Gary Winogrand

[Rob C]

The most offensive word of the 21st century: "offended"

You are pulling my leg. You can not be serious.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Dead serious, Rob.

[Rob C]

Dead serious, Rob.

Let me see if I got this:

You are saying that nobody has the right to feel 'offended', upset, or bloody annoyed if somebody does something unpleasant to them? Are you a genuine pacifist, a monk, or simply feeling a little crazy today?

;-)

Rob

[RSL]

I tend to agree, Stamper. However, the problem is not always risking offending the subject photographed, but offending some of the viewers of Luminous Landscape, as I did when posting an image of a Thai Ladyboy a while back. I'm quite sure the Ladyboy would not have been at all offended by the display of her medical transformation on the internet. 

What the hell is a Thai ladyboy? A katoy?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

You are saying that nobody has the right to feel 'offended', upset, or bloody annoyed if somebody does something unpleasant to them?..

Rob, I am a staunch supporter of freedom and individual liberties. From that perspective, of course you have every right to feel however you want. It is just that that right does not necessarily extend into doing something about it. Especially not turning it into a political movement and ruining people lives in retaliation. Which brings us to the other highlighted words, "does... to them." There is a difference between saying and doing something to somebody. Sticks and stones... etc.

If someone wants to take a picture of my wife or daughter, I'd take that as a compliment. If he, however, does it in such a way to obstruct our movement, I'd push him out of the way.

There is no shortage to all kind of people being "offended" by all kind of things. There is always someone, somewhere, offended by something. Which would be their problem only, until people start losing jobs and careers (and in certain countries freedom or life) for uttering a single word that "offended" someone. You offered a good example of shortening British and Pakistani.

The latest craze here in the States is that certain university professors are lowering grades of their students or failing them for using words like "he, she, male, female, illegal alien," etc.

Or finding a flag "offensive"  and "racist." No, not the Confederate flag, a flag denoting POW and MIA (prisoners of war and missing in action).

[graeme]

There is no shortage to all kind of people being "offended" by all kind of things. There is always someone, somewhere, offended by something. Which would be their problem only, until people start losing jobs and careers (and in certain countries freedom or life) for uttering a single word that "offended" someone. You offered a good example of shortening British and Pakistani.

In the UK 'Paki" has always been used as a racist insult. There is no way that it's an innocent shortening of 'Pakistani'. If it's OK for white people in the UK to use the term 'Paki" then it must be OK for white people in the USA to use the term 'Nigger'.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... then it must be OK for white people in the USA to use the term 'Nigger'.

And if you followed my logic so far, you'd wouldn't surprised to learn that I do think it is OK. That is, outside of the very narrowly defined (by SCOTUS) exclusion from free speech, known as "fighting words."

Oh, by the way, you just used it. And if you were in the States, you just risked losing your job and your career.

[drmike]

In the UK 'Paki" has always been used as a racist insult. There is no way that it's an innocent shortening of 'Pakistani'.

Are you sure? If one said I'm popping to the paki shop - is that an insult? For sure when young (50 years ago) my friends and I would say someone was a Paki if he was, if you see what I mean, and no slur was intended although it was hardly a thoughtful and kind thing to say. As with many things context is king.

[Rob C]

Rob, I am a staunch supporter of freedom and individual liberties. From that perspective, of course you have every right to feel however you want. It is just that that right does not necessarily extend into doing something about it. Especially not turning it into a political movement and ruining people lives in retaliation. Which brings us to the other highlighted words, "does... to them." There is a difference between saying and doing something to somebody. Sticks and stones... etc.

If someone wants to take a picture of my wife or daughter, I'd take that as a compliment. If he, however, does it in such a way to obstruct our movement, I'd push him out of the way.

There is no shortage to all kind of people being "offended" by all kind of things. There is always someone, somewhere, offended by something. Which would be their problem only, until people start losing jobs and careers (and in certain countries freedom or life) for uttering a single word that "offended" someone. You offered a good example of shortening British and Pakistani.

The latest craze here in the States is that certain university professors are lowering grades of their students or failing them for using words like "he, she, male, female, illegal alien," etc.

Or finding a flag "offensive"  and "racist." No, not the Confederate flag, a flag denoting POW and MIA (prisoners of war and missing in action).

Slobodan, your points are serious ones, and refer to people with crazy agendas.

I am 'offended' if somebody sharing a lift with me wilfully farts as if it was normal to do that in lifts (it's never happend yet, but I bet it starts immediately!); I'd feel 'offended' if somebody dropped his pants in the street just as my granddaughters were a yard away from him; I'd feel 'offended' if somebody poured his booze all over my head because he felt like it. A similar list could go on for ever.

The point is, an 'offence' is a real attack on the person offended. Everybody not slightly insane or very badly brought up understands what is acceptable behaviour in a given society. Exceeding those boundaries to the extent of inflicting some inconvenience or unpleasantness upon another person is not a 'right', it's a transgression of normal, civilized behaviour, to which the natural reaction is to feel offended. A younger, fitter person might simply flatten the aggressor.

If you were referring to Political Correctness, I agree with you: that's not sensible behaviour, it's just another face of the same 'offensive' ethic. I should know: they effed my business with calendars pretty damned efficiently, and I never ever did porn of any type; hated it. Also ruined the earning life of many a model, they did, those ugly sisters. Ironically, you see more semi-porn in fashion glossies these days than anywhere else.

Rob

[Rob C]

In the UK 'Paki" has always been used as a racist insult. There is no way that it's an innocent shortening of 'Pakistani'. If it's OK for white people in the UK to use the term 'Paki" then it must be OK for white people in the USA to use the term 'Nigger'.

Well, that's news to me:  there was no Pakistan, neither west nor eastern until August, 1947, there was only India, and folks from there began to come to Britain soon afterwards because Britain granted people from what had previously been the single, united (but with warring factions of) India, passports.

In the British 50s, which I remember too well, most Brits didn't have a clue that there was a difference between Indians and Pakistanis. They all just came from India, period, and Jamaica was considered the major threat. But Paki was certainly not, in my experience, an insult, any more than calling somebody from Scotland a Scottie, a Scot, or a Jock, which isn't what the Americans think of as a jock.

If you want some real experience of discrimination, hear this: before we returned to Britain we lived in Bombay for six weeks or so. There was a famous swimming pool there called Breach Candy, which during the pre-47 period had been reserved for whites. Now, well after '47, during my stay in the city, I'd go swimming in that pool (two, actually: indoors and outside) every day. One day I went to the Eros cinema to watch a movie. To my surprise and joy, sitting right behind me was an Indian boy who'd been in the same school as myself, hundreds of miles away, down in the south. I suggested we go swimming together the next day, and he told me he couldn't go with me: he wouldn't be allowed in. Now get this: that was years after the Brits had given Independence to India. So what gives with color? Isn't it odd that even in an Independent India, folks could be barred from something within their own land because of colour? I felt totally embarrassed, for both of us.

Pakistani/Paki. An abbreviation ain't an insult; the full title can be a insult if the person saying the word means it to be.

People can find insults everywhere; all they need is imagination, will and agenda.

Rob C

[jjj]

Words being offensive rely entirely upon context. Paki in the the UK has become a word only used by bigots and racists therefore it is now just an offensive term here. Then there's different uses of words in say the US and the UK. Someone on here got upset once when IIRC, I used 'Asian' as it seemed that Asian is now a verboten term for Japanese/Chinese in the US. Whereas here in the UK, it simply means someone from India/Pakistan and oddly enough not usually someone who is from other parts of Asia.
The word Nigger in the US is more complex as it is used in wider variety of ways. Both as a nasty racist insult and as a term of endearment for example. The outright horror of using the 'N' word without considering context  is a bit OTT, not to mention the phrase 'the N word' draws even more attention to the fact you are saying 'nigger' and may also stop the word being reclaimed and made a positive term. 'Gay' used to be an insult for homosexuals, however not anymore as it got claimed and remade as a positive term.

[Isaac]

Pakistani/Paki. An abbreviation ain't an insult; the full title can be a insult if the person saying the word means it to be.

Paki: an ​offensive word for a ​person from Pakistan Cambridge Dictionary

Paki: slang offensive Pocket Oxford Dictionary 1992


Yes, Brit is only an abbreviation of British, a phrase often used by Brits abroad to describe themselves.

No, Paki is not only an abbreviation of Pakistan, not a phrase used by people of Pakistani descent to describe themselves but a phrase used by British racists to mark out the other.

But you knew that.

[jjj]

There is a difference between saying and doing something to somebody. Sticks and stones... etc.

That's a very naive and stupid thing to say. People have killed themselves over bullying that never got physical.

In fact judging by your posting on here, you are the sort of person who enjoys verbal bullying and being nasty to to other people, as well as posting thinly veiled homophobic and less veiled misogynistic views. So I'm not surprised that you would object to that sort of unpleasant behaviour being curbed.

[Ray]

What the hell is a Thai ladyboy? A katoy?

You should know, Russ, having lived in Thailand. Yes, Katoey (or Kathoey), but I can't show you any images, although I would say that some of my best 'street photography' contain images of katoeys behaving quite naturally. 

[Christopher Sanderson]

With regret, I lock this topic since not only it has strayed way off topic but is also causing offence.