Poll

As straight dSLRs - no tethering, central shutter, or C1/LR comparison.

XF 250C is better
- 11 (25.6%)
Pentax 645Z
- 28 (65.1%)
Substantially the same
- 4 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 42


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Author Topic: As straight MF SLRs which is better - Phase XF IQ2/3/50 or Pentax 645Z?  (Read 42784 times)

eronald

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Which camera is better *as a camera*? They have the same sensor, and we will take off the table that the XF back and viewfinder can be detached, and that C1 is very good and that the XF takes leaf shutters. We'll also take off the table the fact that the Pentax costs about 1/3 or 1/4 of the Phase/IQ250C combo.

Just compare the two as far as straight SLR shooting ergonomics, and ability, with their existing lens range.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 09:14:03 pm by eronald »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: As straight MF SLRs which is better - Phase XF 250c or Pentax 645Z?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2015, 09:18:13 pm »

Not going to lie, based on the criteria you posted, the Pentax would be the best in my opinion (and I voted that way as well).  Same sensor, same color fieldality, you can get essentially the same image (may have to process the files a little more to emulate the color of one to the other) lenses are nice, etc.  If you need an all around camera that you will be using to shoot a few different genres of work, especially if you work on the fly, the Pentax is it.  

If you need leaf shutters though and good support and always light you work and a better user experience with using the camera (sorry Edmund, I have held both cameras and like the XF better), then the P1 system would work better.  However, if you did all that and needed leaf shutters, you might as well go with a CCD back and get the better color field too.  
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eronald

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Re: As straight MF SLRs which is better - Phase XF 250c or Pentax 645Z?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2015, 09:30:02 pm »

Not going to lie, based on the criteria you posted, the Pentax would be the best in my opinion (and I voted that way as well).  Same sensor, same color fieldality, you can get essentially the same image (may have to process the files a little more to emulate the color of one to the other) lenses are nice, etc.  If you need an all around camera that you will be using to shoot a few different genres of work, especially if you work on the fly, the Pentax is it.  

If you need leaf shutters though and good support and always light you work and a better user experience with using the camera (sorry Edmund, I have held both cameras and like the XF better), then the P1 system would work better.  However, if you did all that and needed leaf shutters, you might as well go with a CCD back and get the better color field too.  

Joe,

 Thanks for looking at the topic - and giving the opinion of somebody who has already looked at both cameras, and works for neither company :)

Edmund
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FelixWu

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Is the CCD Skin tone difference noticeable? I am just contemplating which camera to buy with limited budget. If there's a noticeable difference I will get a used IQ1 or P45/65 back or even a Hassy. Otherwise I may go for 645Z or 5Ds.

Is H5D much better than H2 body in terms of focusing? Not talking about True Focus here.
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JoeKitchen

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Is the CCD Skin tone difference noticeable? I am just contemplating which camera to buy with limited budget. If there's a noticeable difference I will get a used IQ1 or P45/65 back or even a Hassy. Otherwise I may go for 645Z or 5Ds.

Is H5D much better than H2 body in terms of focusing? Not talking about True Focus here.

All around, I feel CCDs just give you better color, regardless if it is skin tones or building materials (I shoot architecture and interiors).  I just always get a sense of smoothness when working on a file from a CCD camera as opposed to a CMOS.  Even at 200 or 400 ISO.  I know some will disagree, but I just never like the color a CMOS sensor gives (although I am curious about the new Leica S2 since Leica advertises as a 16-bit CMOS, a first of its kind). 

However, if you are working at 200 or 400, you better nail it with the exposure and lighting, because you have little meat in the file for anything else beside noise reduction.  (Pretty much at that ISO pick adequate noise reduction or pushing/pulling the file, not both.) 

To me color is paramont, everything else is secondary.  But I work slow, plan and light all of my shots so I need as little work in post as possible, and I have the clients who allow me to do it. 

For others, better ISO performance may be a priority, or something else a CMOS does better.  In that case, the Pentax would be best (unless you need to use a tech camera or leaf shutters, like me too). 

If you really need leaf shutters though, then I would assume you are the type of shooter who plans and lights your images.  If that is the case, to me it just does not make sense to spend the money on a P1 system and not buy a CCD base back.  (With a tech camera, I will concede that for some a CMOS based back would be better.) 
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alatreille

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I'm lucky enough to have a Credo 60 and the 645Z, though I've never used the Credo on a DF or XF body.  I did look at them, but then the Z came into my life. 

My vote given the criteria is the Pentax.
Having shot Pentaxes for 20 years the 645Z was like picking my K5iis (though an overweight or gym buffed one).  Pentax has kept usability a slowly evolution through all their bodies.  They aren't substantially different from one body to the other.
I didn't have to think about anything with it.

I've shot similar compositions with the tech cam and the 645z and can share if people would like.

Felix, on a limited budget...I'd go the 645z without a doubt. 
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eronald

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Looks like Phase owners are less vocal about the virtues of their camera :)

Edmund
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Joe Towner

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I've shot both, love the IQ system, but the Z in hand really fun to work with.
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jco611

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645z no question...
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JoeKitchen

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Looks like Phase owners are less vocal about the virtues of their camera :)

Edmund

I can be vocal about my Phase One back, however your criteria for comparison sucks all the marrow out of it. 
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sgilbert

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Maybe they're not in the mood for trolling right now.

Be patient, grasshopper.
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eronald

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I can be vocal about my Phase One back, however your criteria for comparison sucks all the marrow out of it.  

To be fair, I have removed price as a criterium as well :)I was thinking of something like travel/documentary camera, a bit like Philip Bloom uses his MF camera, or wedding on-location use, like Doug showed us how he uses his personal Phase gear. Philip Bloom is well known as a videographer, and I guess travels with some Sony video gear that also provides him with telephoto ability if he needs it.

If one chases down the Philip Bloom link above, one sees some amazing crops, which show why it may be worth schlepping an MF camera even in a daypack as a snapshot camera. A lot of non-professionals do read these forums, and it may be useful for them to know what works well for what job. I would be the first to recommend a C1/Phase setup to anyone who wants to do intensive studio or repro work, although I am sure such a person wouldn't need to ask me :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 09:36:29 pm by eronald »
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DucatiTerminator

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...we will take off the table that the XF back and viewfinder can be detached, and that C1 is very good and that the XF takes leaf shutters. We'll also take off the table the fact that the Pentax costs about 1/3 or 1/4 of the Phase/IQ250C combo.

Just compare the two as far as straight SLR shooting ergonomics, and ability, with their existing lens range.

Edmund
I've yet to shoot with either, but the XF does feel better in my hands. That said, I'm curious as to what you are trying to understand in posing the question the way you do. You take the interchangeable viewfinder off the table, yet it extends the flexibility of the XF's ERGONOMICS. You take C1 off the table, yet it is a part of the Phase's ABILITY, especially for tethered shooters. And you take the leaf shutters off the table, yet is it a part of Phase's EXISTING LENS RANGE and paramount for those who require them. Nevermind the fact that the Pentax does NOT have a full frame 60 or 80 MP capability even if it were 10x the price.

Looks like Phase owners are less vocal about the virtues of their camera :)

Edmund

Vraiment???  ::) With the new Phase cameras being available for a little over a month, how many XF owners are there here realistically?  ???



Call me the naïve newbie lurker, but sometimes you seem to have an axe to grind with Phase One. Did you have a bad experience with them?

I like what the Z offers so far. In fact, it's on the table for me right now. Interestingly, the things you take off the table are among the top things that have me interested in the Phase system. Besides, chacun son goût, non?

Alvin
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EricWHiss

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Not an option on your poll, but I've tried both XF and 645Z and I'll be keeping my Hy6 Mod2
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synn

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Which camera is better *as a camera*? They have the same sensor, and we will take off the table that the XF back and viewfinder can be detached, and that C1 is very good and that the XF takes leaf shutters. We'll also take off the table the fact that the Pentax costs about 1/3 or 1/4 of the Phase/IQ250C combo.

Just compare the two as far as straight SLR shooting ergonomics, and ability, with their existing lens range.

Edmund

Let's compare a Ferrari and a Lada, ignore the Ferrari's engine, suspension and electronics and just to be fair, ignore that the Lada is cheap as shit.
No offense to the Pentax owners here, it"s a great camera, but the caveats attached to this comparison are asinine.
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eronald

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How many Phase owners have done more than hold an XF?

How many Pentax owners have done more than hold an XF?

Those are interesting and relevant question(s) which merit a wider reformulation. 

How many buyers have actually been able to locate dealers for each  MF brand (Phase, Hassy, Leica, Pentax) and seriously try out each?

How many people on this forum have already (pre)ordered a 5DSR or an A7II, a Pentax or even a Phase XF without a real tryout of the final commercial version?

I think that with the haphazard buying patterns evidenced on this forum my poll makes as much sense as most presidential elections - for which as we all know there is no real try before you buy.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 03:02:43 pm by eronald »
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eronald

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Not an option on your poll, but I've tried both XF and 645Z and I'll be keeping my Hy6 Mod2


I guess I forgot the option entitled "A plague on both their houses" :)

Edmund
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mjrichardson

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Eronald, you've outdone yourself on this thread, truly brilliant.

Personally I'd like to know which is best between the iphone and the Z, lets ignore resolution, interchangeable lenses, ISO, tilt screen and concentrate on which can make a phone call and fit in your pocket.

Mat
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sgilbert

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According to the Urban Dictionary, a troll is "one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."  

Does anyone think that the OP is interested in which camera is better?  
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 07:30:32 pm by sgilbert »
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Ken R

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According to the Urban Dictionary, a troll is "
  • ne who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument." 


Does anyone think that the OP is interested in which camera is better? 

Exactly:

Here is the thread starter, just pick one  ;D:

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