Sinar multi-shot digital backs or Betterlight?

[Master Technika]

I've been wanting to get a good digital back or Betterlight scanning back for a while and the prices are finally coming into the range of "affordable" for me.  My question is whether a multi-shot back or focus stacking would be a viable option in regards to making still life work with good depth of field and then large prints (32x40" and up) comparable to those made from 4x5 or even 8x10 film.  I do lots of 4x5 and 8x10 black and white work and have great system down, but really would like to be doing more color work as well and would like to do that digitally.  I use continuous lighting. 

Is focus stacking with patterns, like the woven threads of fabric, difficult? 

The camera option I've been looking at are Betterlight scanning backs and the Sinar multi-shot backs.  Anyone with experience with these systems please let me know what you might be a good solution. 

[DanielStone]

If you're photographing purely STATIC scenes/objects/subjects, then either option can work very well. However, if you are photographing people, animals, or anything that can't sit/remain absolutely still for 5 seconds up to multiple minutes at a time, I'd probably start looking at single shot solutions. Multi shot is great, and allows for superb color accuracy(as does the Betterlight backs), but the last few generations of 60/80mp digital backs(heck, even a used P45+ is a tremendous back, and are now somewhat "affordable" on the used market).

I too am a large format user, primarily with color film. I drum scan my selected frames, and usually start with files ranging from 400mb up to 1.5Gb, depending on format and scan dpi. If you are only shooting a small number of frames(compared to your b/w film work), why not just use color sheet film? The cost of film and scans(assuming you outsource for these) will allow you to spread the cost of such(vs swallowing a big chunk of change on a digital system) over a longer period of time.

If you're shooting high rates of reproduction and need the turnaround time only digital can deliver, then disregard my above comments

I'm using both 4x5 and 5x7, formerly 8x10.

cheers,
Dan

[Theodoros]

Sinar's 54H will destroy any modern 80mpx back on the market... Its color accuracy can be very simply calibrated and is absolutely superb, it can be found in great condition in prices that are a steal... Sinar's e-Xact is supposed to be the best back in the market, I haven't tried one, but judging from my 54H's performance it should be... I used to have Imacon 528c before the 54H, sensor and resolution was the same as 54H, but 54H has a much more accurate calibration process... I now use a 54H and a Hassy CF-39ms, any MS back will destroy any single shot back for still work, but Sinar is a (very clear) step ahead when it comes to color accuracy. I hope this helps.

[Ken R]

Sinar's 54H will destroy any modern 80mpx back on the market... Its color accuracy can be very simply calibrated and is absolutely superb, it can be found in great condition in prices that are a steal... Sinar's e-Xact is supposed to be the best back in the market, I haven't tried one, but judging from my 54H's performance it should be... I used to have Imacon 528c before the 54H, sensor and resolution was the same as 54H, but 54H has a much more accurate calibration process... I now use a 54H and a Hassy CF-39ms, any MS back will destroy any single shot back for still work, but Sinar is a (very clear) step ahead when it comes to color accuracy. I hope this helps.

Multi-shot capture, although limiting (to non moving objects and continuous or consistent light), produces a much higher quality file per pixel.

Nowadays multi-shot capture can be had for under $1000 with the Pentax K-3 II. Ricoh/Pentax calls it "Pixel Shift" mode. Sample images are available online and they are just stunning. Virtually eliminates aliasing and jaggies. 

[Master Technika]

Dan, Theodoros, and Ken thank you for your input.  I am now fully intrigued by the prospect of a multi-shot back.  Even that Pentax dslr looks pretty nice.  Do all the Sinar backs have the multi-shot capabilities?  Also does anyone know of a place in the US that still sells the Sinar backs?  Thanks.

[AlterEgo]

the prices are finally coming into the range of "affordable" for me. 

www.photoacute.com does it all, w/ your existing gear

[landscapephoto]

www.photoacute.com does it all, w/ your existing gear

Or you could use this technique with photoshop: http://petapixel.com/2015/02/21/a-practical-guide-to-creating-superresolution-photos-with-photoshop/

[Theodoros]

Dan, Theodorus, and Ken thank you for your input.  I am now fully intrigued by the prospect of a multi-shot back.  Even that Pentax dslr looks pretty nice.  Do all the Sinar backs have the multi-shot capabilities?  Also does anyone know of a place in the US that still sells the Sinar backs?  Thanks.

Please note that my name is Theodoros... All current production Sinarbacks have MS capability and most of the older ones of the tethered kind, Sinar used to do the E-motion series of backs that were self contained and didn't have MS capability (my first MFDB was an E-motion 22). The most popular out of their older backs is the 54H, but be careful! There are two versions of it, one with FW tethering to the computer and an older one that used optical tethering, I believe that the one with optical tethering only works with older G4 or G5 Macs... so I strongly suggest to look for the FW version. I believe one can easily find a 54H (FW) for 2K (USD/Euros) or near that, while the Pentax will be half price that, but mind you that the 54H is a real workhorse that can offer world class quality that can be challenged only by Sinar's current top back (the eXact) or so many pros say... The thing is that the Pentax is a DSLR, while with the Sinarback, one must choose an MF (or view camera) platform to use it with and it only is of tethered operation, so it all depends on the kind of work you want to get involved with... If it is serious pro work that needs the best possible accuracy and resolution, go for the Sinarback. Ebay is a good place to find a 54H, there are thousands of them all over the world, so it is not a difficult back to find. Although I'm not in the States, I know that a Sinar dealer in New Heaven Connecticut, Michael Ulsaker (mulsaker is the name he uses on ebay) is a specialist on MS equipment and has a strong reputation of support to his customers, he does sell S/H equipment he part exchanges from his customers.

[Theodoros]

Or you could use this technique with photoshop: http://petapixel.com/2015/02/21/a-practical-guide-to-creating-superresolution-photos-with-photoshop/

Both http://www.photoacute.com/ and the method you suggest are methods of increasing (to an extend) resolution and removing (to an extend) artifacts, they have nothing to do with "true color" per pixel capturing, with no Bayer pattern interpolation involved or total absence of artifacts in the original raw file... hence they are no where near multishot capturing.

[AlterEgo]

Both http://www.photoacute.com/ and the method you suggest are methods of increasing (to an extend) resolution and removing (to an extend) artifacts, they have nothing to do with "true color" per pixel capturing, with no Bayer pattern interpolation involved or total absence of artifacts in the original raw file... hence they are no where near multishot capturing.

yes, they don't do "true color", so what ? ... photoacute does supperresolution, NR & HDR and does focus stacking with any gear (everything in one bottle so to say)... the OP asked = "viable option in regards to making still life work with good depth of field and then large prints"... that photoacute does  , even for free (I think you still can get a free license by submitting some new camera/lens profile)... can't beat free, can you ?

[Theodoros]

yes, they don't do "true color", so what ? ...can't beat free, can you ?

So what? ...it's like comparing apples with oranges! ...."free" one can't beat if you compare apples with apples, or oranges with oranges...

[AlterEgo]

So what?

so it can be free and the OP, if you didn't notice, has at least some budget issues on his mind - didn't he write "the prices are finally coming into the range of "affordable" for me.", did he ? so here are the free options for him to consider along with the those that still cost thousands dollars... but yes, w/o "true color" 

[landscapephoto]

yes, they don't do "true color", so what ?

Actually, the "superresolution" techniques increase color resolution just as much as they increase luminance resolution. In that sense, they can do just as much "true color" as the pixel-shifting backs.

[AlterEgo]

Actually, the "superresolution" techniques increase color resolution just as much as they increase luminance resolution. In that sense, they can do just as much "true color" as the pixel-shifting backs.

yes, but that is not "true color" in the sense that Theodoros wants... his "true color" means the sampling in exactly the same sensel locations, with superresolution it is not exactly so... while it is indeed increasing all kind of resolutions.

[Theodoros]

I believe the O/P has already listed a WTB listing for a Sinarback in the "Sales" section of the forum... He obviously must have tried the "super-resolution" solution and found it not up to his requirements... Others may do... so what? 

[AlterEgo]

I believe the O/P has already listed a WTB listing for a Sinarback in the "Sales" section of the forum...

he then can get even further in resolution, S/N & DR, focus stacking by applying those solutions on top of his multishot files

[Master Technika]

Lots and of good information.  Thanks to everyone who posted for taking the time. 

[Master Technika]

Ok so I have the chance to possibly purchase a Sinar kit with a 75h back.  I was under the impression that a multi-shot back would give me a much larger file when used in the the 4 or ultimately 16 shot modes that that would yield a much greater sized file and thus a mere 33mp back becomes the equivalent of an 80mp or above camera. I am looking to make high quality large prints the equivalent I could get from 4x5 and even 8x10 film (32x40", 50x60").  Is a 75h Sinar back the answer?  Thanks for all the answers thus far.

[Theodoros]

Ok so I have the chance to possibly purchase a Sinar kit with a 75h back.  I was under the impression that a multi-shot back would give me a much larger file when used in the the 4 or ultimately 16 shot modes that that would yield a much greater sized file and thus a mere 33mp back becomes the equivalent of an 80mp or above camera. I am looking to make high quality large prints the equivalent I could get from 4x5 and even 8x10 film (32x40", 50x60").  Is a 75h Sinar back the answer?  Thanks for all the answers thus far.

The 75H is a 4-shot back only, this means that it takes 4-shots as to coincide a "blue" pixel, a "red" pixel and two "green" pixels in every pixel position (it moves the sensor at exactly 1 pixel increments) this gives a true color file of 33mp that is of amazing quality. There will be complete absence of artifacts and no color interpolation involved, the 16x backs do the same, but at half pixel step, this allows them to record the extra information between the pixels and thus quadrable the resolution. There will be no difference between the files, other than resolution as such, but the difference in (visible) resolution than another 33mp file shot in single shot will be easy to detect... The difference will differ from "clear" to "huge" depending on the complexity of the subject shot.

In most cases, you'll be easily able to print larger with the 75H shot at 4x, than any 80mp back shot in single shot, I would say that prints down to 72ppi are completely safe and of superb detail if shot at 4x, hence my answer would be positive on the matter... Certainly 60" for the smaller side of the print would be a very easy task for the 75H... My Hasselblad CF-39MS back is the same, it can only do up to 4x and it surely is able to print down to 72ppi with amazing quality. A very close friend is using a Sinar 75H back on Sinar P3 camera, the quality is stunning!

I would say that all multishot backs offer fantastic image quality, the advantage of Sinarbacks with respect to others, is on the calibration method they offer which leads in extremely accurate color and much less work involved to get things right!

[DanielStone]

OP,
What is it that you are photographing? A slight breeze will dissipate any "super resolution" you might desire to attain since your subject matter will not be absolutely static.
Just wondering