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Author Topic: Some compact system thoughts  (Read 46642 times)

OldRoy

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Instrument analogy cont.
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2015, 02:19:08 pm »

A few weeks ago I had an old friend to stay, who is a string player with a major orchestra which was performing locally. She wanted to bring her instrument along rather than have it travel home with the rest of the instruments, so that she could do a little practice whilst staying here. She told me a story which gave me pause for thought.
Recently, whilst playing overseas, she discovered that she didn't have her bow with her and had to borrow one. Panicking a little she called home and found that she'd simply left it behind rather than having lost it somehow. On her return this prompted her to check on her instrument insurance. The valuer told her that the bow alone was a little under-insured: at £20K... He recommended that she increase this to £30K - and noted in passing that had it not been repaired at some point it would be worth considerably more. The bow...

I have two systems, one based on a D700 (remember the D700?), three 2.8 zooms, plus a selection of primes and "legacy" mf lenses from film days. The other is an EM5 plus 4 primes, the kit lens and a 100-300 for wildlife use. Of course I also own numerous, entirely redundant, film cameras.

I'm through buying photographic equipment for the forseeable future. It would be no exaggeration to say that I bitterly regret buying the Nikon system and should really have unloaded it, swallowing the hideous depreciation, many years ago.  The sheer bulk and weight of this gear now strikes me as quite absurd. To recall hauling even a subset of it up and down mountain gorges makes me wince.

As for the Olympus system, I'm somewhat conflicted. The size and weight are ideal. However I have never been able to accept (or get used to, really) the horrendously poor handling characteristics of this camera. I've lost count of the number of good shots that I've lost as a result of the camera suddenly being in some unwanted mode that I've accidentally selected or because the abominable contrast af system is struggling.

Whenever I look at photographic forums these days - increasingly seldom - my heart sinks at the endless proliferation of hardware, much of which outperforms everything I own. There's a terrible futility to it all, this continual raising of the technical bar. Maybe one day there will be a 4/3 body that seems utterly compelling, but..
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John Camp

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2015, 04:58:11 pm »

<big snip>

Whenever I look at photographic forums these days - increasingly seldom - my heart sinks at the endless proliferation of hardware, much of which outperforms everything I own. There's a terrible futility to it all, this continual raising of the technical bar. Maybe one day there will be a 4/3 body that seems utterly compelling, but..


On that count, I was recently trying to straighten up some bookcases, where I more-or-less try to keep similar topics in the same place. In doing that, I found the instruction book for my old F5 (which I no longer have) and also the printed-out full instruction book for a Panasonic GX7. The F5 instruction book was a pamphlet about the thickness of a CD case, and about half the size of a CD case. The GX7 full instruction manual was (I think this is correct -- I'm at a different office right now) 360 single-spaced standard printer-pages long.
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SZRitter

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2015, 09:44:31 am »

On that count, I was recently trying to straighten up some bookcases, where I more-or-less try to keep similar topics in the same place. In doing that, I found the instruction book for my old F5 (which I no longer have) and also the printed-out full instruction book for a Panasonic GX7. The F5 instruction book was a pamphlet about the thickness of a CD case, and about half the size of a CD case. The GX7 full instruction manual was (I think this is correct -- I'm at a different office right now) 360 single-spaced standard printer-pages long.

And if the F5 manual matches the one from my old Minolta SLR, half of it is teaching you the basics of photography, not even the functions of the camera.
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Telecaster

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2015, 05:06:16 pm »

Greater capability == greater complexity == greater manual size. An electronic camera with only one color/tonal profile, one white balance setting, one function per dial/switch/button, one EVF and/or rear LCD display config, etc. would be a lot easier to use. To switch to a different color/tone profile you'd turn off the camera and change storage cards…the profiles would be card-specific. It could be done!  :D

-Dave-
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Audii-Dudii

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Re: Instrument analogy cont.
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2015, 02:31:16 am »

I'm through buying photographic equipment for the forseeable future.

Same here.  The amount of money I have (foolishly? needlessly? recklessly?) squandered on camera equipment over the past four decades, endlessly chasing after minor improvements in image quality, is truly too scary to contemplate.  Mind you, all of these so-called improvements struck me as being huge improvements at the time: i.e., if I could see a difference, then by definition it had to be a significant one!  But history has since provided me with the perspective I clearly lacked in those days and I have (belatedly) come to realize the fundamental error inherent in my prior way of thinking.

Quote
Whenever I look at photographic forums these days - increasingly seldom - my heart sinks at the endless proliferation of hardware, much of which outperforms everything I own. There's a terrible futility to it all, this continual raising of the technical bar. Maybe one day there will be a 4/3 body that seems utterly compelling, but..

I've been photographing happily (and exclusively!) with a pair of used Sony RX1s that I bought in March and April of this year.  While they're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, despite my decidedly outlier needs (I photograph mostly at night, among other things) they're not only getting the job done for me, but doing it quite well.  You regret buying your Nikon gear?  I'll see you that and raise you a medium-format digital outfit that I haven't used in nearly three years that is collecting dust almost as quickly as it depreciates, along with a pair of Fuji bodies and several lenses, a half-dozen m4/3 and 4/3 bodies and several lenses, and also a half-dozen medium- and large-format cameras that I never use but still own only because they're worth so little these days that selling them hasn't seemed worth the effort.

Well, I'm finally done: one camera, one lens (well, actually two lenses, because I also use a wide-angle converter with my RX1s occasionally) and for the next few years, at least, I plan to focus my attention on my compositions and technique instead of continuously researching my next upgrade and then working overtime to fund its purchase.

Unless Sony eventually releases an RX2, of course...    :D
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 02:32:47 am by Audii-Dudii »
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Telecaster

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2015, 02:40:45 pm »

I've done most of my pic-taking over the past 16+ months with a pair of Leica M8.2s, also bought used. The black one has a Zeiss 28mm mounted and the silver one an old Leitz 50mm "rigid" Summicron. I've figured as long as my eyes are still up to accurately focusing with a rangefinder I should take advantage. But I've indulged in other stuff too, certainly not out of necessity but rather curiosity. YOLO & all that.  ;)

-Dave-
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Rand47

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2015, 04:11:51 pm »

Greater capability == greater complexity == greater manual size. ...

-Dave-

Dave,

That's one of the things I like most about my Fuji X-T1.  While it is very configurable/flexible, I have it set up much like my old "simple" cameras.  The analog knobs, aperture ring make it a "glance down to see where I am" kind of camera.

Rand
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Rand Scott Adams

Tony Ventouris Photography

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2015, 04:21:38 pm »

With that being said...people can make any camera as easy as they wish if the body is decently designed.

With the e-m1 you have aperture on the rear wheel, shutter speed on the front wheel, ISO and white balance on the top two buttons.  Lock the camera in manual mode and done.  You virtually never have to adjust anything again and every actual command needed for making images is under one hand. 

I love the feel of the fujis and the old dials...but in reality I find the two wheels system of Olympus, canon, etc.. Quicker to operate and I don't need to change hand position.

adrian tyler

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2015, 02:58:45 pm »

so, if the camera & lens is the axe (input) what's the sensor (output?) the amp?
we all know that a marshall stack = small genitalia (sorry mf sensor guys.) so i don't feel bad about not having one of those (pun intended.)
then 24x36mm would be what a fender deluxe? or one of those boutique jobs, i'd say my a7ii is a blackstar artisan 15, small yet beautifully articulate and the a7r ii is an artisan 30 with a tube upgrade and a stonkin' b.k. butler overdrive pedal turned up to about 5...
... then this begs the question, the m43 sensor would be what? a practice amp?
;-)

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Telecaster

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2015, 03:40:43 pm »

With the e-m1 you have aperture on the rear wheel, shutter speed on the front wheel…

Or, if you're me, you set aperture with the front dial & shutter speed with the rear one.  :)  Such configurability is IMO usually a big plus even if it means spending a good amount of time setting up everything to taste. I don't mind doing that so long as the camera is simple to use once set up.

I leave my M8.2s in manual mode, with fixed ISO (usually 320 à la Tri-X), 'cuz using exposure comp is such a PITA. Pretty much every camera I've ever used has required putting up with something.

Re. the amp analogy, at least when relating image quality to sonic quality: IMO m43 cameras are tweed Fender Deluxes. Clean & sweet at lower volumes, break up easily & harmoniously when pushed but lose definition if you take it too far. Sony's A7r2 is a Hiwatt Custom 100. Big, bold & 3D clean, gets crunchy when cranked (to room-shaking, eardrum-damaging levels) but never loses control. Leica's M8.2 is a temperamental old pre-Top Boost Vox AC-30. Rich & kinda dark, can roar when turned up but always in danger of overheating.  :D  (Note: this falls apart when taking knobs & switches, or dials & buttons, into consideration.)

-Dave-
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brandon

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2015, 04:31:08 pm »

Interesting thread. On reflection (or maybe purchasing old gear second hand) I find we we often enjoy  the "hardware" for its quirks, its character, its "look", or for some ceremony or sense of place/ personal importance or even nostalgic feelings it gives us. Interchangability of old lenses must be the pinnacle of that: it wouldnt stand up to rational or logical analysis much of the time for pure image capture. The rub is that most gear is sold to us, I mean actively marketed to us, when new in a way to say it is better than this or that. Fundamentally that (marketing) is the art of making us feel insecure with what we have already got or what we are using. Advances are great of course (especially if you skip a generation or two) but much of what we are promised wasn't even on our "needs list", and while some of those advances may genuinely be a bonus many arent.
As said above this isn't unique to compact systems, or even photography (nice musical instrument analogies). It isn't even unique to hardware: Im not sure why I want to upgrade beyond PS5, but I ill embrace improved RAW conversion (ironically perhaps to improve the oldest of my files the most).
Rapid advances can be great to a user. The "insecurity" that is engendered around that to "move" the consumer on to more purchases just needs to be filtered out.
(Disclosure, I am guilty of collecting old stuff, not rationalising what I already have, and even purchasing equipment for its out and out finesse)
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John Camp

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2015, 06:36:10 pm »

Re. the amp analogy, at least when relating image quality to sonic quality: IMO m43 cameras are tweed Fender Deluxes. Clean & sweet at lower volumes, break up easily & harmoniously when pushed but lose definition if you take it too far. Sony's A7r2 is a Hiwatt Custom 100. Big, bold & 3D clean, gets crunchy when cranked (to room-shaking, eardrum-damaging levels) but never loses control. Leica's M8.2 is a temperamental old pre-Top Boost Vox AC-30. Rich & kinda dark, can roar when turned up but always in danger of overheating.  :D  (Note: this falls apart when taking knobs & switches, or dials & buttons, into consideration.)
-Dave-

But one is not better than another, for a given purpose:

Ray Wylie Hubbard sings, in "Down Home Country Blues,"

“Now you can take some Black Diamond strings
And put 'em on a J45
You hit them chords, you get that thump
You downright sanctified

Or you can take a lipstick pickup
And play it through a Fender Tweed
Oh, it's sweet, so goddamn sweet
When it squeals, squalls and bleeds”
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Remo Nonaz

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2015, 07:51:23 am »

All this worry about which camera is better at a micro level overlooks an important issue in digital shooting: If you shoot RAW, half of your results are tied up in how well you post process the RAW digital image. It would be interesting to compare images taken with a D810 in JPEG by a competent but not expert shooter and compare them to a Micro Four Thirds image shot RAW and fully processed by someone expert with both the camera used and post processing.

I believe that, as in your guitar analogy, the skill of the player/shooter is more important than the instrument. With digital photography those skills include the camera and all the software to get the image right in post.

...But I'll concede that the D810 shot in RAW and properly post processed by an expert photographer WILL blow away any crop sensor image.
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I really enjoy using old primes on my m4/3 camera. There's something about having to choose your aperture and actually focusing your camera that makes it so much more like... like... PHOTOGRAPHY!

Tony Ventouris Photography

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2015, 08:41:10 am »

I don't believe it will "blow away" the crop sensor.  I shoot with medium format daily for my clients and use an e-m1 daily as well.  I have done the comparisons myself of two identically shot images processed to give me the same results, and you would be amazed how well the m43 stands up.  I was astonished that the only real difference I could spot was my m43 file was just smaller due to resolution.  In terms of visible detail (in respect of size), color rendition, etc...i have found it completely immaterial to my workflow.  It's also made me extremely confident in m43.  I know first hand that when I have my e-m1 I literally have my "16mp phase one" in a sense.  Obviously with 40 - 80 megapixels you can crop more or print bigger before upresing...but I personally don't care, nor need it.  I have several comparisons with m43 and a P45 where I was scouting with the crop and shooting finals later with the p45 and I get the same look. 

The look and feel in an image comes from the shooter.   It seems we have a lot of musicians in the forum, so i will use that analogy too.  Tone comes from the hands, not the instrument nor the amp.  Yes, a good instrument or amp enable the players tone to be revealed more...but it comes from the hands.  Uli Jon Roth always sounds like Uli...I have seen him play through other gear.  Made no difference.  Brian May, Steve Vai, etc...

This is the same with photographers who have actually developed their "tone" or feel/style.  I know many photographers who's overall body of work is so cohesive and signature that you can t ell their photos anywhere.  When you look at their gear....it has changed many times over the years but the images can't be distinguished one from the other.  Even before processing.

Gear just enables us to further execute our vision in the field.   And that is why there is so much variation of gear. And it's all valid.  Vision is different.  when your abilities are developed well, what camera your raw came out of will make very very little difference. 

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2015, 04:36:52 pm »

The only thing to add regarding the music analogy is that some instruments are more highly valued than others.  My daughter is a bassoonist and some years back when she entered high school she switched from clarinet to bassoon (the music director had lots of the former and none of the latter).  The first year she used the school instrument and when she decided to continue on it we bought her a bassoon.  It's a nice instrument and IIRC we paid about $2800 for it.  14 years letter the same model is now selling for $5400.  It's one of the few instruments (aside from Steinway pianos and certain Italian violins, violas, cellos) that continues to appreciate.
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Rob C

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2015, 05:08:20 pm »

Bloody guitars. I was twelve and saw this movie with the cowboy in black on a horse (also black) plucking his black guitar and singing a song to this lovely lady with an enraptured expression across her chops. I knew nothing of guitars, but at twelve I was already very aware of what made women special.

So, my grandmother bought me one. No, a guitar. It was, obviously, a black Silvestri made in Catania, Sicily. As I said, I was twelve.
By the time I was ready to quit my teens, I sold it to another guy. In all those years I learned E, A, D, G, B, and E. The strings. The only tutor I had suggested that I might like to investigate something like a Swiss squeeze box.

I don't think of guitars or horses much these days. Some things, however, never leave your imagination.

Rob
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 03:21:46 am by Rob C »
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Tony Ventouris Photography

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2015, 05:28:16 pm »

Exactly why we all own a Leica at one point.  Regardless if we need it or use it.

Telecaster

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2015, 05:29:21 pm »

But one is not better than another, for a given purpose…

Quite right. Having used two new cameras with sensors near opposite ends of the size spectrum—a Sony A7r2 & Panasonic GX8—over the past 10 days or so, I'd say the significant differences between them are these: the A7r2 accommodates a wider range of print sizes and ISO values; while the GX8 is a touch smaller, noticeably lighter (particularly when taking lenses into account) and autofocuses faster. Unless you're making huge prints the GX8 concedes nothing detail-wise at lower ISOs. Color/tonal rendition is a matter of taste…either camera may be "better" depending on what you're going for. Same with noise/grain texture or lack thereof.

-Dave-
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Telecaster

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2015, 05:24:30 pm »

Here's a GX8 pic from today's afternoon walk. Panasonic 12–35/2.8 lens at 35mm & f/5.6. ISO 500. Quick tweaking of the camera's JPEG on my iPad while I get caffeinated…I'll give the RAW a go later. Anyway, I continue to be impressed with the GX8's tonal range. These gizmos are acting more & more like negative film: with many of the pics I took today I could choose where to place my tones on the sensor's scale without (much) concern over blowing or crushing anything. Nice!

-Dave-
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John Camp

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Re: Some compact system thoughts
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2015, 08:54:25 pm »

Here's a GX8 pic from today's afternoon walk. Panasonic 12–35/2.8 lens at 35mm & f/5.6. ISO 500. <snip>
-Dave-

You know, it's beginning to seem as though cameras like the m4/3 or even the RX100 could be thought of as "primary" cameras, meant to be used or printed without much tweaking at all. In other words, like the old film cameras, where the emphasis was on getting what you wanted in-camera, with limited possibilities thereafter (in the darkroom.) The bigger sensor cameras like the new Sony or the 810 or the MF cameras are more like "secondary" cameras, where the secondary manipulation of the photo comes to the fore -- basically a data collection that you plan to extensively manipulate and perfect in Lightroom or Photoshop, where the extra capabilities of these camera can really be used, where, for example, you can radically crop yet still get a fine-grained image.

There are all kinds of psychological/historical questions embedded in the way we see images -- do we think of somewhat harsh, noisy, contrasty and even blurry images as "action" or "news" photos simply because we've been trained that way, or is there something eye-like in those images? Something that replicates an eye-brain link? Or, if we took the same image with a medium format camera and came back with a really spectacular, fine-grained, noiseless, almost creamy image, would we accept that as a valid action image as readily as the more noisy image? To put it the other way around, would a carefully exposed MF shot seem as intuitively valid as a street shot, as a more noisy image?

To go back to the music analogy, I don't think there are a large number of people (though there are always some) who would argue that chamber music is more inherently valid as music than, say, blues or jazz or rock. In fact, chamber music really used to be more like rock before it got constipated. They are just different experiences. But it seems that in the photo world, the lower-megapixel, shorter dynamic-range, etc., cameras are simply taken as inferior, and that the raison d'etre of m4/3 is simply smaller size and lower weight, rather than an inherent virtue to be found in lower-definition images. In music, an inherent virtue is found in rap, rock, country, jazz, blues, etc. vis-a-vis chamber music. But not so in photography?   
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