Poll

As straight dSLRs - no tethering, central shutter, or C1/LR comparison.

XF 250C is better
- 11 (25.6%)
Pentax 645Z
- 28 (65.1%)
Substantially the same
- 4 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 42


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Author Topic: As straight MF SLRs which is better - Phase XF IQ2/3/50 or Pentax 645Z?  (Read 42744 times)

jco611

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"The XF system has the new Schneider 35mm LS f/3.5, which is unmatched, except for tech cam lenses.  The Pentax has nothing of the sort.  The XF is clearly a better system, and it's also way more expensive.

What's the point of this thread?"

The Pentax has 28-45mm....
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synn

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Couldn't agree more.

I doubt my cameras measure up to and appear in the all time top 100 DickXO camera sensor charts and I could care less.

Just choose a camera - any camera - that you love using and use it.

Exactly. Also, the complete workflow is very important to those interested in photography and not just the body.
When I got my Credo, the 645D was about 50%  and an H4D about 10-15% cheaper, but I needed a solution that tethers robustly, uses leaf shutters and plays nice with C1P. I am not and will never ignore those criteria and focus "Only on the body" or whatever that the trollmasters set as a judgment criteria.

A body alone isn't making images for me. The entire workflow is.


However the poll seems to indicate that it is not "clearly" the better system - other photographers have seem to have different priorities.


Priorities such as not bothering to answer troll polls, yes.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 07:54:50 am by synn »
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RobertJ

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The Pentax has 28-45mm....

Not in the same league.

The point of this thread is to hear you say that you prefer to use an XF because it can use the new Schneider 35. :)
However the poll seems to indicate that it is not "clearly" the better system - other photographers have seem to have different priorities.

Uh huh.  Are you using this data to publish another article, with your Ph. D. in Trolling?
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eronald

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Uh huh.  Are you using this data to publish another article, with your Ph. D. in Trolling?

I think the profession prefers the appellation "Controversialist".

Of course one shouldn't overdo it :) but sometimes one does get interesting outcomes after the first reactions.

Paradoxically, a thread where these features have been excluded has demonstrated that if somebody needs leaf shutters, robust tethered workflow and a removable sensor then the XF is probably a no-brainer. Synn is a good representative of customers who have found in Phase a product that is ideal for them, can articulate it, but for some strange reason believe that their criteria are universal.

Another conclusion is that we all agree that the Phase software output quality is very very good. Phase really need to work to keep their software at the top of its game.

Another thought for now is that P1 has a protected market -see above- and that therefore the firm which is going to get hit hardest and first by the demonstrable popularity of Pentax and the price differential may not be Phase but strangely enough Hassy.

Pentax has clearly now got mindshare. Will this translate into the corresponding sales? It should, but 35mm seems to also being eating into the 645 buys ... again. But we all knew that, it's a cyclic thing, 35mm chewing and swallowing the 645 cake one bite at a time.

Last, not least, I think the good people at Pentax are watching this thread carefully and are probably putting tethering and leaf shutters on their priority list :)

Edmund

« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 04:31:20 pm by eronald »
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synn

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Synn is a good representative of customers who have found in Phase a product that is ideal for them, can articulate it, but for some strange reason believe that their criteria are universal.



I never said that my criteria are universal. I know plenty of people whoa re happy with MF systems other than Phamiya and fully understand and respect their choices.
What I said was that this thread and the criteria you have posted in it are stupid and that you're a garden variety troll. I stand by that statement.
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Dshelly

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I own the 645z and while I like the image quality, I much prefer my 3 year-old Canon 5D3. It just feels very good in my hands, and I don't have to question which lenses are appropriate for the client's needs. The menu is intuitive, as are the controls on the camera body. Doesn't compete with MF in terms of detail, but the camera has been a pleasure to use and a reliable workhorse for commercial advertising. For the work I shoot, which is primarily key art (posters) for entertainment projects, the size I work in is 27"x40" and the 5D works just fine within those parameters. I've also used the 5D to shoot video on nearly a hundred EPK's, so this camera has paid for itself nearly 1000 times over in the time I've owned it.

The only reason I bought the 645z is because clients are now demanding higher resolution files. In the past I've rented Phase and Hassy, and they feel about the same as the 645z. There's really not too many distinctions between the cameras. If you use a certain brand long enough, it becomes intuitive and a pleasure to use.
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DavidLondon

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Owner of 645z,p30+ on Contax, plus canons. Hopefully the question from the OP was slightly serious but as the professionals on here know mostly unanswerable without putting the answers in context. If I'm doing a job when the client wants to hang about micro-managing on a big screen as I shoot then the p30 plus Contax rules. If I'm booked to go on a tricky location with little time for tethering or no need for client supervision, plus need the quality of MF then the Pentax rules. If the job involves people, animals or objects moving about at speed then the canons rule.
Never tried the Phase XF, all these cameras do me fine at the moment.
Best feature of the Pentax, that great flip out screen, my knees thank you Mr Pentax.
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jsiva

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Last, not least, I think the good people at Pentax are watching this thread carefully and are probably putting tethering and leaf shutters on their priority list :)

Edmund

Well....that's embarrassing.
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eronald

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Owner of 645z,p30+ on Contax, plus canons. Hopefully the question from the OP was slightly serious but as the professionals on here know mostly unanswerable without putting the answers in context. If I'm doing a job when the client wants to hang about micro-managing on a big screen as I shoot then the p30 plus Contax rules. If I'm booked to go on a tricky location with little time for tethering or no need for client supervision, plus need the quality of MF then the Pentax rules. If the job involves people, animals or objects moving about at speed then the canons rule.
Never tried the Phase XF, all these cameras do me fine at the moment.
Best feature of the Pentax, that great flip out screen, my knees thank you Mr Pentax.

David,

 Your response was exactly the type of answer I was hoping for. Thank you for that information.

Edmund
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Gel

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Well....that's embarrassing.


I doubt it. It's a camera that is probably selling fast enough as is. Although the Zii...that could prove interesting.

Paul2660

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Owner of 645z,p30+ on Contax, plus canons. Hopefully the question from the OP was slightly serious but as the professionals on here know mostly unanswerable without putting the answers in context. If I'm doing a job when the client wants to hang about micro-managing on a big screen as I shoot then the p30 plus Contax rules. If I'm booked to go on a tricky location with little time for tethering or no need for client supervision, plus need the quality of MF then the Pentax rules. If the job involves people, animals or objects moving about at speed then the canons rule.
Never tried the Phase XF, all these cameras do me fine at the moment.
Best feature of the Pentax, that great flip out screen, my knees thank you Mr Pentax.

Great point about the flip out screen. As the body ages the low ground angles become less attractive. The waist level finder on the XF is nice but to me not as good as a modern flip screen. I am amazed the Nikon and Canon are also slow to figure this out with their high end MP bodies.

I had hoped Phase woukd bring out a flip screen design on the IQ3 bodies.  Should not be that hard to design. Since Phase only has the 50MP cmos back for now it might not be a major design point for them. For a CCD the flip out style screen would less useable for live view due to the inherent issues CCDS have with live view.

Paul

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eronald

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I had hoped Phase woukd bring out a flip screen design on the IQ3 bodies.  Should not be that hard to design.
Paul


Some of the original Kodak backs already had flip-up screens.

A Canon rep explained to me why their pro bodies do not have the flip-out screens which video guys love, while the consumer models do:

Rental houses hate flip screens, they are the first thing to break. They *demand* cameras without flipouts.

Phase has a big rental market ...so no flip screens on breakaway arms.

No flip-up turns a focus check on a tripod into a nightmare when shooting waist-high, especially, with middle aged eyes and the wonderful P-series screens - although of course waist-high is eye-level for a troll :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 12:27:18 pm by eronald »
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synn

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jsiva

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I doubt it. It's a camera that is probably selling fast enough as is. Although the Zii...that could prove interesting.

I wasn't knocking Pentax.  My comment was referencing this thread.
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Paul2660

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Some of the original Kodak backs already had flip-up screens.

A Canon rep explained to me why their pro bodies do not have the flip-out screens which video guys love, while the consumer models do:

Rental houses hate flip screens, they are the first thing to break. They *demand* cameras without flipouts.

Phase has a big rental market ...so no flip screens on breakaway arms.

No flip-up turns a focus check on a tripod into a nightmare when shooting waist-high, especially, with middle aged eyes and the wonderful P-series screens - although of course waist-high is eye-level for a troll :)


Edmund

Personally I can't believe that Canon or Nikon pro body design, is being driven by the "rental" market.  If so, then that is a sad state of affairs. 

I also can see how a true flip out screen, like the one on the Canon Rebel or Sony A99(wonderful design) might be a liability for a rental house, but to me that's their issue.  What would be the numbers?, i.e. sold to a single rental house or all the independent consumers?  I would tend to think the latter.  But the traditional flip out screen, like used by the P645z or Sony A7r, to be would be a vast improvement vast.  For as you point out unless you are the height of a troll and want to work down low, most pro bodies screen with no movement are taxing.  Especially when you are over 50. 

If Phase would just enable a flip out screen on the IQ back, that would be a huge advantage.  Now is the time to design, so say they allowed for a screen lock?  That would a nice feature. 

Oh well.

Paul
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eronald

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Personally I can't believe that Canon or Nikon pro body design, is being driven by the "rental" market.  If so, then that is a sad state of affairs.  


 I was told that Canon are facing falling buys of pro bodies by real pro photographers, who buy prosumer bodies.  One corollary would be an increasing leverage of affluent customers and rental houses with respect to the pro body division.

 Falling sales, the migration to video and economic ups and downs in much of the developed world are playing havoc with the product hierarchy and design parameters in the whole industry.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 05:09:48 pm by eronald »
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Gel

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It is true, I'd love a flip out screen so that means I need to get a crappy 70D.

Yet I spend 10k a year on pro bodies, none of which have that. Crazy loopy Canon.
BTW, the rental market does not dictate the design of a camera, it's not big enough.

This is a good opportunity to let off some steam on the subject. FFS camera manufacturers, before you guys go 'Super Awesome' over a new camera, how about you do something radical and actually run these ideas past a selection of normal working Joe's and when ready, give us the prototypes to bugger about with to really see what can be changed or improved. Not just a couple of Ambassadors but like 500 working pros. You'll sell more cameras if there's nothing to complain about with them.

It's almost as if someone took the common sense out of the camera manufacturers brains and let themselves run wild with their own OCD's. WTF was that thing with Hasselblad re-badging the Sony bodies. I mean do they think people are that stupid? Is that the issue with the camera industry? That they think we are? I'm sure it's something like that.

I understand bringing new products to the market is a difficult thing. But Canon deliberately cripples their bodies and holds back features. Nikon do not test their cameras properly. Hasselblad, hell I have no idea what Hasselblad is doing right now and Phase are living in another dimension and nobody can reach them. Pentax, they just seem to be a shell releasing products and not having any representation anywhere, no common voice or open plan of action despite having the best medium format option for most of the population.

It's frustration to see companies fall over their own arses like they have been for the last 6 years I've been operating as a photographer. Same frustrations amongst users and to the public's credit they are telling Canon, Nikon, Phase, Pentax Hassy, Sony etc what's up.

They're just not paying any attention.

Peter Devos

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And things will get more complicated now that Hasselblad comes with their new H6d-80mp with Cmos sensor..... interesting times......
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Paul2660

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And things will get more complicated now that Hasselblad comes with their new H6d-80mp with Cmos sensor..... interesting times......

Did I miss this?

Paul
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