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Author Topic: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing  (Read 9797 times)

JimAscher

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Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« on: August 19, 2015, 02:36:29 pm »

I suspect this is a problem for which there is no solution.  Long ago I was able to fairly satisfactorily match the “tonality” of my monitor images to my prints.  However, because of the very nature/difference between a rear-projected monitor image and my (preferred) matt printing, I have never been able to match in my printing the particular “luminosity” of the monitor’s image.  This is especially (obviously?) the case when there’s any water in my images, i.e., seaside photos.  I have therefore come to the (very reluctant) conclusion that I’m not going to be able to effectively print photos involving luminous “seascapes,” and this is especially troubling as I reside, and principally photograph, in the area of Washington State bordering on the Pacific Ocean.  Oh, well, maybe I should move to Arizona!
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Jim Ascher

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2015, 02:56:53 pm »

If you softproof with a correct profile and paper white simulated, what you see on the display should match what you get from the printer. However, what you see on the display may still not be what you want if you are looking to reproduce the high luminance and contrast of an inherently bright luminous scene with strong contrast. You will have to move off matte paper and use luster or gloss, which have much higher DMax and gamut.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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howardm

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2015, 03:18:05 pm »

there is also a difference between matte papers and their ability to shadow detail.  what paper(s) are you using?  Printer?

dgberg

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2015, 03:19:38 pm »

Jim,

What printer are you using?

digitaldog

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2015, 03:39:56 pm »

I suspect this is a problem for which there is no solution. 
Sure there is, it's proper display calibration, for each paper, based on the soft proof:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml
You'll never get 100% match but you can get very close, depending on the display and it's calibration robustness.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2015, 03:48:39 pm »

Sure there is, it's proper display calibration, for each paper, based on the soft proof:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml
You'll never get 100% match but you can get very close, depending on the display and it's calibration robustness.

That's part of what I said in Reply #1, but I don't think that's his problem. I think his problem is that he's trying to get more brilliance out of matte paper than it can deliver, no matter how well the display and the print cohere.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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PeterAit

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2015, 04:37:14 pm »

If you softproof with a correct profile and paper white simulated, what you see on the display should match what you get from the printer. However, what you see on the display may still not be what you want if you are looking to reproduce the high luminance and contrast of an inherently bright luminous scene with strong contrast. You will have to move off matte paper and use luster or gloss, which have much higher DMax and gamut.

I think what Mark says is spot-on.
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JimAscher

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2015, 04:42:28 pm »

That's part of what I said in Reply #1, but I don't think that's his problem. I think his problem is that he's trying to get more brilliance out of matte paper than it can deliver, no matter how well the display and the print cohere.

I tend to agree with Mark's assessment.  I use Epson Hot Press Natural.  I forgot to mention, by the way, that I'm a black-and-white photographer, and use three carbon pigment dilutions on my trusty Epson 1400 printer.  (100%, 18% and 6%)  Where "luminosity' is not an issue, I've been getting quite satisfactory prints matching, as I said earlier, the levels of "tonality" I see on the monitor.
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Ferp

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2015, 07:48:39 pm »

Sure there is, it's proper display calibration, for each paper, based on the soft proof:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml
You'll never get 100% match but you can get very close, depending on the display and it's calibration robustness.

I agree.  I'd like to know what the monitor is and how it's calibrated, esp what brightness and white point and black point as discussed in that article.  Brightness especially.  I bet the monitor is too bright for matte soft-proofing.  My experience is that this is (even) more critical for matte than gloss / baryta.  It may be that Jim ultimately may not be able to get the look he wants on matte, but with proper monitor calibration and matching viewing conditions, he should be able to get a fairly close match.

There's also the question of whether he has an ICC profile to soft-proof his custom B&W setup.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2015, 08:43:20 pm »

Quote
Long ago I was able to fairly satisfactorily match the “tonality” of my monitor images to my prints.

Did you guys miss that part of the OP's point? Of course the Jim doesn't say what type of paper he printed on long ago. What changed? Switching to matte paper?

Seaside ocean scenes even in broad daylight present a challenge to digital captures because water tends to be sort of dark depending on whether a polarizing lens filter is used and/or the amount of shine versus shadow differentiation that exists at different shutter releases. Certain parts of the day can reduce the amount of discreet individual tones to look almost posterized especially shooting B&W.

This looks like an editing issue if you shoot color and convert to B&W in post. Individual edits using the HSL sliders to coax more individual tones so the seaside water can be lightened while maintaining contrast without looking flat may be needed.

Jim, could you post a sample image of the scene in question both the color and B&W version if that's how it was captured?
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JimAscher

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2015, 10:01:50 pm »

Did you guys miss that part of the OP's point? Of course the Jim doesn't say what type of paper he printed on long ago. What changed? Switching to matte paper?

I GUESS I STATED THE MATTER A BIT IMPRECISELY. WHAT I MEANT TO SAY WAS THAT "LONG AGO" I BECAME ABLE TO ACHIEVE MATCHING "TONALITY" WITH MY CURRENT MATTE PAPER, I.E., EPSON HOT PRESS NATURAL

...This looks like an editing issue if you shoot color and convert to B&W in post. Individual edits using the HSL sliders to coax more individual tones so the seaside water can be lightened while maintaining contrast without looking flat may be needed.

Jim, could you post a sample image of the scene in question both the color and B&W version if that's how it was captured?

I REGRET I DON'T KNOW HOW TO "POST" PHOTOS IN THIS FORUM, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT ON MY MONITOR I CAN GET EXACTLY THE "TONALITY" AND "LUMINOSITY" I WANT, BUT THE PHOTO ON THE MATTE PAPER MATCHES ONLY THE "TONALITY," NOT THE "LUMINOSITY."  IF I BEGIN TO "COAX" TONES ON THE MONITOR, I (PRESUME) I'LL THEN BE CHANGING THE PHOTO'S APPEARANCE ON THE MONITOR.  I GUESS, REALLY, IT'S THE CHOICE OF MY MATTE PAPER.  IN THE WORDS OF BECKETT'S "GODOT" I GUESS: "NOTHING'S TO BE DONE!"
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JimAscher

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2015, 11:33:00 pm »

To clarify my last posting on several points:

First, I used capital letters solely to separate my text more clearly from that I quoted from Tim's previous posting.  It was not my intention to appear to be "shouting!"

Second, while I believe I would have some difficulty attaching a sample photo or two, as Tim usefully (and graciously) requests -- as I have not yet learned how to do that in this forum, I would refer Tim (and anyone else interested) instead to my SmugMug web site.  In the first Gallery there, of recent photos I took in England and France, there are a good number taken on the water, with significant luminosity.  While these photos reproduce to my satisfaction in SmugMug, I have been unable to actually print them to my satisfaction, for reasons already stated.

My SmugMug site is:  JimAscherPhotos@SmugMug.Com or https://jimascherphotos.smugmug.com/

Third, it's actually not Godot who says in "Waiting For Godot" that "Nothing's to be done!"  It's one of the two protagonists in that play who utters those words a number of times.  Godot himself never appears.

Many thanks to all who have joined in to help me so far.  
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 11:44:54 pm by JimAscher »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2015, 08:23:55 am »

Jim,

This problem is really very simple: you are trying to mix oil and water and hoping to get a smooth savory sauce out of it. Won't happen. The DMax of monitors is higher than the DMax from matte papers (and a good many other papers). If you want to come close to the brilliance and richness of a monitor image you must use a quality luster or gloss paper. Try it for yourself using the correct profiles for each paper and you will come back to the first conclusion you were reaching in this thread.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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William Chitham

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2015, 08:54:06 am »

Dear Jim,
Earlier this year I printed a set of portrait photos to be exhibited in a local theatre, quite large maybe 40" x 30" on Photo Rag. When I went down for the exhibition opening my first reaction was "wow, they've binned my prints and gone with lightboxes!!". They hadn't of course, they had just lit each print with a seperate stage light masked down to a rectangle Combined with the generally low light level in the room the effect was startling. I don't know what situation your prints are displayed in but if you have some control over the lighting that may be a way to cheat some of that luminosity back in.

William Chitham.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2015, 10:03:02 am »

my first reaction was "wow, they've binned my prints and gone with lightboxes!!". They hadn't of course, they had just lit each print with a seperate stage light masked down to a rectangle

Absolutely.  Canon's print display at NAB this year fooled me totally with their use of framing projectors to illuminate their 30" prints.  On close inspection, I was surprised to see my shadow on the print.  What I thought were back lit transparencies were in fact front lit prints.

From exposure to display, lighting is everything.
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Herbc

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2015, 10:49:58 am »

I had a somewhat similar experience.  I have a painter friend who want to see every print on matte-he insisted, so I made him a few. (he was paying for them)
Result, not so good.
Jim, try Canson Baryata satin.  I only print b/w.  It has been accepted in any show I was in.
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Ferp

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2015, 10:56:02 am »

DMax of monitors is higher than the DMax from matte papers (and a good many other papers). If you want to come close to the brilliance and richness of a monitor image you must use a quality luster or gloss paper.

Or dim and adjust the screen to better match the paper.  It can be done.  Once you've done it, you may or may not like the result, but you should be able to get a match.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2015, 11:15:07 am »

As I said before, I don't think his problem is the matching, it's the basic appearance of the print on matte paper relative to his vision of the scene luminescence.
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Paul Roark

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2015, 11:16:59 am »

A print cannot match the brightness of a modern monitor.  A "properly calibrated" monitor would reduce that brightness if its purpose was to match a print, but that is not the purpose of modern monitors.  

I personally toggle between my "printing" profile and my "Netflix" (OEM default) profile by right clicking on my Desktop and pulling up my Nvidia control panel.

For the B&W printing profile, I made it manually by matching the monitor to a test print, lighted as it would be in the display environment.  I used a test print that included tough to match values as well as a 21-step test strip.  The test print was printed with a recently made (via QTR's Create ICC-RGB) ICC, with the image file in Gray Gamma 2.2 workspace, which is what I edit in.

It works very well.

Let me add a few comments that go against the usual assumptions.  For the most "pop" in shows where I'm competing side-by-side with bright color prints, my B&W dyes on metallic paper are very successful.  They are the only B&W medium I've found that gives me a shot at outselling the color painters.  However, sitting in my office next to me is one of those dye prints with a matte carbon print next to it.  The matte carbon print is clearly better, has brighter whites and deeper blacks, with much more depth.  How can this be?  It's all about reflections and lighting.  Which media will look better depends on the display and viewing circumstances.  On the wall and under glass/acrylic in your real world viewing environment, use a spot meter to measure 100% black blocks.  You might be surprised to see the matte dmax exceeds the glossy dmax.  Reflections kill our dynamic range, and that's all we B&W guys have.  With a glossy snapshot, we instinctively move it around to avoid the reflections.  With a print on the wall, it's not so simple.  Most of us do not have ideal gallery lighting in our home and offices.

My next move is going to be to test Tru Vue Museum glass (optically coated anti-reflective glass) with the carbon pigment, matte prints.  In my gallery the pastel artists who have gone to this display style are doing very well with it.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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JimAscher

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Re: Inability To Attain “Luminosity” In Matt Printing
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2015, 11:32:16 am »


Jim, try Canson Baryata satin.  I only print b/w.  It has been accepted in any show I was in.

Herb:  In researching your recommended Canson Baryata Satin on the internet, it seems I wouldn't be able to employ my preferred carbon pigment inks with it.  But thanks for the suggestion.

The responses here from everyone to my query (and dilemma) have been very much appreciated, with the end result being only for me to recognize the limitations of the materials I have chosen to work with, and hopefully be able to tweak them sufficiently to conform to an ultimately satisfactory output.
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Jim Ascher

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