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Author Topic: Which printers have gloss optimation or very little bronzing/gloss diff. ?  (Read 5131 times)

Nora_nor

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I know of the hp z3100 and z3200
to be able to use inexpensive luster or pearl paper printing black and white
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Ken Doo

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K7 B&W Piezography printers (converted) have a gloss optimizer, which is normally used in the "second pass" printing for K7 B&W MPS gloss prints.  Very nice.

You can also use this "second pass" gloss optimizer on color prints (not matte papers). I use the gloss optimizer function on my K& B&W Piezography 9890 at times for color images printed on my 9900---I've had a few fine art printing clients ask for that option as well.  It's a nice different look for prints.  www.carmelfineartprinting.com

ken

Bob Rockefeller

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The Canon PRO-1 has a gloss optimizer "ink" cartridge.
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Bob Rockefeller
Midway, GA   www.bobrockefeller.com

Nora_nor

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Interesting
I did not know about this gloss optimizer you put on afterwards, but I have seen it in books and some other printed things
I thought it might be screen printed, or printed with a different method, HP Indigo digital offset press which has some extra colours including white and gloss
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Roscolo

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Just change all the paper whites in your image (255, 255, 255) to a very, very light gray (250, 250, 250). No gloss optimizer needed because there is no area of the print free from ink. I have a z3100 with gloss optimizer. Prints on my Canon ipf8300 still look better when using the technique I describe.
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MHMG

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Just change all the paper whites in your image (255, 255, 255) to a very, very light gray (250, 250, 250). No gloss optimizer needed because there is no area of the print free from ink...

The "Gloss" or "Chroma" optimizer is still very useful even if you do the RGB 255 to 250 trick because of bronzing issues, particularly in highlight colors, but also more pronounced in specific colors, e.g.,  the blue ink in the Canon Lucia EX ink set.

Some people don't consider gloss differential or bronzing to be much of a problem, and it isn't if you are looking directly on the normal plane of the image as it might appear in a controlled viewing situation such as a framed print in a gallery, but for applications like books or loose prints where the image is presented to the viewer at varying angles, all the major OEM pigmented ink sets still have lingering amounts of gloss differential and bronzing on glossy/luster type media that is best eliminated or greatly reduced with a gloss optimizer or a post coating (e.g., Premier Print shield or Lascaux fixative spray).

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

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Ferp

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Some of the Epson desktop printers also have a GO cartridge.  The R2000 does.  The R1900 also did.  These are printers without LM, LC, LK or LLK inks and have Red and Orange and both Blacks and GO instead.  I gather that they're aimed at images with a lot of saturation rather than subtlety, and a high gloss is part of that look.

Why does Piezography glossy need a glossy overcoat?  I've never thought that ABW prints did, although I guess it wouldn't do them any harm.
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Jager

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Just change all the paper whites in your image (255, 255, 255) to a very, very light gray (250, 250, 250). No gloss optimizer needed because there is no area of the print free from ink. I have a z3100 with gloss optimizer. Prints on my Canon ipf8300 still look better when using the technique I describe.

Not sure this is correct.  The OEM dithering algorithms cause ink droplets to be spread further and further apart in the highlights.  There are some printing systems which utilize equally-spaced ink droplets (Piezography, for one).  But AFIK all the OEM systems use dithering.

Jager

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Some of the Epson desktop printers also have a GO cartridge.  The R2000 does.  The R1900 also did.  These are printers without LM, LC, LK or LLK inks and have Red and Orange and both Blacks and GO instead.  I gather that they're aimed at images with a lot of saturation rather than subtlety, and a high gloss is part of that look.

Why does Piezography glossy need a glossy overcoat?  I've never thought that ABW prints did, although I guess it wouldn't do them any harm.

I think all the Epson models that included GO were dye-based inks?  Not sure if there is any reason they wouldn't work with pigment inks.  Perhaps Epson agrees that it's simply not a problem that needs solving.

Regardless, Jon Cone included GO with Piezography glossy precisely to eliminate bronzing and gloss differential.  His prints are much more like silver gelatin prints in that regard.

Ferp

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I think all the Epson models that included GO were dye-based inks?  Not sure if there is any reason they wouldn't work with pigment inks.  Perhaps Epson agrees that it's simply not a problem that needs solving.

Regardless, Jon Cone included GO with Piezography glossy precisely to eliminate bronzing and gloss differential.  His prints are much more like silver gelatin prints in that regard.

That's not correct, at least as far as the 13" printers.  The R1900 and R2000 were definitely pigment printers and they were the ones that I've seen with GO.  The dye printers were the 14x0 series and they were only 6 channel and so no GO.  Can't speak for anything older or smaller.

The glossy Piezography prints that I've been shown certainly needed it.  Without GO the bronzing was quite distracting, and it didn't need much of an angle to see it clearly.  I've not seen anything like it with ABW.  Clearly his pigments are quite different to Epson's.  This is a longer and slightly clearer version of my "why" question.
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Ken Doo

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....
The glossy Piezography prints that I've been shown certainly needed it.  Without GO the bronzing was quite distracting, and it didn't need much of an angle to see it clearly.  I've not seen anything like it with ABW.  Clearly his pigments are quite different to Epson's.  ....

B&W Piezography MPS gloss print curves were developed (as in "must use") the gloss optimizer in a second pass after the initial printing of the B&W image. They work together to complete the image.  The B&W K7 (gloss) image is not meant to be "finished" by itself. The two curves were actually developed to work together.  This independent "gloss curve" is what allows application of the GO on prints made with other stock printers using a converted piezography MPS printer.

ken

Jager

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That's not correct, at least as far as the 13" printers.  The R1900 and R2000 were definitely pigment printers and they were the ones that I've seen with GO.  The dye printers were the 14x0 series and they were only 6 channel and so no GO.  Can't speak for anything older or smaller.

The glossy Piezography prints that I've been shown certainly needed it.  Without GO the bronzing was quite distracting, and it didn't need much of an angle to see it clearly.  I've not seen anything like it with ABW.  Clearly his pigments are quite different to Epson's.  This is a longer and slightly clearer version of my "why" question.

Thanks for clarifying the Epson models which included GO.  It does beg the question of why they would include GO for some (pigment) models but not others.

And, as Ken clearly describes, the Piezography glossy GO fully integrates with the K7 (glossy) inks.  It's not intended as an option.

Roscolo

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Not sure this is correct.  The OEM dithering algorithms cause ink droplets to be spread further and further apart in the highlights.  There are some printing systems which utilize equally-spaced ink droplets (Piezography, for one).  But AFIK all the OEM systems use dithering.

I can vouch that it is correct and works on Canon ipf8300, because I do it regularly. Not that there is much gloss differential there to begin with, but the slight amount that arises from paper white in an image is eliminated by changing the paper white (255,255,255) areas of the image to a very light gray (250,250,250). This has no negative effect on the image whatsoever. Obviously the technique may not work on every printer so one just needs to try it. Works great for me on the ipf8300. As has been documented here numerous times the same technique also works great on the HP z3100 to save gloss enhancer, as that printer will coat the entire width of a roll of paper with gloss enhancer even if your print only occupies a small percentage of the width of a roll. You can choose the "econo-mode" and only the image area will be sprayed, but then the areas of your print that are paper white (255,255,255) will also remain uncoated and you will have gloss differential. If you want to use econo-mode but also have the paper whites in your print sprayed with gloss enhancer, you have to use the technique on the z3100.
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enduser

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Do the gloss optimisers become yellowish over time?
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Some Guy

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One thing I've noticed with the K7 piezo inks and their GO is that the GO may address a bronzing effect, but the darkest blacks (PK or MK) seem to be carbon-based and it may not cover as well there - or it gets soaked up? - and the gloss differential still shows up at oblique angles.  I've made 3 passes of GO and it still shows the gloss differential so something in the GO and the PK or MK doesn't play well together.

It's been bad enough on some papers that I've been tempted to not use their K7 PK and MK ink and switch to a Claria dye or maybe a pigment ink and see if it improves the differential.

SG
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Ernst Dinkla

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Do the gloss optimisers become yellowish over time?

Acrylic protection sprays are quite stable in time. Gloss enhancer inks will have PVA as the medium and polyvinylacetates are in a similar category. One should expect ink producers to be careful as it is also used in the inks themselves, consider their longevity as a starting point. Whether PVAs used as sizing in the papers are in the same category is harder to tell. Aardenburg-Imaging.com has test of papers with and without protection spray, gloss enhancer (harder to find), checking the paper whites only may tell something about their behaviour. For the ink patches, protection sprays give positive results.

There are conservation reports on PVA longevity, it is used in many conservation jobs; glues, varnishes etc. Picking up dust of PVA layers is an issue but bare inkjet coating layers have an issue on this too.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Ferp

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Thanks for clarifying the Epson models which included GO.  It does beg the question of why they would include GO for some (pigment) models but not others.

Well, those printers use an inkset that is termed "hi gloss".  So I guess it aims at a certain kind of bold look, and gloss is part of it.  Those printers aren't really aimed at subtlety, that's what the K3 printers with their light inks are for

B&W Piezography MPS gloss print curves were developed (as in "must use") the gloss optimizer in a second pass after the initial printing of the B&W image. They work together to complete the image.  The B&W K7 (gloss) image is not meant to be "finished" by itself. The two curves were actually developed to work together. 

My recollection is that the piezography inks were initially matte only.  Then at some stage they started being sold as also suitable for gloss, although it's the same inks for matte and gloss, except perhaps for the darkest ink.  I know that piezography gloss is meant to have the gloss overcoat, but from what I've seen of the before and after, it's as if the overcoat is covering up the difficulties that the inks have with gloss.  And from what I've also seen, the cover up is sometimes less that perfect.  My initial question was why piezography on gloss needs this overcoat and Epson inks don't seem to, or at least not to anything like the same extent.
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Jager

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My recollection is that the piezography inks were initially matte only.  Then at some stage they started being sold as also suitable for gloss, although it's the same inks for matte and gloss, except perhaps for the darkest ink.  I know that piezography gloss is meant to have the gloss overcoat, but from what I've seen of the before and after, it's as if the overcoat is covering up the difficulties that the inks have with gloss.  And from what I've also seen, the cover up is sometimes less that perfect.  My initial question was why piezography on gloss needs this overcoat and Epson inks don't seem to, or at least not to anything like the same extent.

Correct, the original Piezography was matte only.

However, it wasn't that "at some stage they started being sold as also suitable for glossy," with the GO just thrown in to cover up the problems.  The K7 glossy, like Epson's OEM inks, uses a different 'photo black' ink from 'matte black.'  And just like the OEM inks, you have to switch from one to the other, depending upon the media type you're using.  Jon Cone's original 'MPS' system - his term to describe the K7 inksets applicable to both glossy and matte - covered only two of his five inksets.  Later, he formulated versions for all five.  You can today buy versions of Piezography that are matte-only, glossy-only, or both.

As noted above, the GO used in Piezography is an essential, integrated, required part of the K7 glossy process.  Ink reflectivity, dMax, linearity - they are all significantly affected by the subsequent GO layer.  The Piezography curve was created fully expecting that second half of the equation to be in place.  It is not at all analogous to a gloss overcoat being applied to an already finished print.

I can't speak for all five of the Piezography inksets, but I've made hundreds of glossy prints with the Warm Neutral and Selenium inksets; and many more that are split-toned.  In a very few instances - perhaps 2-3% - a particular image/media combination has required a second application of GO.  But that is very rare.  Ultimately, all are perfectly devoid of bronzing or gloss differential. 

 
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