Disturbing

[stamper]

Most-of-us don't trophy hunt, so most-of-us can partake of some cheap outrage - stopping trophy hunting wouldn't cost most-of-us anything.

Most-of-us do buy out-of-season produce cheaply in supermarkets, so most-of-us are complicit in the large scale destruction of wildlife habitats to grow those rich country crops.

Animals bred for eating is different from the crime the dentist committed. Do you know the difference are are you deliberately confusing the two to sound different from all of the other posters?

[Isaac]

Animals bred for eating is different from the crime the dentist committed. Do you know the difference are are you deliberately confusing the two to sound different from all of the other posters?

Are "animals bred for eating" ever "out-of-season"? Perhaps you are thinking of Australian organic beef air-freighted to the US?

When I wrote "out-of-season produce" I was thinking of fresh green beans for UK Christmas dinner -- "Local environmentalists blame the water problems here, as in other parts of Kenya, on the country's growing horticultural activities - on excessive abstraction to water the crops, on pollution from pesticide run-off, and on deforestation caused by migrant workers cutting wood for cooking fuel."

[spidermike]

Are "animals bred for eating" ever "out-of-season"? Perhaps you are thinking of Australian organic beef air-freighted to the US?

When I wrote "out-of-season produce" I was thinking of fresh green beans for UK Christmas dinner -- "Local environmentalists blame the water problems here, as in other parts of Kenya, on the country's growing horticultural activities - on excessive abstraction to water the crops, on pollution from pesticide run-off, and on deforestation caused by migrant workers cutting wood for cooking fuel."

Lord save us from the argument of 'moral equivalence'. The resort of the banal and a perfect way to be totally non-judgemental lest (heaven forbid!) we hurt someone's feelings.
We accept killing a few animals so why not kill a few people without compunction - better still let's get a few of the better specimens and let them loose in forests so that hunters can have their fill and maybe keep human population under control. Maybe the dentist can even propose some of his patients who annoy him with their piss-poor dental hygiene and making him suffer with their horrendous bad breath.

[Isaac]

Lord save us from the argument of 'moral equivalence'.

When someone makes the argument of 'moral equivalence' feel free to complain.

The consequences of our rampant consumerism are vastly more destructive.

The resort of the banal and a perfect way to be totally non-judgemental lest (heaven forbid!) we hurt someone's feelings.

Noting that "most-of-us are complicit in the large scale destruction of wildlife habitats" is judgmental and spares no ones feelings.

[Tim Lookingbill]

This issue with trophy hunters being publicly pointed out and shamed is more serious than I thought. As a native Texan I once worked as an art director for an eccentric millionaire with a lot of time on his hands as well as a bunch of trophy animal heads hanging on the walls of his Spanish style hacienda. I was really hired to sort through hundreds of photo prints he took depicting his adventures acquiring these trophies to hang on the walls of his new gaming and fishing resort down in Mexico. I knew I wasn't going to last at that job upon seeing what my real duties were to be.

I didn't and still don't see the appeal of shooting and mounting animals. Any animal! Too much work and expense along with the sight of seeing just the head with those glass eyes staring back at me just creeps me out and reminds me too much of Norman Bates from Hitchcock's "Psycho" movie.

What's telling on the seriousness of this issue is a while back I visited a local long standing, well known taxidermist to see if I could take some shots of the inside of shop and mentioned the name of this millionaire trophy hunter and that's when he decided to say no to my photographing his workshop or any of the pieces. He said he didn't want the photos to end up in online social network sites in order to protect the identity of his clientele. I took it that the millionaire was one of his clients though he never admitted he'ld heard of him.

[Jeremy Roussak]

I find the killing and the petition pretty much equally disturbing.

Jeremy

Jeremy is a lawyer so he will probably have a different perspective on things.

Quite. The comments others have made on the petition make my point. There are two aspects to the detestation of the dentist's action: legal and moral. If what he did was illegal (and I've seen nothing to suggest that it, as opposed to what his guides did, was in fact illegal), then he should be prosecuted; and the penalty, if he is convicted, should be appropriate. It should not be influenced by any hysterical rants.

Morally, it's an entirely different matter. The thought processes, if any, involved in deciding to kill a lion for fun mystify me; but then, much that is beautiful, both natural and man-made, is wilfully destroyed by vandals and their thought processes, whether mindless or underscored by religious fanaticism, mystify me too. If people are sufficiently troubled by his actions to boycott his practice, that's his problem and their affair: I doubt I'll ever find myself in need of his services, so I don't take a view on a personal approach.

What also mystifies me (maybe it's just an easy thing to do) is the hysterical mentality of the animal rights fanatics.

Hence my being equally disturbed.

Jeremy

[Riaan van Wyk]

I find the killing and the petition pretty much equally disturbing.
Jeremy

And so I find the hysterical petition to be disturbing.

If only the same focus could be on the 1251 rhinos that were poached in 2014 in South Africa and the 393 up to April this year that is on the one lion or polar bear that was shot somewhere in the world it would maybe make some slight difference to the rhino population that is fast disappearing here.

https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/poaching_statistics

[Misirlou]

I happen to have hunted animals on occasion, for the sole purposes of eating them. Never once for obtaining any kind of trophy. I only went after species that were so plentiful as to need human culling, since the creatures that naturally preyed upon them had long since been eliminated from the areas in question. In one case, I was in a survival situation, and trapped a few small ground squirrels, which turned out to be the basis for perhaps the most unpleasant soup I've ever tasted.

My personal feeling is that anyone who regularly eats meat should strongly consider hunting once, or at the least "cleaning" an animal, so you get the fullest possible understanding of what it means to kill another creature with the intention of consuming it. I'm sure some will be terribly outraged by that, and I certainly accept that as your prerogative.

At any rate, one of my great uncles (who passed away in the early 1960s) was in fact a trophy hunter. He was a sort of Teddy Roosevelt kind of character, and passed away in the early 1960s. He'd grown up in a remote, mountainous wilderness where hunting was a form of survival, but eventually made a small fortune operating heavy equipment, and thus had the means to travel the world in search of trophy game. Despite his wealth in later years, he still hunted during legal seasons. He was particularly fond of squirrel meat, something I'll never understand.

Being a trophy guy, he had a strong relationship with a local taxidermist. For reasons lost to history, he had the taxidermist mount one of his squirrels in a human stance; sitting as if on a chair or something. I don't really know why, but his wife sewed a little suit for it too, and thus began one of the strangest projects I've ever encountered. Eventually, they constructed a large diorama "squirrel wedding." I believe there are about 100 squirrels and chipmunks in it, each dressed in their finest Sunday outfit. There are elaborately crafted pews for each row of guests, complete with tiny hymnals. There's a full carriage, ring bearers, you get the picture.

My family is still in possession of this bizarre artifact. It was once featured on the cover for an album by a well-known punk rock band, and a famous documentary film maker is in the early stages of filming a feature about it. Really.

http://www.amazon.com/Crazy-Uncle-Pauls-Dead-Squirrel/dp/B000001V1J

[Manoli]

Quite. The comments others have made on the petition make my point.

No, they really don't. Even a cursory review of the news reports would have indicated the seriousness and depth of ill-feeling that this was to generate. So all it shows, at best, is a rather superficial glossing over the real 'rub'.

If what he did was illegal (and I've seen nothing to suggest that it, as opposed to what his guides did, was in fact illegal), then he should be prosecuted; and the penalty, if he is convicted, should be appropriate.

The Zimbabwean Parks Authority statement says it all : “The rules are clear in Zimbabwe that no protected lions should be hunted. Both the professional hunter and landowner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt”

According to a police spokeswoman, If convicted, the men face up to 15 years in prison. Palmer also faces poaching charges,  “We arrested two people and now we are looking for Palmer in connection with the same case,” she said.

Cecil was shot with a bow (by Palmer), injured, pursued for close on 40 hours then shot, skinned, beheaded – and finally attempts were made to hide the GPS collar. Not exactly the innocent acquiescence of a naÏf.

For the manner and duplicity of the crime (again, if he's convicted) - I'd say 15 years without parole, in a Zimbabwean jail sounds about right. That he's also got previous 'form' for similar crimes should, of course, not be considered in the sentencing for this one. But it certainly does no harm in appeasing any thoughts about a miscarriage of justice.

[Alan Klein]

The taking of this lion may have been illegal.  But trophy hunting is encouraged by many countries in Africa.  They make big bucks on hunting fees and money spent by hunters that support the local economy.    There's a lot of trophy hunting here in America.   Some hunters use bow and arrow to make it more challenging than guns.   People mount antlers from elk, deer etc.  I think the problem, beside the illegal nature of taking this particular lion, is that this lion was "friendly" and "sweet".  If the dentist shot a nasty crocodile or big slimy lizard, it wouldn't even be news. 

[AlterEgo]

But trophy hunting is encouraged by many countries in Africa.  They make big bucks on hunting fees and money spent by hunters that support the local economy.

right... and there was a time when trade in slaves was actually encouraged by many "countries" in Africa, no... so ?

  There's a lot of trophy hunting here in America.   Some hunters use bow and arrow to make it more challenging than guns.   People mount antlers from elk, deer etc.  I think the problem, beside the illegal nature of taking this particular lion, is that this lion was "friendly" and "sweet".  If the dentist shot a nasty crocodile or big slimy lizard, it wouldn't even be news.  

true, and it takes a particular outrageous killing of a negro to give some attention to the situation with those matters in USA, no ? so is the situation with wildlife in Africa... hopefully Cecil's death will not be in vain.

[Alan Klein]

Well, I wouldn't compare killing of humans and the slave trade with hunting.  My point was that although you (and I) don't hunt,  many people do and many places allow even encourage it.  While there were violations in this case (the lion was in a protected area), hunting lions apparently is legal there.  People in the US hunt bear, deer, elk, moose, squirrels, duck (Donald) , water fowl, etc.  States reap the bounty from hunting licenses and permits, companies for equipment, hotels and towns and camps when hunters stay overnight,  etc.  Also hunting reduces over-population that would get out of hand because we have pushed out their natural hunters like wolves.  Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. 

[AlterEgo]

Well, I wouldn't compare killing of humans and the slave trade with hunting. 

why ? I am talking about the local powers making profit from the business... so the mere fact that some activity brings $$$ does not mean it shall continue

[AlterEgo]

Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. 

I am pro hunting to control the game population, eradicate disease, protect humans from attacks (nothing wrong to shoot Cecil if he attempts to eat you or yours outside of the nature park), may be protects crops in some cased or provide food (not lions and not to dentists) ... I am against hunting as a sport or entertainment or for profit (other than see above about crops)

[NancyP]

Well, I am grateful to those hunters who keep the local white-tailed deer population under control. Who wants starving sick deer, which is what you get with over-population? The only other predator of the deer, besides the hunter, is ..... the automobile. BTW, people eat their venison, and if by chance the hunter doesn't want the meat, the state will pay to butcher the animal and will distribute the meat to homeless centers and food banks.

[Alan Klein]

Quote from: Alan Klein on Today at 07:39:26 PM
Well, I wouldn't compare killing of humans and the slave trade with hunting.

Reply #33 on: Today at 08:21:42 PM
why ? I am talking about the local powers making profit from the business... so the mere fact that some activity brings $$$ does not mean it shall continue

Why?  To equate slavery and killing of humans to hunting demeans the value of human life.  People are calling for the death of the hunter.  Our value system is all screwed up. 

[LesPalenik]

A new unpalatable dimension to the word 'sport' ..

You can tell he is genuinely happy about the dead Cecil. After all, they successfully lured the cat out from the protected zone, he got to shoot at him first with a bow and arrow (btw, was it from a safe, elevated hide or from the comfort of the truck?), then they had a real hunt for 40 hours, and finally someone (was it the same or a more competent shooter?) got more opportunities to kill the monster. Quite an adventure and what an exciting sport! And then comes the icing on the cake - through lucky circumstances or as God's gift, they even found a collar with a functioning GPS on Cecil's neck. That would put a smile on any like-minded sportsman.

The American Dental association could use this picture with a caption - "The Killer Smile". Or maybe they should just take his license away to keep some respect for the profession.

[stamper]

Are "animals bred for eating" ever "out-of-season"? Perhaps you are thinking of Australian organic beef air-freighted to the US?

When I wrote "out-of-season produce" I was thinking of fresh green beans for UK Christmas dinner -- "Local environmentalists blame the water problems here, as in other parts of Kenya, on the country's growing horticultural activities - on excessive abstraction to water the crops, on pollution from pesticide run-off, and on deforestation caused by migrant workers cutting wood for cooking fuel."

Why don't you stick to the subject? Do you condone the killing or are you against it? If you aren't sure of what the subject is then ask your carer for help.

[LesPalenik]

Why don't you stick to the subject? Do you condone the killing or are you against it? If you aren't sure of what the subject is then ask your carer for help.

Right on! Surely they didn't use fresh beans as bait (unless they fed the beans to the hunters before the hunt).

Could be a time-honed and highly refined technique to minimize the value of previous posts of his opponents or possibly some kind of dysfunction.
 

[stamper]

Does anyone think that after this incident that dentists will be disliked as much as lawyers?