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Author Topic: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?  (Read 8710 times)

Bob Rockefeller

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MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« on: July 25, 2015, 09:15:35 am »

What is the group's experience with MOAB's Juniper Baryta Rag (http://moabpaper.com/juniper-baryta-rag/)?

It claims to be an OBA-free, 100% cotton, true baryta paper.

How does it stand up against other archival baryta papers?

Shades of Paper doesn't carry MOAB, but Atlex does at $120 for 25 17x22 sheets.

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Bob Rockefeller
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Mark D Segal

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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2015, 09:35:50 am »

Bob,

Further to the above: not clear what you mean by a "true Baryta paper". All of them that include this compound perhaps are "true Baryta papers"? But the real issue in respect of your questions on archival properties is what else they include and how the chemicals interact. There has been a lot of interesting recent discussion about this, in particular on the current IGFS thread, where it has become totally clarified that IGFS for example, is not OBA free despite previous representations. There are apparently issues of what Mark MacCormack-Goodhart calls the "LILIS" effect that are not fully appraised - worth having a look at what he says there if you haven't already. I mention this to suggest that there may not yet be fulsome answers for some of what you appear to be asking about, given how new the MOAB offering is. Since I wrote my review I haven't checked whether any permanence data has become available on this paper. If there were, it could come from MOAB, Wilhelm or Aardenburg.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2015, 09:40:51 am »

There has been a lot of interesting recent discussion about this, in particular on the current IGFS thread, where it has become totally clarified that IGFS for example, is not OBA free despite previous representations. There are apparently issues of what Mark MacCormack-Goodhart calls the "LILIS" effect that are not fully appraised - worth having a look at what he says there if you haven't already.

I have been following that discussion, but don't yet fully appreciate the significance. I was sad to see that IGFS, which I know is one of your favorites - for good reason, does actually have OBAs.

I need to re-read some of that thread, but is the LILIS effect limited to papers with OBAs, or papers with baryta coating?
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Bob Rockefeller
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2015, 09:53:27 am »

Yes Bob, I was sad too - but more sad about the previous misrepresentations (which shouldn't happen) than the fact of the OBAs themselves, because in this paper there is said to be far less of it  than in some others. Mark tells me the LILIS effect isn't an issue for dark storage but could be for display.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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MHMG

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2015, 12:29:03 pm »

I have been following that discussion, but don't yet fully appreciate the significance. I was sad to see that IGFS, which I know is one of your favorites - for good reason, does actually have OBAs.

I need to re-read some of that thread, but is the LILIS effect limited to papers with OBAs, or papers with baryta coating?


Light induced staining/discoloration (LIS) of media can be due to many different chemical reactions in the media. Perhaps the most well known one is the rapid paper yellowing that occurs in cheap wood pulp papers where the lignin content has not been removed nor the paper acid neutralized. So any media, with or without OBAs, needs to be evaluated for resistance to yellowing and discoloration, but in general OBA-free papers are indeed more resistant to yellowing over time. However, early production lots of Museo Silver Rag paper are an example of an OBA-free cotton rag paper that also had some yellowing issues. Therefore, although I'm optimistic the Moab Juniper paper will have stable media white point properties, it nevertheless needs to be tested to know for sure.

Papers with OBA "yellow" over time simply due to loss of fluorescence, but the belief that the faded OBA degradation by-products merely remain colorless over time is also suspect.   The LILIS effect is a particularly novel media yellowing reaction involving the OBA content and very possibly related to the use of TiO2 whitening agents combined with those OBAs as well.  RC photo media are especially prone to high levels of the LILIS effect because they typically have significant OBA content, and the OBAs are usually embedded right in the PE-TiO2 layers of the RC photo media. OBAs are also typically present in the RC paper core as well.  The LILIS effect is novel because it has a clear reciprocity law failure (RLF) characteristic. The famous reciprocity law in photography states that light intensity x time = exposure, so when high versus low intensity levels along with their respective amounts of time needed to produce equivalent exposures don't produce the same results, that means the reciprocity law failed in that situation.  Thus, the build up of yellowish stain on display due to the LILIS effect depends on the average illumination levels on display which is why I have taken to calling it a low-intensity light induced staining effect. Perhaps a more accurate description would be "light induced discoloration with RLF".  The RLF aspect of the problem makes it difficult to simulate properly in high intensity accelerated light fade studies, and consequently, it has been going under reported in many of the published print longevity ratings. More research is definitely needed, but in the meantime, the printmaking community needs to be informed that virtually all of today's RC photo type papers (and some non RC papers as well) exhibit the LILIS phenomenon. The only RC paper I've tested to date that doesn't seem to be affected by LILIS (so far in testing) is Epson Proofing Paper White Semimatte. EpPPWSM seems to be an exception to the rule because it does not have any OBAs incorporated into the PE-TiO2 layer. Almost every other RC photo paper on the market, including all the popular new "metallic" RC papers, employ OBAs in the PE-TiO2 layers.

In the day when color RC photos were comprised of rather fugitive dyes that would fade badly in a few decades, it could have been argued that RC media yellowing was not the weak link in the "archival" properties of the print.  However, with today's high stability pigmented ink sets, the battleground for the most "archival" prints is now clearly shifting to the respective properties of the media.  I have attached a sample page which shows the LILIS effect in the Aardenburg 30 patch color target printed on Epson Premium Luster RC photo paper using a very high stability ink set (HP Vivera pigments on an HP Z3200 printer). For comparison, I have also included the results from the same printer and ink set but printed on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta (a non RC paper containing no TiO2 and no OBAs). The exposure dose was 140 Mluxhrs (equals 70 "Wilhelm years" on display) and then the samples were retired to dark storage. They were measured after nine months in dark storage.  At the high intensity illumination level of the light fade unit the LILIS effect was suppressed and was not present in the EPPL paper immediately after removal from the light fade test unit, but serious yellow discoloration is now forming rapidly in dark storage.  At nine months the b* value of the EPPL paper's white patch was 6.0.  I just measured again today (another month in the dark) and it has increased further to 7.3. The yellowing reaction is apparently not yet near completion. I don't know where it will end up, but it's not acceptable, IMHO, even now.

Anyway, take a look at the two papers' performance in the attachment below, and see if the LILIS effect is something for serious printmakers to be concerned about.  As a printmaker trying to make long lasting prints which are highly resistant to change over time, I personally think this amount of media yellowing is a serious issue, and I want to be able to evaluate media yellowing properties better than I have to date :)

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 01:42:47 pm by MHMG »
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2015, 12:48:06 pm »

Mark,

Thanks for the wonderful summary of this issue! And the attachment shows the issue very clearly. I don't know how anyone attempting to create "archival" prints couldn't be concerned and want/need to know more about the media they choose to use. And I though it was as simple as "pick a paper with no lignin, no acid, no OBAs" and you're good. :(

I just updated my registration at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com to help fund this research a little.
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Jglaser757

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2015, 06:14:30 pm »

I have done a comparison of juniper baryta to museo silver rag and the dynamic range of the silver rag is "richer" and a little bit better contrast
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2015, 06:25:31 pm »

I have done a comparison of juniper baryta to museo silver rag and the dynamic range of the silver rag is "richer" and a little bit better contrast

"Richer" as in a greater dynamic range?

Is that a subjective or objective (instrumented) measure?
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Bob Rockefeller
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Jglaser757

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2015, 08:05:44 pm »

"Richer" as in a greater dynamic range?

Is that a subjective or objective (instrumented) measure?


Subjective, but yes dynamic range. Separately you would never know it, but up against one another, no contest.
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hugowolf

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2015, 09:51:31 pm »

They only sent me two sheets; enough to make a profile, but not enough to do test prints. I presume they have profiles available now?

It is a warm paper, less 'white' than all the other non-OBA cotton baryta type papers. If you look at the spectral reflectance plot, it has a precipitous drop at around 430-420 mn, the sort of thing you would see with a paper that has OBAs, or it is absorbing UV or near-UV light. So without a white ink, those light light colours will be warm.

It is difficult to see it being anything other than yet another baryta paper; there are so many around. It is still something that BC needed to add to their portfolio.

Brian A

 
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2015, 04:42:38 am »

They only sent me two sheets; enough to make a profile, but not enough to do test prints. I presume they have profiles available now?

It is a warm paper, less 'white' than all the other non-OBA cotton baryta type papers. If you look at the spectral reflectance plot, it has a precipitous drop at around 430-420 mn, the sort of thing you would see with a paper that has OBAs, or it is absorbing UV or near-UV light. So without a white ink, those light light colours will be warm.

It is difficult to see it being anything other than yet another baryta paper; there are so many around. It is still something that BC needed to add to their portfolio.

Brian A

 

MOAB has more papers that show that drop at 430-420 NM. So far I interpreted it as mainly TiO2 whitening agent used throughout the paper construction, TiO2 absorbs UV light too but emits the energy as heat beyond infrared. I actually think it has less BaSO4 than other papers described as Baryta, BaSO4 would keep the spectral plot higher between 380 to 430 NM.
Red River Aurora Natural shows some resemblance in its spectral plot.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots



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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2015, 05:00:45 pm »

Mark,

When you did your review for Luminous Landscape, did you notice any of the linting from the Juniper Baryta Rag that might cause your printer the problems you've reported with the Canson Platine?
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Bob Rockefeller
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2015, 05:54:44 pm »

No, but they gave me very little paper to run through it. I had two letter-size sheets for generating a profile and two more sheets for running test prints and that was it. With that throughput there were no problems. Not sure what would happen if I ran say half a dozen A3+ sheets, as I did with the Canson Platine; possibly the particulates accumulate before causing a blockage. But it's likely that not all printer models necessarily exhibit this issue and my 4900 did recover from the Platine, albeit with a fair bit of cleaning that took a chunk of time, so I think it safe enough to try; the worst that can happen is you'll have "x" minutes of nozzle cleaning to do.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2015, 05:56:55 pm »

No, but they gave me very little paper to run through it. I had two letter-size sheets for generating a profile and two more sheets for running test prints and that was it. With that throughput there were no problems. Not sure what would happen if I ran say half a dozen A3+ sheets, as I did with the Canson Platine; possibly the particulates accumulate before causing a blockage. But it's likely that not all printer models necessarily exhibit this issue and my 4900 did recover from the Platine, albeit with a fair bit of cleaning that took a chunk of time, so I think it safe enough to try; the worst that can happen is you'll have "x" minutes of nozzle cleaning to do.

And perhaps not all rag papers "shed" as does Canson Platine?
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Bob Rockefeller
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2015, 06:04:52 pm »

Very possibly. I think trying is the only way to know for sure.
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MichaelEzra

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2016, 07:18:26 pm »

Here is a comparison of ICC profiles of MOAB Juniper Rag with Museo Silver Rag.
Silver Rag seems to have slightly deeper blacks, but Moab paper has larger gamut.
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hugowolf

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2016, 07:48:05 pm »

Here is a comparison of ICC profiles of MOAB Juniper Rag with Museo Silver Rag.
Silver Rag seems to have slightly deeper blacks, but Moab paper has larger gamut.

Are these for the same printer. Are they custom profiles or paper manufacturer profiles?

Brian A
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MichaelEzra

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2016, 09:26:17 pm »

These profiles are the respective paper manufacturer's profiles for Epson 7800.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 11:25:24 pm by MichaelEzra »
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hugowolf

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Re: MOAB Juniper Baryta Rag?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2016, 11:45:50 pm »

These profiles are the respective paper manufacturer's profiles for Epson 7800.

So, unfortuately nothing new about a modern inkset.

Brian A
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