Topic: All round Paper Recommendation -Roll for P800 (Read 10946 times)

ThirstyDursty · « **on:** August 07, 2015, 02:16:02 am »

I just pulled the pin and bought an Epson P800. In the mail as we speak.

I was offered a full show at a small local gallery. So I get to fill three 5meter walls with my works. Just seemed like a good time to take control of the printing...and maybe framing (but clock is ticking).

I got the roll feeder option.

As I now feel poor! After this investment...I'm hoping some people might suggest a good all-round fine art paper.

I'm guessing Epson paper is probably the way to go till I learn to profile etc? showing in the exhibition will be my primary concern.

I have a mix of high contrast BW images and saturated colour images.

For a few of shows I've done to date, I used Kodak Metallic Paper, which is a traditional reactive photo process. But it has worked well for both.

I tried a Hahnemuhle German Etching paper for my last show and while very different, found worked great for my lower contrast BW and pastely/watercoloury colours like blue hour shots.

Want to buy a roll and try and print the entire show on the one roll this time if possible.

I'm thinking Epson Hot Press Bright or Premium Luster (but this only comes in 16inch roll rather the 17...which I guess I could deal with if best option

Or should I really buy two papers to start?

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howardm · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2015, 08:21:35 am »

if sticking w/ one paper, I think it'd be worth getting a sample pack and try 'most' of them and see.

I kinda doubt HPB is going to be it and I'd hate to see you buy a roll only to be disappointed and really stressed out.
As you discovered Hhan German Etching and matte papers simply do not have the dMax or gamut.

If it was me, I'd lean toward something in the baryta family like Hahn Baryta, Canson Baryta, Ilford GFS, Innova IFA69 (all of which are probably the same or very close to the same paper). Or the Hahn PR Pearl (or FA Pearl) but honestly, the Epson Lustre will work well too, it's just not generally considered FineArt (if that's an important factor) and
other longevity issues that are often discussed here. I will say that PR Pearl & FA Pearl are awesome!

It'd be worth the $20 or so for a sample pack before you dump $hundred+ into a roll w/ your fingers crossed.

Ping me if you want/need a custom profile.

You might also want to consider having a spare LK and LLK cart on-hand.

edit: The Harman Baryta is also fantastic w/ a real darkroom vibe but in my personal experience, the surface is more fragile than most other baryta's and it will scuff if you look at it the wrong way

so it may not be a good choice when the pressure is on.

Mark D Segal · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2015, 08:55:39 am »

While Epson makes some good papers and they provide good profiles with them, there is no need to confine your options if profiling is your main concern. Some of the paper manufacturers' profiles are good these days. But you would want to test with sample packs before committing to a roll. Once you find a paper you really like best, you may wish to consider ordering a custom profile from - say, Onsight or Digital Dog, as this is a gallery show - their fees are not high and it could be worthwhile, just to make sure you are getting the best possible rendition from the printer. Recall, you are investing a lot of time, ink and paper in this. I would NOT recommend using Epson Premium Luster or any other such paper with a high OBA content for a gallery exhibition. The OBA fading issue is not a good selling point. As Howard suggests, the Baryta-based papers are worth focusing on for DMax and gamut.

Jager · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2015, 09:31:54 am »

Congrats on both the exhibition and the new printer. The P800 is a great printer.

Since you mention the clock is ticking, at least for now I'd plan on having framing done elsewhere. Printmaking is something of an art in itself and you've already taken quite a lot on - sorting out a new printer, selecting a paper, and then getting gallery-grade prints done.

The HPB, a matte-black paper, and Premium Luster, a photo-black paper, are very different media. Kinda like asking if we should do Chinese or Mexican?

Well, yes.

The sample pack is a great idea. As are the suggestions to maybe lean towards a Baryta-style glossy paper. Those papers tend to present well with a wide range of imagery, in color and black and white.

Have fun! Printmaking is a joy, the proper denouement to good photography. Good luck with the show...

ThirstyDursty · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2015, 09:58:01 am »

I'm excited and thank you. I might contact digidog, as he's been personally very helpful to date. Which will open up a few more options. I just can't afford heaps of messing around.

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David Good · « **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2015, 04:27:20 pm »

Another option, if looking for a fine art matte paper, is Epson's line of Hot or Cold Press papers. Michael wrote a review on these four papers:
https://luminous-landscape.com/four-new-fine-art-papers-from-epson-for-2010/
Personal choice would come down to texture and whether you want OBA's present or not. It's reasonably priced and available in 17" rolls.

ThirstyDursty · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2015, 08:42:23 pm »

I've picked up an Epson Signature Worthy Sample pack. Now hoping printer arrives Monday...as I've got itchy feet.

All this is happening in good time as a retail shop gallery / local art shop in Adelaide's main shopping outdoor mall (Rundle Mall) approached me yesterday about selling some of my work through their shop.

They want a few bigger pieces and multiple of small matted standard sizes for frames A4-2. Customer to provide own frame. I supply shop with matted print in plastic sleeves. I'll be looking for a source of bulk pre-cut mats and packaging now

When it rains....it pours!

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hugowolf · « **Reply #7 on:** August 08, 2015, 12:27:12 am »

Paper selection is a very personal thing, and I would second or third getting sample packs, especially from Canson and Hahnemühle.

Hahnemühle German Etching is a great and under rated paper, and not too expensive paper. Canson BFK Rives is a really excellent soft textured (velvet) art paper, but much more expensive. Epson Velvet Fine Art is another excellent fine art paper, although a little lightweight for some applications.

The Epson Hot and Cold pressed bright and natural papers are also well priced, for 100% cotton.

Personally, I think that Canson Rag Photographique is the best smooth cotton paper available; definitely a notch above Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308. Also much whiter than the Epson Hot Press(ed) natural, and without the OBAs of the Epson ‘bright’.

Epson Lustre, Premium, Ultra Premium, or otherwise, is just another high OBA RC lustre paper. There are plenty of at-least-as-good alternatives in 17”. As Howard mentioned, if you want a better lustre/silk/pearl/satin/semi-matte/photo-matte paper, then look at the barytas. [I could have sworn that I have a roll of 17” Epson Lustre, perhaps they stopped cutting it that width?]

All the major paper manufactures and distributors supply profiles, most of which are very good nowadays. You may have to wait a few weeks for P800 profiles from some.

Brian A

howardm · « **Reply #8 on:** August 08, 2015, 09:33:02 am »

FYI: take a look at Innova IFA22 as a heavier weight clone(-ish) of VFA and it's got zero OBA which is nice.

Again, if you are going to settle on *one* all-purpose, kick-ass paper, the contents of the Sig. Worthy pack may not contain what you want.

Mark D Segal · « **Reply #9 on:** August 08, 2015, 10:44:49 am »

Quote from: howardm on August 08, 2015, 09:33:02 am

FYI: take a look at Innova IFA22 as a heavier weight clone(-ish) of VFA and it's got zero OBA which is nice.

Again, if you are going to settle on *one* all-purpose, kick-ass paper, the contents of the Sig. Worthy pack may not contain what you want.

The OP's problem with Innova IFA22 may be that they do not appear to have an ICC profile for that paper with the Epson P800 printer yet.

As important, I think the OP has a fundamental artistic decision to make about two things: (i) does it make sense to settle on "one all purpose kick-ass" paper? Is there such a thing, in respect of his/her photos and the potential purchasers? (ii) closely related - what's more important for the specific photo: gamut and Maximum Black or the look and feel of the paper. The velvety look and feel comes at quite a price in terms of gamut and Maximum Black. For example, for the Epson P800 using HPN (we have the profile and HPN is the paper to which Innova IFA22 would be keyed, therefore indicative), maximum black L*=14, and gamut volume is 479,849. My profile for the Epson P800 using IGFS has maximum black L* = 2 (much blacker) and gamut volume of 757,985, or about 58% more.

I could envision a situation - not knowing the OPs photos of course - wherein the OP may be better served settling on one matte and one luster paper, depending on what the individual photos need. In preparing for a gallery show, I would think it worthwhile testing this proposition buying a small amount of one of each (sheets, not rolls) and playing a bit.

howardm · « **Reply #10 on:** August 08, 2015, 10:59:53 am »

It was NOT my intention to suggest that the OP use IFA22 for this project. My statement was kind of directed to Brian because I agree w/ him that VFA feels 'light' in some cases and was suggesting something that might fit the bill for quite similar but heavier.

I maintain that in order to get the project done as well as possible in the shortest time w/ least amount of hair pulling and ink swaps etc etc, something like a baryta or Canson Platine is the way to go given his original statement that many of the prints have high contrast & saturated colors, both of which contra-indicate most any matte unless there is some other factor driving the decision.

edit: I may have said this before but the offer stands: if the OP decides on a paper that doesn't yet have a mfgr profile, I'd be willing to make one for him. All he has to do is PM me and inquire.

Mark D Segal · « **Reply #11 on:** August 08, 2015, 11:01:47 am »

Understood, and I agree for those image types this should be the most appropriate solution.

ThirstyDursty · « **Reply #12 on:** August 09, 2015, 03:59:19 am »

Quote from: howardm on August 08, 2015, 10:59:53 am

edit: I may have said this before but the offer stands: if the OP decides on a paper that doesn't yet have a mfgr profile, I'd be willing to make one for him. All he has to do is PM me and inquire.

You did and it is much appreciated. I'll almost certainly be touching base once I'm up and running.

I've ordered s few more sample packs.

I've not had much experience with paper choices to date, as the printer services I've used had limited choice.

Looking forward to my art maturing through additional control and more thoughtful presentation (paper, mat frame etc)...end to end control.

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ThirstyDursty · « **Reply #13 on:** August 09, 2015, 04:26:15 am »

The company I bought the printer from (imagescience) has kindly offered to create 4 custom ICC profiles for me once I decide on paper.

I print a target image and courier/mail it to them. And they email me a profile.

They offered this for free, as part of the printer's purchase.

If your in Australia...they've been good to me.

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howardm · « **Reply #14 on:** August 09, 2015, 08:47:13 am »

That was awfully nice of them. Do take them up on that! I have heard good things about them as a vendor.

Good luck w/ this project and congratulations! Hopefully it will be the start of something.

lelouarn · « **Reply #15 on:** August 10, 2015, 07:14:22 am »

I'm considering an R800 myself, and one question comes to mind: how different is it to print on a roll compared to cut sheet ?
Could this influence the choice of paper - perhaps some are easier to decurl than others ?

I have a very modest experience with roll papers (I have printed some panoramas), and I have never been able to completely decurl my roll-prints (but I only know a thick paper, Epson Premium Glossy).
But perhaps all papers are similar with regards to this aspect...

howardm · « **Reply #16 on:** August 10, 2015, 08:01:51 am »

Quote from: lelouarn on August 10, 2015, 07:14:22 am

I'm considering an R800 myself, and one question comes to mind: how different is it to print on a roll compared to cut sheet ?
Could this influence the choice of paper - perhaps some are easier to decurl than others ?

I have a very modest experience with roll papers (I have printed some panoramas), and I have never been able to completely decurl my roll-prints (but I only know a thick paper, Epson Premium Glossy).
But perhaps all papers are similar with regards to this aspect...

As a 3880 user, here are my thoughts.........

the roll adaptor is overpriced @ $200 (1/5th the cost of the printer)
the 800 doesnt have a cutter or vacuum hold down
how many pano's are you really going to do? I thought I'd do lots but in reality, not many and 99% are less than 37" limit of the 3880
are you going to do 'production' printing (lots of unattended printing, esp on fine art)?
how are you going to de-curl and store the rolls?
the rolls are less expensive than cut sheet
easier use of oddball media that may not be available in cut sheet (or you could simply cut down from a roll)
RIPs like Printfab are approx the cost of the roll holder
could/would you fashion your own from a broom stick or something?
do you use a wide range of papers ? (ie. hassle of mounting the roll vs. open a box of cut sheet)

Mark D Segal · « **Reply #17 on:** August 10, 2015, 10:54:02 am »

Quote from: howardm on August 10, 2015, 08:01:51 am

As a 3880 user, here are my thoughts.........

the roll adaptor is overpriced @ $200 (1/5th the cost of the printer)
the 800 doesnt have a cutter or vacuum hold down
how many pano's are you really going to do? I thought I'd do lots but in reality, not many and 99% are less than 37" limit of the 3880
are you going to do 'production' printing (lots of unattended printing, esp on fine art)?
how are you going to de-curl and store the rolls?
the rolls are less expensive than cut sheet
easier use of oddball media that may not be available in cut sheet (or you could simply cut down from a roll)
RIPs like Printfab are approx the cost of the roll holder
could/would you fashion your own from a broom stick or something?
do you use a wide range of papers ? (ie. hassle of mounting the roll vs. open a box of cut sheet)

In his review of the P800 printer, Keith Cooper found that printing from rolls using the roll holder works very well - and he examined this quite extensively.

The pricing of roll versus sheets depends on the paper manufacturer, the packaging and on how carefully one manages the use of the square inches on the roll. For example, IGFS here in Toronto from my supplier works out to about $0.013/ sq.in. for a package of 50 13*19 inch sheets, or $ 0.014 for a roll of 17" by 39 ft or $0.012 for a roll of 44" by 40 ft.

I agree with the view here to look carefully about what you need before buying. For example, I've produced only several panos requiring the roll feed in the going-on to 4 years I am using my 4900. I'm obviously not alone in this, why Epson provides it as an accessory for the P800 rather than built-in. .

howardm · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2015, 11:07:18 am »

using just that IGFS as an example, a cut sheet 13x19 costs $3.21 where a roll-based 13x19 is 3.88 *assuming* you dont 'recycle' the 4x19 waste. And not addressed is overall waste due to headers and footers so add another 1-3"x19" waste (guessing)

I suppose amortization of the roll holder should also be factored in somehow.

I think the Canson papers tend to show more cost differential between cut & roll but I dont remember exactly.

hokuahi · « **Reply #19 on:** August 10, 2015, 05:31:17 pm »

Without getting into the nitty gritty of profiling, cost per print, etc, etc, it is the 'fun' factor that works for me. Being slightly smaller than my 3880 I have it next to my work station. Right now I'm using the roll attachment with EPL and just being able to run off a print without having to get up and walk around and load paper by the sheet is just plain fun. The prints flatten after being on a flat surface overnight and admittedly this is the beginning of the roll that may change as it nears the end.

Others have commented on the accuracy of the available profiles and without too much elaboration I can echo those comments, at least for the Epson Hot and Cold press paper, EPL, and both the available Hanemuhle and Canson profiles for various matte and luster papers.

For anyone sitting on the fence and wondering about purchasing, let me just say I'd definitely purchase it again if I needed to.

Author Topic: All round Paper Recommendation -Roll for P800 (Read 10946 times)