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Author Topic: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing  (Read 9796 times)

Pete Berry

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2015, 03:00:40 pm »

To clarify my last posting on several points:

First, I used capital letters solely to separate my text more clearly from that I quoted from Tim's previous posting.  It was not my intention to appear to be "shouting!"

Second, while I believe I would have some difficulty attaching a sample photo or two, as Tim usefully (and graciously) requests -- as I have not yet learned how to do that in this forum, I would refer Tim (and anyone else interested) instead to my SmugMug web site.  In the first Gallery there, of recent photos I took in England and France, there are a good number taken on the water, with significant luminosity.  While these photos reproduce to my satisfaction in SmugMug, I have been unable to actually print them to my satisfaction, for reasons already stated.

My SmugMug site is:  JimAscherPhotos@SmugMug.Com or https://jimascherphotos.smugmug.com/

Third, it's actually not Godot who says in "Waiting For Godot" that "Nothing's to be done!"  It's one of the two protagonists in that play who utters those words a number of times.  Godot himself never appears.

Many thanks to all who have joined in to help me so far.  

Jim, it seems I'm the only one to have checked out your images so far, so my comments are restricted to these - which is where the problem lies, IMO. First, all are distinctly dark on my print-calibrated monitor, but there're other problems.

I'll take one for example - the Beach-Sky image which should be a quite luminous image. In checking the histogram, the luminance values are compressed in a very restricted range of 0-200, which is guaranteed to kill any sense of luminance. By simply going into Levels in PS and pulling the luminance input slider in to the 200 point does wonders. Of course you can do it more elegantly in curves. Before and after just the levels adjustment on the image below:

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2015, 03:54:04 pm »

Pete beat me to it.

The entire dynamic range of your images has been compressed. I downloaded the "Boats and Fowl (1)" image and checked Photoshop's histogram and max black point is at 13RGB (sRGB space) and brightest highlight is 224RGB.

One thing that'll reduce the reflectance/luminance of matte white paper under any light is a dense layer of ink in the brightest portions of the image.

I have to constantly fight the tendency to maintain the look of overcast light editing my images too look dark and dim even on glossy paper. I edited your image to max out the DR and maintain tonality (modeling) to the brightest highlights in the water and the image still looks like it's overcast but just a brighter version. I also brought out more detail in the water fowl and boats.

At least I've found someone else with the same perception problem I have.
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digitaldog

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2015, 03:55:59 pm »

The DMax of monitors is higher than the DMax from matte papers (and a good many other papers). If you want to come close to the brilliance and richness of a monitor image you must use a quality luster or gloss paper.
OR calibrate to a fixed contrast ratio and soft proof.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2015, 04:13:17 pm »

And remember the eyes adapt to fixed contrast and brightness levels during long edits staring at a backlit display. Sort of like wearing sunglasses and seeing that as normal lighting and taking them off and experiencing snow blindness. Use the histogram.

I attempted to address the issue in this thread I started a while back...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=89689.0
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 04:19:34 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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JimAscher

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2015, 06:48:20 pm »


...By simply going into Levels in PS and pulling the luminance input slider in to the 200 point does wonders. Of course you can do it more elegantly in curves....


Pete (and Tim):  I am now keen to have a go with the PS luminance input slider, to see if that'll make any useful difference for me.  I think I'll try one from my French trip which I'd earlier wrestled with, achieving no satisfactory sea luminance result.  (It's labeled "Chapel in Shade" on my SmugMug site.)  One further query, however -- all my photos on my site have been converted to and worked on in black-and-white.  Should I apply the luminance slider to the black-and-white, or should I go back to my initial RAW image? 

Thanks again to all for the time you've taken on this matter. 
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Jim Ascher

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Ferp

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2015, 06:50:03 pm »

OR calibrate to a fixed contrast ratio and soft proof.

Agreed.  There are two separate but related questions here:
(i)  Can he get a good screen to print match?
(ii)  Will a matte paper give the look he wants?

The answer to the first question is yes, although print viewing conditions are an important factor.  Also, it's easier with some monitors than others.  No point saying that it can't be done to those who've done it.

The answer to the second question is less clear, and really only the OP can decide that.  I agree that matte paper is better suited to some images than others.

But to suggest that matte is the wrong paper simply because there isn't a good screen to print match is to confuse the two issues.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2015, 07:12:51 pm »

Agreed.  There are two separate but related questions here:
(i)  Can he get a good screen to print match?
(ii)  Will a matte paper give the look he wants?

The answer to the first question is yes, although print viewing conditions are an important factor.  Also, it's easier with some monitors than others.  No point saying that it can't be done to those who've done it.

The answer to the second question is less clear, and really only the OP can decide that.  I agree that matte paper is better suited to some images than others.

But to suggest that matte is the wrong paper simply because there isn't a good screen to print match is to confuse the two issues.

Good way of putting the matter. They are completely separate issues and I think Jim is more concerned about the second.
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John Caldwell

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2015, 07:48:09 pm »

Didn't read the whole post, sorry, and this may well have been covered:  Equally important are the luminance value to which your monitor us calibrated, and conditions of viewing your print.
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Pete Berry

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2015, 08:47:12 pm »

Pete (and Tim):  I am now keen to have a go with the PS luminance input slider, to see if that'll make any useful difference for me.  I think I'll try one from my French trip which I'd earlier wrestled with, achieving no satisfactory sea luminance result.  (It's labeled "Chapel in Shade" on my SmugMug site.)  One further query, however -- all my photos on my site have been converted to and worked on in black-and-white.  Should I apply the luminance slider to the black-and-white, or should I go back to my initial RAW image? 

Thanks again to all for the time you've taken on this matter. 

Jim, to preserve maximum dynamic range I'd recommend going back to your RAW image (I use ACR/PS6) and begin by adjusting the exposure slider until the right end of the histogram approaches the clipping level, then play around with the white level, contrast, and highlight-taming slider to get the brights where you want them. Then adjust shadows for the detail you want. I usually adjust the black level down for a small amount of clipping, as weak blacks can kill color as well as B/W prints.

Since all your images appear dark on my printing-calibrated monitor, it's essential to get your monitor calibrated to a significantly lower luminance level down to where you get a pretty good match with your prints, which will be lighter and more luminous with a little more processing work.

Pete
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2015, 12:49:48 am »

Just make sure the display white luminance level matches the brightness of a blank piece of white paper you'll be printing on lit under the lights you'll being assessing screen to print matches.

If you're editing with PV2012 ACR/LR versions get to know how to override the highlight compression from both Exposure and Highlight sliders in how it flattens highlight detail. This post from a recent thread on retaining paper white texture in artwork...

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102284.msg839248#msg839248

...shows how to maintain tonality in highlight detail while somewhat maximizing luminance as in water and clouds. Note the cloud version on the left looks darker overall but with more modeling over the right version which looks brighter but flatter (very little highlight detail).

The two illustrate what you're experiencing with dark and dim prints. It's very difficult on low dynamic range prints to retain highlight detail as in the cloud on the left and still have the image appear bright. The slider behavior doesn't make things easier either but at least Adobe keeps making improvements. Point curve helps a lot as well.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2015, 01:11:18 am »

While we're on this topic has anyone here come across inkjet paper that doesn't show a glossy shine on both ink and paper finish but prints with a very dense black similar to printing on glossy paper?

I don't have access to professional paper, just checking what others have found here.
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