State of the art high quality on demand books printer

[Czornyj]

For fun next time, print the cover and inside book with the same image. One's not going to match your display because they grossly don't match each other. At least in the two tests I did with Blurb. It's a different printing process. They should ideally match.

I've heard that graphistudio.com has Indigo 10000 (B2+) with grey ink, so they should print covers and the rest using the same technology. The samples that I saw were not bad. The B&W results from normal CMYK Indigo 5600 were not that impressive, to put it mildly.

[Czornyj]

Thanks for the feedbacks.

Colors are overall not that bad with Blurb, but the detail and overall feel of the image is disappointing compared to the ink jets I am getting from my Epson. By a large margin.

My mother is using a cheaper on demand service in Belgium and the print quality is significantly superior.

Regards,
Bernard

I'm printing books on my iPF and give it to bookbinder. There's also a couple of book printers who print them on water based inkjet printers (like my friend's - qtalbums.com).

Another interesting option is Canon DreamLabo 5000 - it was introduced on last Drupa, so maybe somone is using it already. It uses 7 dye inks - C, PC, M, PM, Y, K, GY and very strong GCR, so the prints are neutral, with perfect tonality and stunning contrast. The only drawback of that beast was the sick price and service costs...

[Mark D Segal]

Thanks for the feedbacks.

Colors are overall not that bad with Blurb, but the detail and overall feel of the image is disappointing compared to the ink jets I am getting from my Epson. By a large margin.

My mother is using a cheaper on demand service in Belgium and the print quality is significantly superior.

Regards,
Bernard

Bernard, it's a mistake to compare the prints in one of these books with inkjets from your Epson - the latter has much wider gamut and superior DMax by virtue of the differences of the processes -  in general. Periodically one sees large commercial press output that comes close, but you'll pay for it. You'd get a better idea of the Blurb quality by comparing a softproof simulation on your display with the actual Blurb output. I know there is an RGB vs CMYK profile issue doing this, but one can find RGB profiles for papers that would reasonably well simulate what the Blurb output should look like. If the book fails that comparison, then you can suspect output quality is below its potential.

[Mark D Segal]

The price for an equivalent size and pagecount from Pikto was over twice the Blurb price.  This may be different now with the recent adjustment to the Canadian dollar.

Peter, yes, Pikto is comparatively expensive; but have you compared their quality against Blurb? I'm asking objectively, because I've had good quality output from both, but a sample of one in each case, and different kind of photos, so I couldn't make this comparison. It would be interesting if someone were prepared to send the same material to both services, small page count of a variety of photos, just to see whether the price difference is worthwhile. In the final analysis I suspect what we're seeing here is partly a difference of scale economies - but who knows, could be partly due to process/materials quality as well.

[Jglaser757]

I'm creating a catalogue using picaboo. I Looked at blurb, pitko and a few others.Pitko was my second choice, but I did not like the choice of layouts and and ease of use.

[Mark D Segal]

I'm printing books on my iPF and give it to bookbinder.

Exactly what I do, but from my Epson 4900. Uncompromised quality for sure, and totally under my control; but talk about expensive and time-consuming. Four years ago I wrote an article about it on this website. (I see the images for that article are all wrong - need to get to Kevin about that!), and these days I'm doing it with IGFS, not Enhanced Matte. Despite the thicker paper, the concept works just as well. I've also expanded the scope into larger-scale books, binding 13*19 inch (Super A3) sheets. I limit these to about 65 pages, otherwise they are too heavy and unwieldy.

[aaronchan]

Another interesting option is Canon DreamLabo 5000 - it was introduced on last Drupa, so maybe somone is using it already. It uses 7 dye inks - C, PC, M, PM, Y, K, GY and very strong GCR, so the prints are neutral, with perfect tonality and stunning contrast. The only drawback of that beast was the sick price and service costs...

The DreamLabo 5000 has a in-line book making system. But the fact is this machine is way too expensive. I have direct contact to Canon and even their sales rep said this machine is more like a props for them rather than a profitable product.

The indigo is a good machine, but not the best. One of the best printing company in Asia let go the indigo and adopt Screen digital press. I have talked to their management group and their reply was interesting, they said the indigo is a good machine, but the stability and quality is not even close to the Screen digital press. I do kind of understand why they said Screen makes better machine. Screen makes CTP for a really long time for Offset printing and they really did put a lot of power on screening technology. When it comes to perss or digital press, sceening technology is really important, I think in some cases is more important than how many ink types it has.

Just my thoughts.

aaron

[Czornyj]

The DreamLabo 5000 has a in-line book making system. But the fact is this machine is way too expensive. I have direct contact to Canon and even their sales rep said this machine is more like a props for them rather than a profitable product.

The indigo is a good machine, but not the best. One of the best printing company in Asia let go the indigo and adopt Screen digital press. I have talked to their management group and their reply was interesting, they said the indigo is a good machine, but the stability and quality is not even close to the Screen digital press. I do kind of understand why they said Screen makes better machine. Screen makes CTP for a really long time for Offset printing and they really did put a lot of power on screening technology. When it comes to perss or digital press, sceening technology is really important, I think in some cases is more important than how many ink types it has.

Just my thoughts.

aaron

AFAIK Screen makes only CMYK inkjet digital presses. While I can imagine that inkjet process can give better results than HP Indigo's Electroink (e.g. the above mentioned DreamLabo really kicked ass), I doubt it will give optimal results in case of B&W images. Another limitation is the small variety of papers, and the unpleasant stickiness of inkjet coated media (another drawbacks of DreamLabo).

Indigo can print on virtually anything using up to 7 channels - my friend works in R&D on Indigo screening and separations improvement, and the results he showed me were interesting. There's also significant quality difference between Indigo 5000 series and 7000/10000 series.

[aaronchan]

AFAIK Screen makes only CMYK inkjet digital presses. While I can imagine that inkjet process can give better results than HP Indigo's Electroink (e.g. the above mentioned DreamLabo really kicked ass), I doubt it will give optimal results in case of B&W images. Another limitation is the small variety of papers, and the unpleasant stickiness of inkjet coated media (another drawbacks of DreamLabo).

Indigo can print on virtually anything using up to 7 channels - my friend works in R&D on Indigo screening and separations improvement, and the results he showed me were interesting. There's also significant quality difference between Indigo 5000 series and 7000/10000 series.

I didn't say Indigo is not good at all, it is a really good digital press, but with certian limitation.
1. I have talked to a lot of on site indigo operator, 80% of them said the system is a bit hard to work with by some how. (I haven't spent too much time on indigo, at least not like them as a day by day operator, so I can't really comment on that)
2. You said it can print on virtually anything, yes, virtually. Indigo does require special coating on paper to get optimal result. When it prints on uncoated paper, it can go really bad.
3. 7 channels is great, specially they can mix a lot of special color in it. But not the clear and the white ink. None of the digital press can do good white ink and clear ink, besides MGI, which is specialized for Spot UV ONLY. And for white ink, just go with either silk screen or UV-curing, they are they best solution.

I would like to see if anyone has a DreamLabo in Asia, as long as I know, Canon had demo once in Australia, but not even in China.

To me, on-demand book print is very mature already. No offensive, but in Lula, I think most of my friend here are very picky, too picky compare to the mass market. An indigo 7/10000 cost more than a M-Benz S class with all 7 channels and other module, how many book needs to be printed to gain the investment back, that's a tough question to ask.

So you are right, the best way to print a very decent book is to print it by ourselves and either learn how to bind it or send it out for someone who is profession in it. Otherwise, Blurb, Adorama, Bayphoto or Artisan should be good enough for everyday picture.

aaron

[Czornyj]

Sure - it's not the easiest system I ever saw. The variety of media for Indigo is impressive, and you can prime stock paper. And yes, you can print white ink - I saw Graphistudio's pretty impressive samples printed on dyed cardboard.

There are some press notes about DreamLabo installations in India:
http://www.printweek.in/News/394138,ard-foto-opts-for-canon-dreamlabo-5000.aspx
http://www.canon.co.in/personal/news/detail/PR-27-March-2015?languageCode=EN
http://www.printweek.in/News/390247,kochi-gets-its-first-dreamlabo.aspx

Sure - many LuLa members are spoiled by the quality of water based inkjet, which unreachable in high volume digital printing (DreamLabo comes pretty close, but only on shitty-plasticky media). That was the reason of why Bernard created that topic, I suppose...

[Ernst Dinkla]

You can expect new technology in that market segment. Page wide head assemblies from the major inkjet head manufacturers must result in fast digital presses for book printing. In the office printers segment HP already has the A4 OfficeJet Pro X models, Memjet is more successful in label presses with wider page width. Wider web and sheet based presses are working with HP, Epson, Océ head technology. More companies on that route too. It will be a matter of diversification in the range between speed and image quality and at some point 7 ink page wide presses will be used. Then there is Benny Landa with a new concept (after he sold the Indigo technology to HP) which uses the blanket of offset printing, the ink distribution of inkjet and let us say the fusing of electro-static printing. That could make the use of a variety of papers on one press possible. Maybe that complexity is not needed, HP relies on the inline application of a binder to uncoated paper so the inkjet ink is fixed as it hits the coated paper. Sounds more simple.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Czornyj]

DreamLabo 5000 uses 7 page wide print heads, but it's a lil' bit pricy

Inkjet storms production printing market, but it leaves open questions whether there will be double side, multi channel solutions (not to mention fancy media)...

[Alan Klein]

Does anyone make a book binder that you can add your own prints and assemble the book yourself?

[na goodman]

I use the Unibind system with a few modifications.

[Ernst Dinkla]

DreamLabo 5000 uses 7 page wide print heads, but it's a lil' bit pricy

Inkjet storms production printing market, but it leaves open questions whether there will be double side, multi channel solutions (not to mention fancy media)...

It is silly priced compared to other (dry) minilab systems, among them machines that also make books. It aims at photo lab environments, usually smaller sized shops. Photo book printing companies often are former offset book printers that went to digital printing at the right time and adapted to the market changes. Printing on demand is one side of the medal, binding and distribution the other side. I have seen this happen with Paro in The Netherlands that is now part of RPI. http://www.rpiprint.com/ They developed special book binding systems for this purpose. The print quality is more or less dictated by companies like Blurb. You need similar organisations if a higher print quality market has to be created. Then more expensive machines with a higher volume capacity will be bought.

I think Canon's inkjet head technology was aimed a bit late at the concept of page wide inkjet head arrays. Memjet, HP, Océ, Kodak and Epson were ahead of Canon in that field. Next to increasing its market share Canon must have purchased Océ for its inkjet technologies in office, web and sign printing. There is now a wide format model for CAD based on Memjet head arrays. Colorwave 900. Océ Jetstream web machines existed already. Etc. None have Canon inkjet heads. Océ was not handicapped by its inventions, more by getting them into the market: http://global.oce.com/company/technologies.aspx

Dual sided inkjet web printing exists already. Océ, HP and probably more companies.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[luxborealis]

This will be a bit off-topic, but it's a solution for presenting/selling high quality "reproductions" of your digital files.

For the last few years, I've been creating folios of my work. Each folio has between 12 and 24 photographs printed on 9½x13" sheets (½ of a 19x13) with a title page, descriptor page, artist statement and/or bio all enclosed in a stiff paper, wraparound cover I make myself (with fine art paper an exacto, scorer and steel ruler - quite simple, actually). These are similar to the folios introduced by Brooks Jensen over at LensWork. The beauty of them is that I control the quality throughout the process.

There aren't as many pages as a book (although it's possible to do more than 24), and perhaps a little more inconvenient (although that's more a result of unfamiliarity), but there seems to be a higher level of satisfaction and "wow factor" sitting on a couch, leafing through actual prints, getting the feel (and smell) of natural paper (I use Moab Entada Rag Natural which has a gorgeous feel). Maybe fewer pages is better as I have yet to see a book that doesn't suffer from a lack of tough editing to weed out the weaker photographs.

Anyway, Google "LensWork folios" if you're interested.

[HSakols]

Magcloud was bought out by Blurb recently. Too bad.

I have seen three books from Mag Cloud created by talented photographers that in my opinion were superb- Granted they needed to get the kinks out on the first printing. Does this mean that Blurp will now offer a more consistent product or .....? 

[Peter McLennan]

Peter, yes, Pikto is comparatively expensive; but have you compared their quality against Blurb?

No, Mark. I've never seen a Pikto book, let alone done AB comparisons with Blurb.  My 75 page book cost me about $80 per copy with Blurb.  Painful, but do-able.  Pikto was pushing perilously close to $200 for a similar spec publication.

You mention self-printing and binding by others.  This was what I attempted first.  What stumped me was the production difficulties in producing a full-bleed double page spread.  Effortless with Blurb, nearly impossible with my Epson 4800, "borderless" printing notwithstanding.  Also, printing on double-sided media and keeping the page orientation correct as you complete the 75-page production print run isn't for the faint of heart.  How lovely, simple and gratifying to receive totally satisfying product from Blurb the first time out.

It may not meet with the approval of the one percent, but it certainly does with the other ninety-nine.  I really believe it's a case of perfection being the enemy of completion.  Everyone who sees my first attempt at a book (photographers and the rank and file) is amazed by the quality.  Me, too.  And that's what really counts for me.

Besides, the writing part and graphic design part was WAY harder than the photography part.

[Mark D Segal]

From what I've seen, that price spread is hard to justify. And yes, given what you were doing, perfection could well have been the enemy of the good. I think it is anyhow a mistake to compare these press products against inkjet prints from our Epson Pro printers. Different animals.

[Ernst Dinkla]

State of the art high production inkjet printing:
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/graphic_systems/digital_inkjet_press/jet_press720s/#overview

Adding extra Fuji Film's Samba page wide heads for extra ink channels/color will not be the problem. They squirt 2 picoliter droplets already. It can handle 127 to 300 gr/m2 sheets, coated and uncoated paper, the last gets an inline coating.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots