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Author Topic: completed first paper custom profile  (Read 22451 times)

sgwrx

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completed first paper custom profile
« on: August 02, 2015, 03:24:26 pm »

hello. i did my first paper custom profile using argyllCMS and colormunki photo. i followed this excellent write up: http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/photography/argyll-print.html. i printed 420 patches on 2 A4 sheets and my results are good.  i have to get my head around this though.

paper: canson infinity baryta photographique
printer: epson 3880 with K3Vm inks
printing from photoshop with Relative Colormetric and BPC

i'm shocked at the difference between canson's profile and my profile when printing a test page from Andrew's website (2014 Printer Test File | A TIFF RGB 16-bit Adobe RGB (1998) test file (NEW).)

1. my profile appears more quite a bit (i'd say a lot) more vibrant in colors, especially in the Y C M gradients. The B looks about the same, the G looks a little more vibrant and a little darker, the R is just plain more red.
2. my profile has more yellow-green colors and olive greens whereas the canson has almost none.
3. my profile's "darker tones/shadows" appear darker overall but i can still see detail.  for example in DD's image, on the lower left corner there is a small chart from blacks to lights right above the word "Date".  the prints look similar and i can see colors in the patches, but as you look at the canson profile print it's like the "brightness" was turned up a tad.
4. my profile's dark blues and dark blue/magentas do not look as vibrant as the canson's. but all other dark saturated colors still have color and again appear more vibrant, but less than mid and lighter colors.
5. many of the colors on the canson profile print just look like one big color.

i don't know how to ask this, but is this most people experience when making their own paper profiles?  to me, it's a good thing. i like it better.  but i'm not looking for "it's your own personal opinnion".

i'm also surprised because my .icm file is 1/2 the size of canson's.  partly due to using only Rel Col when building the profile within Argyll, but even with the other rendering intents by including the AdobeRGB profile at creation time, the profile only increased about 20%. 

finally, as i've said i only used 420 color patches on two A4 sized prints.  perhaps this is too few and i'm getting something that is not accurate?

*all the differences i see in print i also see on-screen when soft proofing in PS.

thanks for your responses.  i apologize if this general idea has been discussed before. i've read many things for a long time and when you actually finally do it, it just seems different than what you read about other's experiences :)

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digitaldog

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 03:33:41 pm »

i don't know how to ask this, but is this most people experience when making their own paper profiles?  to me, it's a good thing. i like it better.  but i'm not looking for "it's your own personal opinnion".

i'm also surprised because my .icm file is 1/2 the size of canson's. 
You prefer the custom profile, that's the idea  ;D
You could surmise that the canned profile isn't so good (not a surprise)
Size doesn't matter, I keep telling my wife that! :D  There could be a lot of metadata inside the profile that add's to it's size.
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Iliah

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2015, 08:58:45 pm »

The number of patches depends on how well-behaved is the printer. For a CMYK press I may use large numbers of patches. Current desktop printers are very well-behaved (I would say Epsons are such for 5 years already at least), so I do not think you a loosing much with 420 patches, especially if you used pre-conditioning. You may find that 2 pre-conditioning steps over 210 patch targets result in more improvement than changing to a 1500+ patches final target. You do not need to re-print and re-measure pre-conditioning targets when you change the ink or open another batch of paper; you just re-use the profile created on the pre-conditioning stage.

Another factor that determines the amount of patches necessary is the paper. For a good paper the above stands, but if the paper is not designed to take the particular ink well, more patches may be needed. To check, I simply print wedges after profiling and check linearity. Free ColorPort is actually a very useful tool to create such patch sets and render those.

To check error numbers, I first print ColorChecker SG and measure it. If the max deltaE2000 is less than 3, in my experience not much can be done to improve the printer profile.
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sgwrx

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2015, 09:46:00 pm »

thanks both.  i know there's a ton of influences, but i've never seen anyone remark that they were shocked at the differences.

i guess this is the point where i pass judgement on my deliberation and purchase of the colormunki photo, it was worth it.  plus i needed to ditch my aged i1d2.
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WayneLarmon

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 11:55:25 am »

Quote
Free ColorPort is actually a very useful tool to create such patch sets and render those.

Unfortunately, X-Rite has discontinued ColorPort

ColorPort Utility Software (Discontinued)

We recommend i1Publish as a replacement for ColorPort Utility Software (Discontinued).

https://www.xrite.com/colorport-utility-software/support/d1168

I've been experimenting with ArgyllCMS targen and printarg but haven't figured out how to make them generate ColorChecker (or similar) clone charts.   I tried printing the Dry Creek Photo electronic versions of the GretagMacbeth ColorChecker charts, but they aren't matching very well (my best matches are by setting Photoshop to "let printer manage colors" and set the printer driver to full auto.)

I was testing 392 patch Argyll profiles.  And profiles made with X-Rite ColorMunki Design.  All made with a new (several months) ColorMunki.  I printed using both relative colorimetric and perceptual.  Prints from each rendering intent had one or more wonky colors (DeltaE2000 > 12.)  But not the same colors.  Most other colors had Delta Es in the 5-7 range.   I was testing by using ArgyllPro ColorMeter and comparing patch by patch against a real ColorChecker Passport.  (I couldn't figure out how to do this test with Argyll chartread.  I have figured out how to use chartread to use the supplied colorchart.ti2 file so I can measure CC(ish) charts, but I don't know enough color science math to write the DeltaE algorithms in a Perl script that would compare .ti3 files that chartread generates.  I can read and parse CGATSish files with no problem, but I am lost with math-to-algorithms.  (i.e., http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?Math.html))

Wayne




« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 12:00:08 pm by WayneLarmon »
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digitaldog

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 11:57:36 am »

Unfortunately, X-Rite has discontinued ColorPort
ColorPort Utility Software (Discontinued)
So is MeasureTool. Doesn't mean it doesn't run under the proper OS and produce the measured data one desires from it. Same with ColorPort.
i1Publish isn't free. 
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Iliah

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2015, 12:42:03 pm »

So is MeasureTool. Doesn't mean it doesn't run under the proper OS and produce the measured data one desires from it. Same with ColorPort.
i1Publish isn't free.  

I still use ColorLab! :)
The lack of decent colour target editors supported by modern OSes is unfortunate, though to make one is pretty simple - but still takes time.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 12:44:09 pm by Iliah »
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WayneLarmon

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2015, 12:48:48 pm »

Quote
So is MeasureTool. Doesn't mean it doesn't run under the proper OS and produce the measured data one desires from it. Same with ColorPort.

Yes, but this knowledge isn't useful if the programs aren't available.  Which is why I was asking about how to do the same thing with Argyll programs (or Perl algorithms.)   Argyll (and color science math) are really powerful, but are sometimes difficult to comprehend.   Even after reading the excellent instructions at http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/photography/argyll-print.html.

As you have noted many times, XRite makes excellent hardware but their software leaves a lot to be desired.  Perhaps we should walk away from XRite software and embrace Argyll.  But some of us need help understanding how to make Argyll dance.

Wayne
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digitaldog

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2015, 12:53:04 pm »

I still use ColorLab! :)
The lack of decent colour target editors supported by modern OSes is unfortunate, though to make one is pretty simple - but still takes time.
I've got on an very old Mac too, it rocks. And yes, it's a shame there are so few tools to edit targets. Sing of the times I guess.
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digitaldog

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2015, 12:53:41 pm »

Yes, but this knowledge isn't useful if the programs aren't available. 
MeasureTool and ColorPort are both available.
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Iliah

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2015, 01:00:21 pm »

I've got on an very old Mac too, it rocks. And yes, it's a shame there are so few tools to edit targets. Sing of the times I guess.
10.6.8 - runs without issues. For more recent OS X versions - Windows ColorLab version and Crossover, smooth.
The 'unfortunate' thing is that I learned to edit CGATS files with available tools manually (ColorLab, ColorPort, Excel, text editor), and have no immediate motivation to build an editor, while having lots of other things to do...
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Iliah

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2015, 01:03:10 pm »

Yes, but this knowledge isn't useful if the programs aren't available.  Which is why I was asking about how to do the same thing with Argyll programs (or Perl algorithms.)   Argyll (and color science math) are really powerful, but are sometimes difficult to comprehend.   Even after reading the excellent instructions at http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/photography/argyll-print.html.

As you have noted many times, XRite makes excellent hardware but their software leaves a lot to be desired.  Perhaps we should walk away from XRite software and embrace Argyll.  But some of us need help understanding how to make Argyll dance.

Wayne
Takes time and practice; it is not that an excellent profile can be obtained by some magic combination of commandline parameters. Argyll mailing list is extremely helpful if you need your questions to be not just answered but discussed in depth. But of course you can try asking here as well.
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Iliah

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WayneLarmon

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2015, 05:06:27 pm »

Quote
Takes time and practice; it is not that an excellent profile can be obtained by some magic combination of commandline parameters.


I know that it takes time and practice.  I've been reading color science textbooks, along with crawling the web for color related material.   Color science is complicated such that it looks to me like it requires a serious formal education before you can write tools from scratch. 

But a cookbook approach is a way to bring tools to ambitious amateurs.  I don't have any formal education in computer science.  But I can get a lot accomplished with some basic programming knowledge and books like the Perl Cookbook

The ArgyllCMS site has the beginnings of an Argyll Cookbook in the Typical usage Scenarios and Examples section.  But...

Quote
Argyll mailing list is extremely helpful if you need your questions to be not just answered but discussed in depth.

I've been subscribed to this list for the past several months.  But it isn't geared towards answering the kinds of questions that are better answered in a cookbook (a typical "recipe" is longer than would comfortably fit in a single email.)

Quote
ColorLab https://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1071&Action=support&SoftwareID=486

Thanks.  I didn't know about this.  I installed it and am exploring it.  I see that it can read Argyll .ti3 files (CGATS variant) but can't read ColorMunki Design .cxf palette files.  Interesting.

It looks like loading .ti3 files that were made by chartreading different CC charts (real XRite CC vs. CC charts printed by my printer with various profiles, etc.) and using ColorLab Tools/Compare lets me compare the Delta Es for different chartread measurements.  Cool.   Now I wonder if there is a way to use any of the Argyll programs to do the same thing?

Quote
The 'unfortunate' thing is that I learned to edit CGATS files with available tools manually (ColorLab, ColorPort, Excel, text editor)

What do you mean by "edit"?  CGATS files are simple ASCII files that can be easily decomposed into key/value pairs and/or list/array/hash fields with Perl regular expressions (or the equivalent in whatever language you prefer.)  It is the manipulation of the data that is difficult (for me), because it requires knowing color science math.   

I could, for example, write a Perl script to read two .ti3 files and parse them into variables.   But I don't know how to do the algorithms that duplicate what ColorLab does with Tools/Compare to generate Delta Es.   But I could if there was a cookbook recipe (math to algorithm) for this particular operation.

Wayne
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howardm

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2015, 06:34:25 pm »

I suppose you could try using 'swig' to wrap littlecms (which has various dE functions) so that you can call it from PERL.

swig.org
http://www.swig.org/Doc3.0/Perl5.html#Perl5

I haven't looked at .ti3 but if it outputs Lab colors, the dE76 equation is super-simple (and 94 isn't hugely difficult either)

and if you want to get really cheesy about it, write the code so it goes out to the web and uses one of the online color libraries.

Iliah

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2015, 06:39:11 pm »

Some ways to compute deltaE:
http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/colverify.html
Another useful, but not free, tool - http://www.babelcolor.com/main_level/PatchTool_features.htm (free pdf doc goes into detail)
Yet another tool we use, http://www.chromix.com/colorthink
And one more, http://www.rmimaging.com/spectrashop.html
Equations at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_difference
If you are OK with Python, there is a free library https://pypi.python.org/pypi/colormath/ with http://python-colormath.readthedocs.org/en/latest/delta_e.html

As to editing targets, it is easier when one has a WYSIWYG editor to see layout of the target and to add/delete particular colours and colour gradients.
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howardm

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2015, 06:43:32 pm »

I'm really surprised there is no PERL CPAN module.

r010159

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2015, 08:31:34 pm »


Preconditioning? Multiple preconditioning  steps? How would one go about this? I use i1Profiler for RGB profiling. I just want a good idea on how I would go about this. As far as the editing of CGARS files, I use an regex style editor that has a GUI interface.
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WayneLarmon

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2015, 03:27:37 pm »

Quote
Preconditioning? Multiple preconditioning  steps? How would one go about this? I use i1Profiler for RGB profiling

I don't know how to do it in i1Profiler.   Preconditioning was discussed in Anders Toger's Inkjet printer profiling with Argyll and Colormunki tutorial that we have been referring to in this thread.

Skim it, but pay special attention to the Target generation details section, which explains why preconditioning may allow for a better choice of target patch colors.

I am just learning Argyll.  I have never used i1Profiler to profile and calibrate printers.  I would really like to read a comparison of Argyll and i1Profiler, done by somebody that knows color science well.

Wayne
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howardm

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Re: completed first paper custom profile
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2015, 03:41:01 pm »

i1P supports what could be called 'post-conditioning' or just optimization.  It generates an X patch target and after printing and scanning, you can 'optimize' the profile by having i1P generate another target that zeros in on parts of the space where it may think things are in need of additional tuning and data points.

Seems like Argyll does it exactly opposite by generating a pre-conditioning target and then you feed those results into the main target generation.
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