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Author Topic: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?  (Read 81051 times)

JV

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"Please understand that we can’t talk about future product roadmap plans in public. "

Really? So how come Sony, Fuji, Olympus and Pentax do so?

For established systems like the M a roadmap is not so essential but for S and T users a roadmap would considerably boost confidence in those systems.

It is pretty mind-boggling that Leica does not get this...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 08:20:06 pm by JV »
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eronald

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Everyone else who is not a photographer will say - "I can't see the difference"


Everyone else will say - you have a real good cellphone ...

Edmund
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Theodoros

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Although the interview posted (thanks Chris) is mainly about the M series of cameras, one may conclude that the chairman of Leica is very clear on the quality of sensors that Leica will bring out... It is very clear to me that Leica is working on a new generation of CMos sensors, based on their usual 6 micron pixel pitch, that will be of world class quality.... They surely take their time in releasing them though... it is now a whole year after S007 was announced, surely not good for Leica's reputation not to keep up with the time tables that they announce.
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rainer_v

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Since most of the (mechanical) engineering parts are common with previous S models and the major change is the sensor and its processor, it seems to me that the delay is more related with maximizing sensor performance as such.
Or minimizing faukts  ;D
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rainer viertlböck
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erstwhile

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They don't "need" one... they'll get one for several reasons! Here is a few:
1. Most of them use a Contax 645 with film for a part of their work and they'll be able to share the lenses which will shrink the equipment they have to carry a lot since using Leica S007 with a "C" adapter will be (almost) like having another C645 body but with DSLR feeling and an MFDB on it...
2. They'll be able to finance the body by only selling their DSLR systems...
3. They'll be able to have video ability using the very same lenses.
4. For prestige reasons... for many customers "if he has a Leica, he is even better than the better ones"... that, (if correctly marketed) can both expand the annual number of customers but make them able to rise (further) prises and justify that rise... Add to it, that they'll do less film shooting.

Most of all though it is the equipment shrinkage... Believe it or not, having only one bag with a 35, 80, 140 & possibly the 45-90 Vario, or the 45, or the 55 and be able to just add another (digital) body in the bag, which is quite compact too... is a real blessing for them! Particularly if it allows them to do all Digital, low light and video shooting with only four lenses!


Hi Theodoros,

I totally agree with your post in its 100% accurate entirety. Below are some additional thoughts to build on your comments.

1. Your statistical observation of the equipment usage of an entire occupational cross section is almost correct: I would actually say that ALL better wedding photographers use contax 645s with film! It's funny sometimes seeing poser wedding photographers trying to pretend to be "better" by using digital backs on Contax 645s; I mean, sheesh who are they kidding? Fortunately, I've heard that there is a wedding photography client advocate group that is trying to get a law passed such that a photog must pass a strict candidacy portfolio examination (by existing "better" wedding photographers) before they're allowed to even buy a Contax 645 body. This will help cut down on fakers.

2. I think I might have misunderstood you on this point. As I expanded upon in point 1, actually ALL better wedding photographers use Contax 645 film. They don't have DSLR systems! How would they finance the new Leica? There's no DSLR system to sell.

3. This will be a HUGE benefit to the better wedding photographers. As you and I know by now, they ALL use Contax 645 film; currently they have to shoot footage using specially modified Contax bodies running 70mm film stock. For those of you who've never shot wedding videos (after telecine of course) using 70mm, let me tell you, lugging all those magazines is tough. But now that they can shoot video using the same lenses, they're free to focus on capturing and editing actuality into a motion product that has the polish of narrative: a skill every still wedding photographer already has! I mean, can you imagine if every stills shooters didn't already know how to put together compelling motion? You'd probably need some other person to capture footage! What would they call those people, wedding videographers??? How absurd!

4. I absolutely agree with this point. Most (I would say almost ALL) people I know, and I might extend that to say most people on earth, (and I might even extend that to say all people who have ever lived), don't even bother to look at any image NOT taken with a Leica camera. I mean, why would you? It'd be like rubbing diarrhea in your eye! There's a catchy phrase I like to use to educate prospective wedding photography clients with: "If their camera brand doesn't start with L, you'll probably look like hell." I might be mistaken, but I don't think any bride wants to look like hell on their special day!

Any professional knows (they know because Hasselblad/Phase/Leica marketing-whether overt or covert-all say so) that you ALWAYS have to out gun the customer! As a professional photographer who also captures high quality motion footage at the exact same time, can you afford to answer "no" when the customer asks if your equipment costs at least $20k? Think of the shame when they slam the door in your face! Think of the disgrace when they tell all their family and friends! ("There was this guy, he almost conned us into having him shoot our wedding with some cheap camera!")

I've heard that the latest technique the BEST better wedding photographers use is to actually tape a dozen or so thousand dollar bills on the outside of their camera. Not only does this show customers that they are the BEST wedding photographers, but apparently the currency improves the image quality in a "not objectively quantifiable, but definitely subjectively noticeable way as long as it's not in a double blind test". Something about the security stripe in the bills actually being some kind of resonator circuit?

BUT WAIT:
IF THEY USE LEICA, THEN THEY WON'T BE BETTER WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHERS ANYMORE, SINCE BETTER WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHERS ONLY USE CONTAX 645 FILM!!!

Luckily there's no paradox here: once they start using Leica, they will be the BEST wedding photographers.

Q.
E.
D.

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Chris Livsey

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 "If their camera brand doesn't start with L, you'll probably look like hell." I might be mistaken, but I don't think any bride wants to look like hell on their special day!

Linhof it is then. no wait Lomo?

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tjv

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Brilliant!

Next time I go out photographing people I'll try the taping money to my camera trick. Seems a sure fire way to better pictures and respect.

Hi Theodoros,

I totally agree with your post in its 100% accurate entirety. Below are some additional thoughts to build on your comments.

1. Your statistical observation of the equipment usage of an entire occupational cross section is almost correct: I would actually say that ALL better wedding photographers use contax 645s with film! It's funny sometimes seeing poser wedding photographers trying to pretend to be "better" by using digital backs on Contax 645s; I mean, sheesh who are they kidding? Fortunately, I've heard that there is a wedding photography client advocate group that is trying to get a law passed such that a photog must pass a strict candidacy portfolio examination (by existing "better" wedding photographers) before they're allowed to even buy a Contax 645 body. This will help cut down on fakers.

2. I think I might have misunderstood you on this point. As I expanded upon in point 1, actually ALL better wedding photographers use Contax 645 film. They don't have DSLR systems! How would they finance the new Leica? There's no DSLR system to sell.

3. This will be a HUGE benefit to the better wedding photographers. As you and I know by now, they ALL use Contax 645 film; currently they have to shoot footage using specially modified Contax bodies running 70mm film stock. For those of you who've never shot wedding videos (after telecine of course) using 70mm, let me tell you, lugging all those magazines is tough. But now that they can shoot video using the same lenses, they're free to focus on capturing and editing actuality into a motion product that has the polish of narrative: a skill every still wedding photographer already has! I mean, can you imagine if every stills shooters didn't already know how to put together compelling motion? You'd probably need some other person to capture footage! What would they call those people, wedding videographers??? How absurd!

4. I absolutely agree with this point. Most (I would say almost ALL) people I know, and I might extend that to say most people on earth, (and I might even extend that to say all people who have ever lived), don't even bother to look at any image NOT taken with a Leica camera. I mean, why would you? It'd be like rubbing diarrhea in your eye! There's a catchy phrase I like to use to educate prospective wedding photography clients with: "If their camera brand doesn't start with L, you'll probably look like hell." I might be mistaken, but I don't think any bride wants to look like hell on their special day!

Any professional knows (they know because Hasselblad/Phase/Leica marketing-whether overt or covert-all say so) that you ALWAYS have to out gun the customer! As a professional photographer who also captures high quality motion footage at the exact same time, can you afford to answer "no" when the customer asks if your equipment costs at least $20k? Think of the shame when they slam the door in your face! Think of the disgrace when they tell all their family and friends! ("There was this guy, he almost conned us into having him shoot our wedding with some cheap camera!")

I've heard that the latest technique the BEST better wedding photographers use is to actually tape a dozen or so thousand dollar bills on the outside of their camera. Not only does this show customers that they are the BEST wedding photographers, but apparently the currency improves the image quality in a "not objectively quantifiable, but definitely subjectively noticeable way as long as it's not in a double blind test". Something about the security stripe in the bills actually being some kind of resonator circuit?

BUT WAIT:
IF THEY USE LEICA, THEN THEY WON'T BE BETTER WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHERS ANYMORE, SINCE BETTER WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHERS ONLY USE CONTAX 645 FILM!!!

Luckily there's no paradox here: once they start using Leica, they will be the BEST wedding photographers.

Q.
E.
D.


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eronald

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They surely take their time in releasing them though... it is now a whole year after S007 was announced, surely not good for Leica's reputation not to keep up with the time tables that they announce.

Probably the best sales they ever had thanks to pricing and they don't want to break this trend :)

Edmund
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Bo Dez

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The Leica S 007 is now shipping, they've slashed the price by $8000 and the Dynamic Range has been bumped to a record 15 Stops, and high ISO has been bumped up too.

I think this is enough for me to jump in now.
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tjv

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Where did you get this info?

The Leica S 007 is now shipping, they've slashed the price by $8000 and the Dynamic Range has been bumped to a record 15 Stops, and high ISO has been bumped up too.

I think this is enough for me to jump in now.
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ynp

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Thanks for the link.

The new pricing changes a lot in my plans. The S007 became almost affordable. Four Sironars CMV will pay for a half of the camera.
What is the price in Europe?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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peterv

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Great news! Thanks for sharing!
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michael

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My review is now online here.

Michael
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Theodoros

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I really like what I see... I guess when there is full support for the development of the digital negs, the results should surpass the respective Sony sensor... Especially DR performance looks really impressive despite the fact that there was no software to develop the files properly.
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Theodoros

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My review is now online here.

Michael

One thing to ask Michael... As far as I know, Leica S (all models) are supplied with LR as standard, but in your review you mention that current LR doesn't (yet) support S(007)... I find it strange if they decided to release the camera and supply software with it that ...doesn't support it! Is it possible that things have changed as of today? Is it possible that the LR supplied with the camera does support the S007? ...How can it be otherwise?
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jduncan

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My review is now online here.

Michael


Hi,

This remember me when the D3X was released, people were talking about and even I did not like the pricing. But when I saw the pictures taken for the camera I was drawn to the shadows immediately , in particular in this photo:
http://static.nikonusa.com/D3X_gallery/images/pic_005b.jpg

I notice that something very special was starting, I knew that the camera was unlike any other in terms of Dynamic range and shadow recovery.

This other solidified my perception:
http://static.nikonusa.com/D3X_gallery/images/pic_008b.jpg

Nowadays the D3x dynamic range does not seems that great, but back in the day it was as eye opening experience

Michael R  preview of the 007 shows something: The colors, there is “magic” in them. The high iso is not that good, but the colors , the colors :).

I could not help but remember Edmund comment about the balance between color and dynamic range, and ask if we have one between color and high iso (sound rational that we should have one, as filters cut some light)

Best regards,
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

There is no conflict between high DR and colour. DR is mostly about clean readout and high FWC (Full Well Capacity), nothing to do colour rendition.

One of our frequent contributors, Anders Torger, has developed a camera profiling tool called "DCamProf" and learned an awful lot about camera profiling. My take on his writing is that sensor CFA-s are of second order significance. Profiles matter most. That said a low noise image amy make it possible to take more liberties in profile making. But, liberties in profile making may end up as artefacts.

Best regards
Erik





Hi,

This remember me when the D3X was released, people were talking about and even I did not like the pricing. But when I saw the pictures taken for the camera I was drawn to the shadows immediately , in particular in this photo:
http://static.nikonusa.com/D3X_gallery/images/pic_005b.jpg

I notice that something very special was starting, I knew that the camera was unlike any other in terms of Dynamic range and shadow recovery.

This other solidified my perception:
http://static.nikonusa.com/D3X_gallery/images/pic_008b.jpg

Nowadays the D3x dynamic range does not seems that great, but back in the day it was as eye opening experience

Michael R  preview of the 007 shows something: The colors, there is “magic” in them. The high iso is not that good, but the colors , the colors :).

I could not help but remember Edmund comment about the balance between color and dynamic range, and ask if we have one between color and high iso (sound rational that we should have one, as filters cut some light)

Best regards,

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Theodoros

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Hi,

This remember me when the D3X was released, people were talking about and even I did not like the pricing. But when I saw the pictures taken for the camera I was drawn to the shadows immediately , in particular in this photo:
http://static.nikonusa.com/D3X_gallery/images/pic_005b.jpg

I notice that something very special was starting, I knew that the camera was unlike any other in terms of Dynamic range and shadow recovery.

This other solidified my perception:
http://static.nikonusa.com/D3X_gallery/images/pic_008b.jpg

Nowadays the D3x dynamic range does not seems that great, but back in the day it was as eye opening experience

Michael R  preview of the 007 shows something: The colors, there is “magic” in them. The high iso is not that good, but the colors , the colors :).

I could not help but remember Edmund comment about the balance between color and dynamic range, and ask if we have one between color and high iso (sound rational that we should have one, as filters cut some light)

Best regards,

Ι did notice something special on these files too... But lets wait for proper file processing first... After all Leica now has teamed up with Sinar and Sinar, is undeniably the company that has worked more than anybody else on accurate color. As far as DR is concerned, it is MO that there two aspects of DR one may consider... One is the "out of the camera" DR which I don't think is that much important, the other is the DR you are left with after processing the file for proper mid-range contrast... and although "proper processing" may be a personal matter for many, I do sense something special on the images that Michael posted... I do think that there is some more "filmish" presentation than the usual digital files till now... But lets wait for the dedicated software first...
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holyhikaru

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I am now waiting for some more reviews to come up and I will consider pulling a "pre-order" trigger.

My most concern is about the image color on CMOS compared to S006 CCD sensor. I am quite sure at this point there wouldn't be much different in sharpness between S007, d810, a7rII, or Pentax.

I am using Sony a7rII right now but still don't like the color compared to my m-p240.
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