Anyone mixing their own B&W inks?

[Some Guy]

Curious if anyone mixes their own Epson B&W inksets?  I believe Paul Roark does using MIS.

I was wondering if using the long lasting Epson Claria DYE Photo Black ink along with the "i2i Absolute Clear Ink" ( http://www.ink2image.com/screenseparation.html ) would create a sort of K7 inkset, just using dye instead of the K7 pigment which might work better for metallic papers, and maybe less gloss differential too that seems to affect my K7 printer on some papers.  Even the K7 Gloss Optimizer over the K7 PK and MK Piezography leads to some differential still showing, or the GO is soaked up by the carbon in the PK/MK pigment base showing the differential in the strong blacks at acute angles.

E.g. Buy the Epson Claira DYE PK ink in the 700ml cart, and then dilute it down to sundry shades of the K7 with the clear ink above?

Tia.

SG

[Paul Roark]

As you noted, I mix my own B&W inks.  For an example of where I'm at with carbon pigments, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3880-Carbon-Variable-Tone-2015.pdf .  Note that I use my generic dilution base with the MIS "Eboni" MK.  I actually buy this from STS Inks by the liter, but MIS is the best source for smaller volumes.

For dyes, I use the Epson-Noritsu carts for inputs.  My Epson 4000 is set up as a "standard" K2 now but with these dyes.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-Noritsu-2K.pdf .  The reason for the "color" setup for B&W is due to the dye's relatively weak K.  I think the PDF goes into that.  I'll have some fade test results on this soon.  But, it's in no way in the same category as the carbon pigment prints I'm making, but then neither are some of the commercial B&W inksets.

I basically use dyes for glossy and carbon for matte B&W.  The lack of the usually pigment artifacts on glossy paper makes a major difference on some papers, including specifically the metallic papers.

While the lack of artifacts may, by itself, justify the dye approach, note that I have another agenda.  I want to clearly separate my markets -- top fine art carbon pigments on cotton, matte paper v. glossy dyes. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/

[Some Guy]

Thanks Paul.

I've read through a lot of the stuff in your post and ordered some Noritsu/Claria ink this AM along with some i2i Clear ink.  We'll see how this disaster goes with the metallic off Red River in a K7 configuration (7 black ink shades).  I didn't find if the MIS clear (amber?) ink was a dye compatible clear ink, but i2i (Lyson) said theirs was compatible with Claria dye.

Epson wasn't really forthcoming in the Claria ink dept. so I'll guess the Noritsu 102 Black cart (500ml of Claria black or PK ink?) will suffice to fill a few 3880 carts to play with.  How and if I get the yellow tint out of the K7 Cone Piezo Selenium pigment ink will be the final test.  The dilution might be an issue too, although I figure if I cut it and paint it onto a Red River metallic along with the K7 Selenium inks I may get close in figuring out a system.

SG

[Paul Roark]

[quote author=Some Guy link=...

I've read through a lot of the stuff in your post and ordered some Noritsu/Claria ink...  I didn't find if the MIS clear (amber?) ink was a dye compatible clear ink, but i2i (Lyson) said theirs was compatible with Claria dye.[/quote]

The MIS amber is no dye compatible as far as I know.  MIS sells the clear dye base I formulated at
http://www.inksupply.com/product-details/pn/PR-CLEARBASE-PT.html?printerID=0

The URLs and product descriptions you need to try this are in footnotes on page 1 of
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-Noritsu-2K.pdf

Good luck with the dyes.  B&W dyes on metallic are quite amazing (but carbon pigments on a cotton substrate are where you want to be for top fine art that's going to last).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Some Guy]

Paul, the cart showed up for the Noritsu D701 and it is big.  Came in two large FedEx boxes.

With the 60ml syringe, I extracted maybe 550ml total using just the tip of the syringe through the cart's valve.  I put 70ml into the 3880 PK cart and still filled a 500ml Data bottle up to about 480ml which I'll use for the cutting of the other 6 tanks with the i2i Clear ink when it shows on Friday.  I may pick up a #43 Epson LC and LM for the toning locally.

Fwiw, it seems the cutting of the other shades takes very little ink - like counting drops of black, but I was using 3rd party dye into water so really not telling yet.

I noticed immediately this Noritsu/Epson ink is a very black staining ink!  Normally I can scrub off most all other inks with a Lava Bar (pumice) of soap.  Not this stuff!  Didn't see "Claria" anywhere on the initial reading, but does have Epson wording on it.

I'll compare it to the other PK Dye ink (3rd part) and see how they compare on the same sheet of paper with the i1 PhotoPro 2.  My ColorMunki Photo gave up the ghost after 3-4 years and refuses to read or acknowledge the wheel has rotated to anywhere but calibrate. So away it goes to X-rite and have to drag out the i1 PhotoPro 2 bag instead.

SG

[Paul Roark]

Yes, those Epson dyes  really stain much more than pigments.

FWIW, I posted my latest fade test at
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/2nd-8wk-Fade-test-7-26-2015.jpg .

Note that there is a test of a Claria Black Only on Epson Premium Photo Paper  Glossy included.  You can use that to see the relative performance of the Noritsu inks  on Red River metallic.  I made some mention of the comparisons on the B&W Digital Print forum at
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/conversations/messages/108524 ,
but I have not had a chance to study the results.  Note that my Epson 4000 "NK2" setup is a typical K2 color setup, with the dilute LK (Noritsu K 30%, generic dye  base 70%) carrying 1/3 of  the density.  The supposedly stronger color dyes carry 70% of the density.  The "sprayed" sample used Lascaux, not the heavier Print Shield. This is to keep the unique metallic look.  The level of protection is less, however.

(The colors of the scan are not that accurate, but  the relative changes are probably reliable.  I'll have spectro reads later.)

(From  my perspective, the main result of the fade test is that my Canon Lucia blue/cyan cool toner that was used to tone the Eboni carbon print at the lower  right corner of the scan held up fine.  We can match or  beat a silver print with this.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Some Guy]

Paul,

How did you determine your mixes for the densities of the black shades?

I've been swabbing and brushing the inks onto the paper, but that allows for build-up and is too variable.  I also tried a couple of microscope slides and a drop, however sqeezing them down changes that too when the head of the i1 PhotoPro 2 hits it.

I also tried two thin strips of Scotch tape on one slide to allow for a fixed space between them for the drop between the slides which might work.

I think someone makes an airbrush where you can put a few drops onto it and spray it, but then the density build-up might come back into play.

I've tried looking for some sort of spectroscopy slide to do this but I haven't found anything.  Must be something out there somewhere?

I bought a LM and LC in the #78 carts to color the blacks once I figure out where the 7 mixed shades of black get cut down to.  The Epson 78 has about 7.5 ml per cart so it costs about $2.25 per ml for Claria ink out of those.  The large Noritsu 102 cartridge amounts to about $0.33 per ml of Claria.  Go figger!  What makes it more interesting is it takes mere "drops" of the Claria black to shade down in the clear to that of the K7 Shade 7.  Stuff is insanely priced.

SG