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Author Topic: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas  (Read 4756 times)

printbreakr

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Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« on: July 24, 2015, 01:25:20 pm »

I've been experimenting with varnishing images printed with dye ink on canvas. (When I say "dye" I don't mean sublimation, just regular inkjet dye ink.) I like dye ink because it produces some very vivid colors. I'm getting a slight amount of magenta ink on my foam roller which, if I keep rolling, will slowly tint the rest of the canvas ever so slightly pink. I am using Epson matte canvas and the matte version of Glamour 2.

Moreover my colors are becoming slightly brighter (diluted?).

Breathing Color seems to say it's okay to use Glamour 2 on dye ink if you are very careful. I'm curious if anyone has ever tried this with good results. I'm guessing the Glamour 2 is causing the ink (especially magenta) to re-saturate and dilute. It could also be that my print settings are simply putting out too much ink for the Epson canvas to absorb in the first place. I did let the canvases dry for a couple days so I don't think that's the issue.

If anyone has been down this road, let me know if it's worth persuing or if I should just stick with pigment inks.
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enduser

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2015, 06:49:01 pm »

The thing about dye ink on matte canvas is that it is much much more resistant to scratches and flaking than pigment ink.  If you like the look just use a solvent matte spray for some extra protection.

It depends on your market - the decor buyer wil be happy with dye on matte, but if you're doing work for public galleries it's pigment all the way: in my humble opinion.
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printbreakr

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2015, 08:14:15 pm »

If you like the look just use a solvent matte spray for some extra protection.

The problem I have with solvent matte spray is I find it tends to cause my canvas to crack while wrapping the corners (on the full-crease corner part). I have to wrap and then spray to get best results. Solvent glossy works great but for this project I wanted to use matte. I'm also afraid the solvent will make me sick over time so I was hoping for something water-based and less toxic.

It depends on your market - the decor buyer wil be happy with dye on matte, but if you're doing work for public galleries it's pigment all the way: in my humble opinion.

I'm curious is this just an artistic opinion or are there technical reasons for this? I understand Epson says "thou shalt not use dye for giclee," but I think dye looks better. I use high quality 3rd party dye inks and get fantastic results -- better than pigment to my eye.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 08:18:59 pm by printbreakr »
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MHMG

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2015, 08:42:58 pm »

...I use high quality 3rd party dye inks and get fantastic results -- better than pigment to my eye.

Just about any dye set, in terms of initial image appearance, will rival and often times exceed pigment inks. If dye-based ink sets had the same lightfastness, humidity resistance, water resistance, gas fade resistance, as pigmented ink sets, pigmented ink sets wouldn't have any reason to exist in the inkjet market. Period.

On the other hand, dyes remain in the market precisely due to their initial image quality, and for the fact that in consumer inkjet printers, they have better shelf life and less tendency to clog. Epson, HP, and Canon have worked hard to improve upon the weaknesses of natural dye stuffs by offering synthetic dyes sets that have good colorfulness and much improved light and gas fade resistance. Nevertheless, although much improved, even the best dye sets on the market today they still fall short of OEM pigmented ink sets in terms of light and gas fade resistance. Otherwise, this discussion wouldn't be taking place :)

I know of no "high quality"  third party dye set that even comes close to Canon's Chromalife 100+ or Epson's Claria dye sets in terms of light fade resistance, and yet even these very fine OEM dye sets are still more fragile than the respective OEM pigmented ink sets.  Just sayin... some folks do want long term durability in their finished prints over and above their desire for great initial image appearance.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 08:51:43 pm by MHMG »
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printbreakr

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2015, 10:02:38 pm »

Just about any dye set, in terms of initial image appearance, will rival and often times exceed pigment inks. If dye-based ink sets had the same lightfastness, humidity resistance, water resistance, gas fade resistance, as pigmented ink sets, pigmented ink sets wouldn't have any reason to exist in the inkjet market. Period.

On the other hand, dyes remain in the market precisely due to their initial image quality, and for the fact that in consumer inkjet printers, they have better shelf life and less tendency to clog. Epson, HP, and Canon have worked hard to improve upon the weaknesses of natural dye stuffs by offering synthetic dyes sets that have good colorfulness and much improved light and gas fade resistance. Nevertheless, although much improved, even the best dye sets on the market today they still fall short of OEM pigmented ink sets in terms of light and gas fade resistance. Otherwise, this discussion wouldn't be taking place :)

I know of no "high quality"  third party dye set that even comes close to Canon's Chromalife 100+ or Epson's Claria dye sets in terms of light fade resistance, and yet even these very fine OEM dye sets are still more fragile than the respective OEM pigmented ink sets.  Just sayin... some folks do want long term durability in their finished prints over and above their desire for great initial image appearance.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com



Wow Mark thanks for that awesome explanation! That's some great info to consider.

I hope you don't mind me asking one clarification -- if I use a solvent spray that advertises UV protection, would this compensate for lack of fade-resistance in dye ink? I'm talking about something like Krylon 1305 Glossy (http://www.krylon.com/products/uvresistant-clear-coating/). Admittedly I have not done much light testing, but from my scratch tests and liquid tests it seems to really lock-in the image.

Thanks again for the extremely useful info!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 10:06:24 pm by printbreakr »
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MHMG

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2015, 07:58:13 am »


..I hope you don't mind me asking one clarification -- if I use a solvent spray that advertises UV protection, would this compensate for lack of fade-resistance in dye ink? I'm talking about something like Krylon 1305 Glossy (http://www.krylon.com/products/uvresistant-clear-coating/). Admittedly I have not done much light testing, but from my scratch tests and liquid tests it seems to really lock-in the image.

The classical role of varnishes (I use the term loosely to mean all kinds of liquid overcoating materials) is both decorative and protective. Visual improvements in gloss or luster, scratch and abrasion resistance, as well as resistance to other liquids like water are among the typical benefits. A compatible overcoat can also reduce photo oxidition of the dyes or pigments underneath, so improvements in lightfastness and gas fade resistances, sometimes as much as 2-3x, can sometimes be achieved. That's the good news. The bad news is that there are many chemistry compatibility issues as well, particularly with aqueous inkjet inks (both dye and pigment, but especially with dyes). The solvent in the protective spray, for example, can cause further dye migration, thus changing the initial image quality for the worse. With pigmented inks, the varnish solvent can attack the pigment encapsulation polymers used by the manufacturer to formulate the ink, ultimately causing a reduction in light fade resistance rather than the expected gain.  Only reasonable advice I can give you is to test for initial image compatibility on your own, but then refer to the literature to see if anyone has done any long term testing of your chosen ink/media/coating combination. Unfortunately, this type of rigorous compatibility testing is few and far between, so sometimes at best it's all a crapshoot for the artist working with his or her own combination of materials.

Lastly, take care to use good ventilation when you apply many of these liquid overcoats.  Sprays like Krylon can have some nasty consequences for human health as well if care isn't taken to avoid inhalation of the solvents.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Ken Doo

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2015, 10:36:41 am »

Rolling coatings on canvas requires a rather gentle hand and patience. I'll place bets that if you went to spraying by HVLP spray gun, you'll find it much easier, faster, better uniformity in product----and your concerns about dye ink left on your roller would go away.  :)

ken

printbreakr

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2015, 07:55:55 pm »

The classical role of varnishes (I use the term loosely to mean all kinds of liquid overcoating materials) is both decorative and protective. Visual improvements in gloss or luster, scratch and abrasion resistance, as well as resistance to other liquids like water are among the typical benefits. A compatible overcoat can also reduce photo oxidition of the dyes or pigments underneath, so improvements in lightfastness and gas fade resistances, sometimes as much as 2-3x, can sometimes be achieved. That's the good news. The bad news is that there are many chemistry compatibility issues as well, particularly with aqueous inkjet inks (both dye and pigment, but especially with dyes). The solvent in the protective spray, for example, can cause further dye migration, thus changing the initial image quality for the worse. With pigmented inks, the varnish solvent can attack the pigment encapsulation polymers used by the manufacturer to formulate the ink, ultimately causing a reduction in light fade resistance rather than the expected gain.  Only reasonable advice I can give you is to test for initial image compatibility on your own, but then refer to the literature to see if anyone has done any long term testing of your chosen ink/media/coating combination. Unfortunately, this type of rigorous compatibility testing is few and far between, so sometimes at best it's all a crapshoot for the artist working with his or her own combination of materials.

Lastly, take care to use good ventilation when you apply many of these liquid overcoats.  Sprays like Krylon can have some nasty consequences for human health as well if care isn't taken to avoid inhalation of the solvents.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Thanks for the insights. They are very helpful and appreciated.
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printbreakr

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2015, 07:58:32 pm »

Rolling coatings on canvas requires a rather gentle hand and patience. I'll place bets that if you went to spraying by HVLP spray gun, you'll find it much easier, faster, better uniformity in product----and your concerns about dye ink left on your roller would go away.  :)

ken

Actually I tried HVLP today. The issue with the roller tinting was solved but the colors still shifted.

PS. I saw you on Youtube. You make great videos!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 08:07:59 pm by printbreakr »
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printbreakr

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2015, 08:06:55 pm »

For posterity: From my tests Glamour 2 on Dye Ink does not work well. I have tried different concentrations from pure Glamour 2 all the way to 1:1 dilution (and different combinations in between). Spraying is slightly better than rolling because you don't get a tinted image but still it causes a color shift. I'd say my guesstimate is that the image will get about 15% brighter as it dries after being fully (but not overly) saturated in Glamour 2. If you roll, also expect the possibility that you will tint the image. This was only a problem with magenta ink for me though. The ink starts to run slightly after about 45 seconds of Glamour 2 coverage and I got about a 1% magenta tint per roll after that. It's not major, and not a big deal for business graphics, but for art it's unacceptable. The tinting was most noticeable in lighter areas. It was not noticeable in very dark areas.

So my opinion is for dye ink on canvas (taking into account issues of longevity), stick to solvent varnishing and invest in a good spray booth and respiratory protection system. That's what I plan to do.

I have had no problems with Glamour 2 on pigment ink so this is not a knock on Glamour 2 used on the mainstream ink project.
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printbreakr

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2015, 10:06:14 pm »

I know of no "high quality"  third party dye set that even comes close to Canon's Chromalife 100+ or Epson's Claria dye sets in terms of light fade resistance, and yet even these very fine OEM dye sets are still more fragile than the respective OEM pigmented ink sets.  Just sayin... some folks do want long term durability in their finished prints over and above their desire for great initial image appearance.

After further testing and gaining a little more experience I can honestly conclude third party dye inks don't even come close to Claria. You were 100% right on this. Thank you.

At this point, I don't think I will be using third party dye ink for anything other than basic, less-important office printing.
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Some Guy

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Re: Breathing Color Glamour 2 on Dye Ink + Canvas
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2015, 12:08:50 am »

I'll add one thing I've run into with either brushing or rolling inkjet materials with an overcoat.

Sometimes the receiver coating in the material comes off as a magenta tint.  Try swabbing some ink onto the surface and watch what happens to the border area around the ink, it turns magenta depending on the coating.  Probably why the sprays tend to do a better job with some materials than brushing or rolling.  Seems more prevalent in dye ink too as it is absorbed more leaving the coating exposed than sitting on top like a pigment.

SG
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