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Author Topic: Some compact system thoughts  (Read 46647 times)

John Camp

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Some compact system thoughts
« on: August 03, 2015, 01:59:53 pm »

This is a riff on the discussion taking place in the thread called "4/3 vs Nikon APS-C."

I have both full frame and m4/3 systems (and a Sony RX100compact and a cell phone camera) and I've found that the handier the camera is, the more you tend to give up in terms of control.

But to limit the discussion to interchangeable lens cameras, I've found that discussion tends to revolve around four aspects of these various-sized cameras: physical size (dimensions and weight), lens speed, depth of field aspects and sensor qualities.

The advantages and disadvantages of physical size is pretty obvious to all of us, and I think is really a matter of personal preference, a balancing of all the different ways we may shoot as individuals. Your best system isn't mine, simply because we shoot in different ways and may have different subject interests.

It's figuring out the other aspects that's tough.

I would suggest (as I did in the earlier thread) that lens speed (at least in terms of a one-stop difference) is not as important as it was with film, because digital ISO abilities are so much better. In film, I really felt handicapped in terms of quality even shooting at ISO800. I think digital has a two- or three-stop advantage here, which means that an f4 lens may practically be as good as an f2.8 used to be.

Except for depth of field. Here there are two aspects. You have less depth of field control with a smaller sensor (like a m4/3 compared to FF) for any given lens speed. But is depth of field control really important in general purpose lenses? (This is an actual question of mine, not a rhetorical one.) How often do we want to limit depth of field in general shooting, and how much depth of field control do we practically have with f2.8 zoom lenses on even a FF camera? Isn't depth of field control really something you want to deal with in specific circumstances, for which an even faster, more specialized lens would be more effective? The practical effect of this question comes from the other thread, where somebody pointed out that depth of field with an m4/3 system's f2/8 is more like the equivalent of f5.6 of a full-frame system, while a FF's f4 is the f4 we're all accustomed to. But is depth of field really a matter of interest in choosing between f4 and f5.6-equivalent?

Then there are pixel questions. A lot of high quality cameras seem to be settling on offerings in the mid-20s (24-26mp.) The next Panny GX8 will have ~20mp. People have argued since the dawn of digital about the  storage capacity of larger vs. smaller pixels, and also about the printing abilities of different numbers of pixels. Is there really a discernible difference between ~20mp and ~25mp at common, fairly large (say full-page large format magazine) sizes? Do marginally larger individual pixel sizes make more difference than the camera's processing engines that produce the final image?

In the guitar world, some people obsess about the sounds produced by vintage, usually incredibly expensive (now) instruments like the '59 Les Paul and the older Strats and so on, but a friend of mine pointed out that given all the different skill levels, by the time you run the signal through a couple of stomp boxes and maybe a looper and out an amp, and given all the different acoustic qualities you might have in any given room, you're sometimes lucky you can tell that it's a guitar being played, much less a quarter-million-dollar 59 LP. Are the analogous qualities true of cameras? That by the time you finish running a scene through your personal technique (tripod, no tripod), the autofocus, the lens glass, the sensors, Lightroom, and finally the printer...does it really matter much whether it's an m4/3 or a Nikon D800?
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Ken Bennett

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2015, 02:50:45 pm »

But...but....blah-blah-blah-Full Frame!  I win!  :)

Your guitar analogy is pretty apt, and works well for other aspects of the camera buying decision as well. I've always told myself that I won't buy a "better" guitar until my (pathetic) skills are such that I can tell the difference when I play. That's going to be awhile. People ask me the "what camera should I buy" question all the time, and I tell them the same thing - get a basic camera with the features you want, one which feels good in the hand, and don't spend a lot of money until the basic camera can no longer shoot what you want.

The sensor size/camera size choice comes down to individual need and preference. We're all different, and there is no one perfect system for everyone (or else we would all own it already).
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Telecaster

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 04:32:38 pm »

I find I can get what I want from everything I currently own camera- & lens-wise. The limiting factor pretty much equates to me:)  My own standard for DOF control is an 85mm (or so) lens at f/2 using the 35mm format, or the equivalent thereof with other formats. For m43 I've got the Voigtländer 42.5/0.95, which hits the nail on the head…and moreso, given that it focuses down to near-macro range. And, actually, the little Olympus 45/1.8 fits the bill most of the time despite its narrower DOF. I just adjust my strategy & technique a bit. At the other end of the DOF equation I like that I can get deep focus with lenses used in the f/4–8 range. In low light this helps offset the noise advantage of larger formats. (I'm referring to chroma noise. Luminance noise, OTOH, is something I often deliberately intensify regardless of format.) Resolution-wise…I don't print large enough these days to be limited by any of the cameras/formats I use. My main interest in Sony's A7rii actually lies in processing the RAW data down to ~10.5mp true(r) RGB output. That's enough for my needs.

I sold my '58 Stratocaster about 18 months ago after finding a new one (made, to a very high standard, in Mexico) that does everything I need a Strat to do & does it well. Given that I'm not much of a Strat guy anyway, the oldie represented mostly unused value. Selling it paid for the new one and also bought me a new super-efficient furnace as well as a roof re-shingle & all new gutters. Win-win.

-Dave-
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Rand47

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 05:00:31 pm »

DOF "control" - as in issue - cracks me up.  I've been making photographs for 50+ years and for 40 of those the problem has always been getting "enough" DOF, not pursuing razor thin slices!   ;D

Rand
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LesPalenik

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 10:41:53 pm »

DOF "control" - as in issue - cracks me up.  I've been making photographs for 50+ years and for 40 of those the problem has always been getting "enough" DOF, not pursuing razor thin slices!   ;D

Rand

+1
That has been my own experience. I realize that some people like or even need the razor thin DOF, but I seldom shoot wide open, and try to use either the sweet spot of the lens or smaller aperture to extend the DOF. I was thinking long and hard when buying recently a 70-200mm lens, trying to decide between F2.8 and F4 (having already some F2.8 primes), finally went for F4 version and am very happy with that lens.

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John Camp

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 11:06:49 pm »

+1
That has been my own experience. I realize that some people like or even need the razor thin DOF, but I seldom shoot wide open, and try to use either the sweet spot of the lens or smaller aperture to extend the DOF. I was thinking long and hard when buying recently a 70-200mm lens, trying to decide between F2.8 and F4 (having already some F2.8 primes), finally went for F4 version and am very happy with that lens.

That's one of the reasons I started this thread, to figure out exactly how the digital age fits with our old film preconceptions. I think once a lot of people didn't use zooms because they were heavy and slow; with the great improvement in high ISO quality, do we really even need f2.8 for most of our shooting? Is there any real use (other than possibly as a shallow DOF specialty lens) for a FF f1.4 anymore? Like one of the other commenters, I have an 45.5mm (85mm equiv) f0.95 when I need really shallow DOF, so there is room for specialty lenses. I suppose people who shoot a lot at dusk and dawn might need the biggest possible glass...but I'm not even sure about that. You pay a big penalty in weight and usually in money for that extra stop. It seems to me that we might need to rearrange out thinking about lens sets. Zooms have gotten so good, that a series of f4 zooms, along with in-camera lens correction, might be all we need to carry, along with a specialty lens or two.

Are tripods still as important as they once were? If we can get good quality at ISO 3200, we might be able to use shutter speeds in average light that are fast enough that tripods become less important...or we could use lighter tripods or monopods.

And so on.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2015, 12:51:10 am »

Tripods, that's another repositioning or repurposing of the original tool. As you say, John, tripods were used originally to steady the cameras for long exposures.
Nowadays, majority of tripod images are taken in situations where multiple aligned images are needed - i.e. HDR, focus stacking, panoramas with precise alignment and minimal overlaps, or even for making the streets people and car-free as shown by latest Kevin's tutorial. Very few of theses images are shot at slow speeds (except maybe intentional water blurring which is also becoming passé).
 
 BTW, these new ways are not restricted only to compact cameras.
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mbaginy

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2015, 03:07:46 am »

Are tripods still as important as they once were?
I prefer using a tripod to hand-held when shooting landscapes and (plant) macros.

Mainly for composition.  I usually take 10 to 15 minutes for a macro, when I pan through each axis (with a 3-way gear head), looking for the best angle, then viewing fore and background with DoF-preview.  I often use reflectors or diffusors, so I need my hands for holding these – plus the cable release.  Shooting macros hand held?  Very seldom.

Landscapes are similar, but usually without the diffusor.  But then, with a split neutral density filter.

I’ll stick to the lowest ISO possible and a tripod.  Maybe I'm too old to switch to the newer style, but I enjoy my photography nonetheless.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2015, 03:47:04 am »

I agree with many of the points here. But...

1. It depends on what you shoot. If you need to freeze movement or action, a faster lens (f2.8 vs. f4) can save the day. Even if you shoot at ISO 3200 instead of 1600, you may still need the lens' speed, as the noise at ISO 3200 may be unacceptable to you (especially with smaller sensors).

2. In my case, I still need fast lenses and tripods. I shoot starscapes. And I also shoot landscapes at the blue and golden hours, so a tripod is a must.

All in all, most likely m4/3, and even 1" sensor size cameras can provide what most hobbyists and some serious photographers require. But top quality m4/3 lenses are as expensive, or more, than FF ones, just beware of that.

David Sutton

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2015, 04:57:11 am »

1) In the world of classical guitar we all want an instrument that sounds good to our ears, but the reality is that once we have an established technique the playability of the instrument makes a big difference. Some guitars will have 15 or 20 good notes and a neck that you are always fighting, and some instruments will have 50 or more lovely notes and a neck that supports you. If you are playing for 3 or 4 hours straight you really notice the difference. Think: tired versus injured.
I can't see that a camera is that different.
2) Depth of field control is important. Sometimes I want a huge amount, and sometimes I want a nearby background to be blurred. I don't need a razor thin DoF but the quality of the roll-off is important and the quality of the blur much more so. I can't say I've had an image ruined by not having enough pixels, but I have had images with nasty out of focus highlights that gave me grief.
3) Lastly, having gone from a Canon full frame to a Fuji APS-C the biggest surprise was the way Fuji fiddled the sensor to handle highlight detail. It shows particularly in the way B&W conversions "sing".
The digital age has given us so many real choices in our approach to image making. I still use film but after a little while the word "tiresome" does rear it head.
David
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LeonD

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2015, 08:37:18 am »

The reason for having an expensive (vintage, unique, etc.) guitar is not for the listener.  They can't tell the difference between a '59 Les Paul and 2015 Les Paul.  The reason is how is inspires the musician.  Whether it be the sound, look, feel or mojo of the instrument, it inspires the musician to play a certain way.

Some might be more inspired to shoot with a Sony over a Canon (or Nikon or Leica or whatever).  And that inspiration can come from the look, feel, concept, company history, pride of ownership, etc.  It all goes into making the photos that you're taking.

Regarding depth of field, I'm considering one of two lenses (crop sensor 56mm 1.2 or 90mm 2.0).  My looking for the one that helps me isolate my subject the best.  I do care about narrow depth of field.
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PeterAit

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2015, 09:06:33 am »


Your guitar analogy is pretty apt, and works well for other aspects of the camera buying decision as well. I've always told myself that I won't buy a "better" guitar until my (pathetic) skills are such that I can tell the difference when I play. That's going to be awhile. People ask me the "what camera should I buy" question all the time, and I tell them the same thing - get a basic camera with the features you want, one which feels good in the hand, and don't spend a lot of money until the basic camera can no longer shoot what you want.


Not disagreeing necessarily, but another perspective is to get equipment that you know won't limit you and that you can grow into. Following the musical instrument analogy, when I took up cello about 15 years ago I, with my teacher's help, spent a good chunk of change on really nice cello and bow. I knew from the start that any problems with my sound was me and not the instrument, and I did not spend time wondering "what if I had a better cello/bow?" That cello is still with me and I'll be growing into it for the rest of my life.
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Telecaster

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2015, 04:40:53 pm »

Not disagreeing necessarily, but another perspective is to get equipment that you know won't limit you and that you can grow into.

I agree that starting with quality gear is a good thing. My first camera (borrowed from my dad) was a Leica M2. My first guitar was a Guild F-20 that still ranks among the finest acoustic guitars I've played. IMO getting a handle on the basics with non-limiting equipment also allows you to appreciate & enjoy quirkier stuff later on. Lately I've been doing some snapshooting with a tiny Fuji instant camera. And I love weird 1950s & '60s guitars from makers like Danelectro, Teisco and Valco (National, Supro, Airline).

The attached iPhone pic is of a Teisco "Del Ray" ET-300. Flat fretboard, poor intonation when stock (I replaced the bridge with an intonatable one), decidedly non-smooth tuning keys, not much of a looker…yet structurally sound with low action, light weight and resonant acoustics. The pickups, which can be used singly or in any combination, are freakin' amazing. The thing plays well and sounds terrific! Comes with no sense of obligation, and probably cost me less than the monthly insurance premium on a '59 Les Paul.  :)

-Dave-
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Ken Bennett

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2015, 05:02:39 pm »

Not disagreeing necessarily, but another perspective is to get equipment that you know won't limit you and that you can grow into.

Of course that's another perfectly valid course of action. One of my close friends bought a fairly expensive Martin as his first guitar, never having played a note. He's still playing and it's a terrific guitar, one that he can use for his entire life. I borrowed an old Alvarez from a friend for a few months, then bought a used Taylor that is definitely several steps above any cheap guitar, but it's not something I'll play forever. But until I figure out my playing style and what I want out of a guitar, it seemed less optimal for me to spend a lot of money up front.

I guess the camera analogy is that I bought a 60D with an 18-135, not knowing if I would eventually want a 5D Mark III with fast primes or a 1Dx with f/2.8 zooms. :)
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bassman51

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2015, 08:17:18 pm »

The trick if you buy a difficult-to-use camera or guitar as a beginner is that you may not recognize that the equipment is the problem - kind of the reverse of blaming the equipment for your own shortcomings.  My first half-way decent bass guitar was a Vox Cougar bass. It wasn't until years later that I realized I couldn't tune it properly because the intonation was all wrong, and couldn't get a clean sound through my amp because one of the pickups was faulty.  I've since fixed both problems and still have it, but it's not nearly as fun to play as my more modern and well-made Fenders. 
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John Camp

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2015, 01:48:03 am »

As Paulo said, "It depends on what you shoot."
My point was that with "film thinking," we really did need big fast lenses simply to deal with the limitations of film. They came with certain advantages, as well -- we all carried a lens with shallow DOF because we needed the speed, even if DOF wasn't a particular worry. I may be mis-remembering, but it seems like when I bought a new Pentax Spotmatic at an Army PX in 1968, the standard lens sold with the body was a 50mm f1.8. With my current cameras, an f4 would be fine. And probably very small. I guess I'm wondering if people have the "lens kit" mind set from film, without considering the huge changes that camera with digital. When I first started getting serious about photography, way back when, most people shot black and white, and a fairly standard "lens kit" consisted of 35, 50 and 135mm lenses, and sophisticates carried an 85mm or 105mm for portraits. By the time I finished my run with film, I was carrying the three Nikon f2.8 zooms, a 60 macro and a 300, always with two bodies and a tripod, and I'd often have a huge sun shade over my shoulder. (I was doing a lot of archaeological photography in the Middle East and all those lenses had specific uses.) The 35mm film shots were excellent for even double-truck repro in magazines (although archaeological magazines are not Vogue.) But, where I was working was so hot and rotten and dusty that I'd lose weight every day just lugging that equipment around a desert dig site. Now, I'd carry two m4/3 bodies, three zooms and a macro, and a lighter tripod, and probably 1/4 the weight -- and still get excellent repro in archaeological magazines.

To go to the guitar analogy, I think that some people might have a whole panoply of instruments -- nylon and steel string acoustics, a Strat, a Tele and a Les Paul and maybe a 335, and even a resonator. But I think the better you get, maybe the narrower you get -- you wind up with a "curated" set of similar guitars for your particular interests. I think digital, and especially the variety of "good enough" quality in a wide range of cameras and sensors, really gives us a chance to curate our systems.
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Rand47

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2015, 12:52:09 pm »

Another attraction of uber fast lenses on conventional cameras was/is the brightness of the viewfinder achieved. 
Slow lenses, even if superior IQ-wise - and where DOF is adequate for the task at hand, make for dim viewing. 

I still dislike the current implementation of EVF, but they do have an advantage in this regard.

Rand
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Rand Scott Adams

Telecaster

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2015, 05:22:41 pm »

My 1950s & '60s era photo/camera books—The Contax Way (Zeiss rangefinders), for example—extol the virtues of fast lenses as they pertain to low-light shooting. DOF control: nary a mention. Our interest in shallow DOF is mostly a recent phenomenon.

Re. guitars: I did, back in the 1990s, consolidate as John describes. But it didn't last long. When I hear something different, then discover what was used to create that thing, I get curious. This also happened, at around the same time, with photo gear. I think I lack the focus, not to mention the innate talent, necessary to be great at any particular thing…and, being okay with that, I enjoy exploring different tools & techniques, keeping what works well for me and moving on from the rest.

The attached Kodachrome pic was taken by my dad c. May/June 1963. After he died I found it amongst his stuff in one of his yellow Kodak boxes marked "Rejects," with the caption "Margaret [my mom] too blurred" written on the slide mount. He was not a bokeh afficianado.  ;)

-Dave-
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Ken Bennett

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2015, 07:01:53 am »

Dave, that is a terrific photo. Love the expression.
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pflower

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2015, 07:22:59 pm »

Good points.  The musical analogy is both interesting and apposite - particularly the point about what the final result would be after modulating the original signal through pedals, amps and the acoustics of any particular room.  Turning to a different instrument, there were a number of interesting pieces in the UK about Daniel Barenboim's design for a new piano - here is one link - http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/may/26/daniel-barenboim-reveals-radical-new-piano-design-ive-fallen-in-love-with-it.  Now I seriously doubt my ability to appreciate the subtle improvements of this instrument over a Steinway D but there is no doubting Barenboim's enthusiasm (particularly if you watch him demonstrate on film).  And I fully accept that there are those with better ears than mine who will appreciate those subtleties and that there may be musicians who feel that they can achieve better performances on that instrument than with a mere £150,000 Steinway.  But they are a rare breed and if you, or even they, just use it to play chopsticks - what is the point?

I feel that much of what is going on in photography is very similar.  There are truly fantastic cameras and lenses in all shapes, formats, sizes and weights available.  Would I like a new Phase One system or a Leica S or even the latest wunderkind - the Sony A7rii?  Yes please.  But would any of these make me a better photographer?  Well we all know the answer to that.  But the better question is - would any of them enable me to make better photographs?  For myself the answer is no because my work doesn't depend upon  super fast auto focus in low light, or razor sharpness edge to edge.  Others will have different criteria.  But far too much time is spent arguing whether lens (or camera) A is sharper than lens (or camera) B or whether there is a hint of CA when viewed at 100% in Photoshop after pushing the file by 4 stops or if there is 1/3rd stop more DR as opposed to asking whether or not any particular photograph really has anything to say or communicate.  But then again I too read all the websites and yes, I really would like a Phase One system.


This is a riff on the discussion taking place in the thread called "4/3 vs Nikon APS-C."

I have both full frame and m4/3 systems (and a Sony RX100compact and a cell phone camera) and I've found that the handier the camera is, the more you tend to give up in terms of control.

But to limit the discussion to interchangeable lens cameras, I've found that discussion tends to revolve around four aspects of these various-sized cameras: physical size (dimensions and weight), lens speed, depth of field aspects and sensor qualities.

The advantages and disadvantages of physical size is pretty obvious to all of us, and I think is really a matter of personal preference, a balancing of all the different ways we may shoot as individuals. Your best system isn't mine, simply because we shoot in different ways and may have different subject interests.

It's figuring out the other aspects that's tough.

I would suggest (as I did in the earlier thread) that lens speed (at least in terms of a one-stop difference) is not as important as it was with film, because digital ISO abilities are so much better. In film, I really felt handicapped in terms of quality even shooting at ISO800. I think digital has a two- or three-stop advantage here, which means that an f4 lens may practically be as good as an f2.8 used to be.

Except for depth of field. Here there are two aspects. You have less depth of field control with a smaller sensor (like a m4/3 compared to FF) for any given lens speed. But is depth of field control really important in general purpose lenses? (This is an actual question of mine, not a rhetorical one.) How often do we want to limit depth of field in general shooting, and how much depth of field control do we practically have with f2.8 zoom lenses on even a FF camera? Isn't depth of field control really something you want to deal with in specific circumstances, for which an even faster, more specialized lens would be more effective? The practical effect of this question comes from the other thread, where somebody pointed out that depth of field with an m4/3 system's f2/8 is more like the equivalent of f5.6 of a full-frame system, while a FF's f4 is the f4 we're all accustomed to. But is depth of field really a matter of interest in choosing between f4 and f5.6-equivalent?

Then there are pixel questions. A lot of high quality cameras seem to be settling on offerings in the mid-20s (24-26mp.) The next Panny GX8 will have ~20mp. People have argued since the dawn of digital about the  storage capacity of larger vs. smaller pixels, and also about the printing abilities of different numbers of pixels. Is there really a discernible difference between ~20mp and ~25mp at common, fairly large (say full-page large format magazine) sizes? Do marginally larger individual pixel sizes make more difference than the camera's processing engines that produce the final image?

In the guitar world, some people obsess about the sounds produced by vintage, usually incredibly expensive (now) instruments like the '59 Les Paul and the older Strats and so on, but a friend of mine pointed out that given all the different skill levels, by the time you run the signal through a couple of stomp boxes and maybe a looper and out an amp, and given all the different acoustic qualities you might have in any given room, you're sometimes lucky you can tell that it's a guitar being played, much less a quarter-million-dollar 59 LP. Are the analogous qualities true of cameras? That by the time you finish running a scene through your personal technique (tripod, no tripod), the autofocus, the lens glass, the sensors, Lightroom, and finally the printer...does it really matter much whether it's an m4/3 or a Nikon D800?
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