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Author Topic: Day to Day Raw conversion workflow  (Read 5636 times)

crspe

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Day to Day Raw conversion workflow
« on: February 26, 2006, 06:56:23 am »

There are many articles around about what a good digital workflow is, for example:
http://luminous-landscape.com/techniques/process.shtml
http://ronbigelow.com/articles/workflow_ba...kflow_basic.htm

However, what I am missing is how you all process your normal, day to day photos - the ones that you are not planning to print large or do anything special with. All the workflows that I have seen are great for when you want to make a big print or do something special with the photo, but that is a small percentage of the total - how do you process the normal pictures?

Let me explain what my current workflow is like, If I am off for a weekend somewhere and come home with 100 photos, I need to convert them all from RAW to JPG, and do some filtering / organising of them.  Here is how I do it:
1) Copy the RAWs into a single directory on my harddisk.
2) Scan through the pics quickly in irfanview (its quick and free) - average about 3 seconds per picture, delete the complete duds (out of focus/camera shake/unnecessary duplicates)
3) Batch rename in Irfanview (to avoid duplicate filenames)
4) Start up Canon EVU and run through all of the photos, averaging 5-10 seconds per picture ... about 50% I leave unchanged from in-camera settings, for the other half I mostly only change the exposure.
- Why do I use EVU? Its quick and simple - the settings are all in useful, normal ranges ... for such quick, normal picture processing, it is enough to choose between 5 settings of contrast. Exposure compensation is a single click away, moving to the next picture is also 1 click or keypress away - all important things if you want to be able to process a weekends worth of photos in less than half an hour.
5) Batch process the photos to jpg. (go and do something else while it runs)
6) move the RAWs to a separate directory for later backing up to DVD
7) If necessary, stitch the panoramas using autostitch - single click, all done.
8) run through the jpegs, filtering the photos down to a useful collection of the 30 best pics from the shoot. The others get moved to a subdirectory.

Does anyone else work in a similar way, or do you all spend 2,5,10 minutes per picture, processing each one in raw converter + noise reduction + photoshop + sharpener, saving each intermediate pic as 16 bit tiff, etc ...

Which programs do you use? Do you have any tips on how I could do this better? Programs you would recommend?
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boku

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Day to Day Raw conversion workflow
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2006, 08:46:38 am »

You make several fundamental points that I do not relate to. Please explain...

1) It sound like you process all your raw files. Is your yield really that high? On a good day, I work on 10%. On an average day, I process 5%. Less is more.

2) Your working file is a JPEG. That is a very lossy approach.

3) I also shoot 100 pictures on a weekend. I see no issue with spending 2 hours afterwards processing the "keepers". If I were shooting professional-level quantities, I might seek more automation, but I assure you it would involve industrial-strength workflow processes and tools to maintain quality.
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61Dynamic

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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2006, 01:18:03 pm »

Using Jpegs as your working files defeats most of the benefits of shooting raw.

Most of my images never leave raw status. I only convert to psd or tiff if I plan on editing them beyond what the converter can do or I need to print. In those cases, yes, I do noise reduction, capture sharpening etc, for each and every image. This process is can be sped up using Photoshop's droplets but I find I can get better results if I don't automate too much.

100 images is chump-change really. If no editing is needed I can proof and set raw converter settings to that number of "day-to-day" pictures within 10 minutes in ACR.
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crspe

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Day to Day Raw conversion workflow
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2006, 03:53:01 pm »

Quote
1) It sound like you process all your raw files. Is your yield really that high? On a good day, I work on 10%. On an average day, I process 5%. Less is more.
On a day where I go photographing alone for the photography, then indeed I aim for / achieve a 5-10% yield, however on a weekend of snowshoeing with friends, I will keep closer to 30% - sure, some are just snapshots, but they are still worth keeping.

However, you are right, I process all my raws and then filter the jpegs for the keepers - I do a quick pre-filtering on the RAWs, but mostly do it on the final jpegs - I find the choice hard to make based on the RAWs - do you process the raw file where the timing of the pic was just right or the one where the exposure was just right - That is why i process them first and then filter.  
What do you do with the other 90-95% of your photos? delete them or just store them somewhere as RAW but never fix exposure/WB/...?

On my harddrive, I keep only the jpegs. I do this both for the compatibility - I can easily share them with friends, and for the disk space saved - I have 18000 photos collected from the last 15 years (starting with scanned film). This occupies a manageable 23GB of disk space ... I also have them all on my notebook for easy backup and sharing. If these were RAWs, it would occupy over 100GB - thats no longer going to fit on my disk or my notebook.

Quote
2) Your working file is a JPEG. That is a very lossy approach.
Sure its lossy, but the loss is pretty small ... you tell me which of these is from jpg and which is raw->tiff->png:
http://www.geocities.com/crspe/Untitled-1.png   (290KB)
A fair comparison - 100% crops of a photo from Canon EVU, one saved as tiff, the other as jpg, quality 3 (of max 4). Both cropped in Photoshop without ever being  compressed (again). I dont see a difference and so I am not concerned by any theoretical loss. I anyway still have the raws, and so if I wasnt to make a big print of the picture at some stage, I will for sure start off with the RAW and go through a complete and careful digital workflow.

Quote
3) I also shoot 100 pictures on a weekend. I see no issue with spending 2 hours afterwards processing the "keepers". If I were shooting professional-level quantities, I might seek more automation, but I assure you it would involve industrial-strength workflow processes and tools to maintain quality.
What does your 2 hour workflow look like? I would also be willing to spend this if I felt it gave a significant advantage, but right now I am not sure how I would go about it.


Quote
100 images is chump-change really. If no editing is needed I can proof and set raw converter settings to that number of "day-to-day" pictures within 10 minutes in ACR.
does this 10 minutes include adjusting the raw settings for about half the pictures? That is 6 seconds per picture - on my pentium4, 3GHz, ACR takes almost 3 seconds just to open the next picture even if all I do is hold down alt and click on "Update"

How do you do it in 10 minutes? apply the same settings to groups of pictures? select which thumbnails to adjust first and then process them? I would love to learn how to use ACR faster ...
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Gordon Buck

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Day to Day Raw conversion workflow
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2006, 04:03:56 pm »

I can relate to the problem of processing hundreds of RAW files.  I always shoot RAW -- even for "snapshots".

First, I realized that, in actual fact, the vast majority of my RAW images are processed essentially identically.  So I made some PS Actions.  This led me down the slippery slope to automation.  Next, I rationalized that I could have, after all, been shooting in JPG mode for most of the shots in which case I'd have ended up with JPG images instead of RAW.   But I really like the flexibility and forgiveness of the RAW file and occassionally really need/want the highest quality image possible.  What to do?

Noting that ACR in CS2 has fully automatic white balance, exposure, contrast, etc.  I use those as defaults in my Action.  The Action then does the following:

apply PK Sharpener capture sharpen
local contrast enhancement
Neat Image noise removal
Shadow/highlight adjustment (very light)
apply PK Sharpener creative sharpen for medium edges
Velvia Vision for color saturation
Color saturation
Save the image

For those not accustomed to using Actions, individual steps can be skipped by unchecking the box next to the step.   This feature allows me to skip over the Neat Image processing if the ISO setting was suitably low.  It also allows selection of either Velvia Vision or the CS2 step for color saturation, etc.

I made several variations of this Action.  In one variation, I save the image as a psd format but most of the time I convert the image to 8 bit mode and save it as a high quality jpg - usually at CS2 setting of 10.  In fact, I append (HQ JPG) to the file name to remind me that the image has been auto processed except for final sharpening.

I sometimes make slide shows (using ProShow) of family events like birthday parties, etc.  Since there is no point in using all those pixels for a TV display, I made an Action to downsize the *HQ JPG* image and add a bit of final sharpening.  Those images are saved at a jpg setting of 6.

If I want 4x6 snapshots, I make those from the *HQ JPG* image after adding a bit of final sharpening.  This too is done with an Action.

Sometimes, while looking through the Actioned images, I'll realise that one or two (OK, maybe more than two!) need special attention and I'll rework those individually.  If only a slight touch up is needed, I'll do that from the *HQ JPG* image depending on the intended use of the image.  Sometimes I'll have to start over with the RAW image.

So my rationalization is that by using CS2 Actions with suitable plugins I can make a better JPG than would come from the camera while retaining the RAW file.

Yes, I know about shooting RAW + JPG; no, I've not compared those images to mine from the Actions.

All the above may seem to be a lot of trouble but once you learn how to compose an Action the above is fairly straightforward.  The Neat Image and PK Sharpener steps take a little while to process.  Also, my Action throws in a few "Purge" steps to clear up memory and speed up the processing.  Typically each file takes only a few minutes to process but several hundred images can take a few hours.  I usually start the Action and then go to bed.
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61Dynamic

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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2006, 04:55:55 pm »

Quote
does this 10 minutes include adjusting the raw settings for about half the pictures? That is 6 seconds per picture - on my pentium4, 3GHz, ACR takes almost 3 seconds just to open the next picture even if all I do is hold down alt and click on "Update"

How do you do it in 10 minutes? apply the same settings to groups of pictures? select which thumbnails to adjust first and then process them? I would love to learn how to use ACR faster ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Since casual shots do not need to be 100% precise, then I can apply the same adjustments to batches at a time (WB, Shadows & Contrast particularly). I don't mess with RGB numbers or tonal curves. I simply keep an eye on the histo and eyeball exposure. Shots of a WiBal takes care of WB quickly.  This gets them in the ballpark and makes the final stage of proofing easier.

If I am working on a select destined for print then I spend more time on it in the converter; 2-10min per image typically (even longer in Lightroom sometimes; so many fun sliders!).

(out of curiosity, I timed my computer loading images into ACR. 100 13MP images took 6 sec to load with my Mac: Dual 2.3GHz G5, 3.5GB ram)

I think a big part of your bottleneck is in the software you are using. ACR 3.x and Bridge are considerably quicker than ACR 2.4 in PS CS allowing adjustments to be made in batches in real-time.
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Tim Gray

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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2006, 05:44:45 pm »

Quote
Sure its lossy, but the loss is pretty small ... you tell me which of these is from jpg and which is raw->tiff->png:
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree 100%.  I think the "lossyness" of JPG (at least at the lowest compression levels) blown way out of proportion.  (same for the LAB/RGB conversion for that matter).

As long as you do the major curve/level adjustments in raw then there's nothing wrong with dealing with minor adjustments in 8 bit and saving in JPG (I use level 11).  Workflow on my maching is noticeably faster. After conversion my basic processing a accomplished 80% through an action.  I process about 10-15% and print about half of that.  Of the ones I print max size on my 4000 = 17x25 (about 1%) I'll go back to the original RAW and do a more painstaking workup.

I find that RSE has superb workflow.  Once I flag the ones I want to convert, I do levels and curves in RSE and it's background conversion is fast enough that by the time I've processed 30 or 40 raw files, there are only a couple left in the queue.
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Sheldon N

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Day to Day Raw conversion workflow
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2006, 06:44:31 pm »

I do virtually everthing with Capture One LE.

1) Download RAW files to hard drive via Lexar Firewire card reader.
2) Open Capture One and let it build previews.
3) Scroll and delete with arrow and delete keys. I find doing this in the RAW converter is nice since it allows me to work with a file a little to see if it's a keeper.
4) Make edits as necessary (exposure, levels, curves, WB, sharpen, etc.)
5) Batch convert to a printer profile destination.
6) Print at the local minilab.

Some things go into Photoshop or Noise Ninja if additional work is needed, but the vast majority go straight from RAW Converter to print. For me the workflow is not done until I have a tactile print in hand. Digital is great for control, but having photos on the computer is not my goal.

This workflow (especially Capture One) is great for a large number of photos. I can cut 400-500 photos down in an hour or two, depending on the subject matter. Usually keeper ratio is down around 5-10%.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 06:46:21 pm by Sheldon N »
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jani

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Day to Day Raw conversion workflow
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2006, 06:30:14 pm »

Here's how my workflow has developed. I've tried to describe how it has changed since I acquired the EOS 20D in December 2004.

I'm always working with RAW, except for some very quick conversions of snapshots for web.

Workflow version 1.0:

1) Copy images from CF card(s) to the harddisk, using default folder names
2) Preview and pre-adjust images in Canon DPP
3) Batch convert keepers to TIFF and export to PS 7
4) Do whatever processing is necessary in PS 7 (no NR at that time)
5) Convert to web format using "save for web".

Workflow version 2.0:

1) Copy images form CF card(s) to two different computers, using default folder names
2) Preview images in Adobe Bridge, mark potential keepers with colours
3) Open 5-10 keepers at a time in ACR and pre-adjust
4) Open and process the same in PS CS2 (NR and sharpening as needed)
5) Convert some to web format using "save for web", some in batch using Cygwin (or Unix/Linux) with ImageMagick
6) Spend more time with candidates for print (often saved as PSD)
7) Go to step 2 until done

Workflow version 2.1:

1) As in version 2.0, except that folder names now are on the form "YYYY-mm-dd location"
2) - 4) As in version 2.0
5) Use "save as" in JPEG for web candidates
6) - 7) As in version 2.0

Workflow version 2.2 beta:

1) As in version 2.1
2) - 3) As in version 2.0, except with Raw Shooter Essentials
4) - 7) As in version 2.0
Abandoned

Workflow version 2.3 beta:

1) As in version 2.1, but three computers (new Mac)
2) - 3) As in version 2.0, except with Capture One Pro for Mac (demo)
4) - 7) As in version 2.0
Abandoned

Workflow version 3.0 beta:

1) As in version 2.3 beta
2) Import images into Adobe Lightroom Beta
3) Preview and select keepers
4) Adjust keepers in Lightroom
5) If necessary, edit in PS Elements 4 (waiting for delivery) on the Mac or PS CS2 on a wintel box
6) - 8) As 5 to 7 in version 2.1


There is no mention of particular NR or sharpening tools here, simply because I haven't purchased any. I use NR in the raw converter (if it helps), and I also use CS2's sharpening mechanisms. I'll probably purchase specific tools later, but this depends on what happens with Lightroom and available plugins.


DPP, Capture One and Raw Shooter Essentials were abandoned not because of the products' quality, but because I just don't feel comfortable with the workflow in these tools. RSE is rock bottom for me, its user interface just doesn't fit into how my mind works. Capture One was also a bit counter intuitive to me, while DPP just didn't provide enough and decent enough controls (just as well, because the interface sucked, too).

Aperture hasn't been on the beta list. Although I probably can lay my hands on a "trial" version (YKWIM ...), I'm not going down that path, and I'm definitely not paying Apple just to find out whether this is something for me or not.

Bridge and ACR are okay, except that I'd love for Bridge to let me use more categories than just five different colours, and there are shortcuts only for four of those -- sheesh. ACR is still fairly sluggish, and so is PS CS2, in terms of opening/converting files. (Yes, I know that converting files can't be lightning quick at this point in time, but it's still slightly annoying.)

Bibble is on the ToDo list.

Lightroom has nearly everything I want and seems to have a very friendly workflow, except that I'm nowhere near using it properly yet. I expect that the Lightroom introduction DVD will help me a bit on the way, once I get the time to sit down and get dirty with this.

As for PS CS2 vs. PS Elements 4 on the Mac, I'm not shelling out another bunch of hundreds of dollars to Adobe for a second CS2 license, I can use that money on another lens -- or the full version of Lightroom -- sometime. I'm risking that 100 dollars or so of upgrade (yep, got an old version lying about) because I think Elements will do what I need if I need something other than Lightroom.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 06:31:20 pm by jani »
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Ronny Nilsen

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Day to Day Raw conversion workflow
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2006, 02:40:44 am »

Quote
Bibble is on the ToDo list.

Lightroom has nearly everything I want and seems to have a very friendly workflow, except that I'm nowhere near using it properly yet. I expect that the Lightroom introduction DVD will help me a bit on the way, once I get the time to sit down and get dirty with this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59574\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I use Bibble and is very satisfied with that, but looking at Lightroom (the tutorial DVD was a great way to see what LR is all about) it seems to be able to support more or less the same workflow i have with bibble todat. LR have some features missing in bibble, and bibblke have some fetaures that is missing from LR.

My current workflow is:

1) Copy images from CF card(s) to the harddisk, folder names are on the form "YYYYmmdd_location"
2) Preview images in Bibble and delete what i dont't want to keep.
3) Go through the images and do any adjustments that are needen (bibble have Noise Ninja pluging and BPTlens,  and curves tools looking musch like whats in LR from the DVD.).
3) Press the 'P' key to publish the images I want on the web. (I have set up a b atch queue to generate thumbs etc. + a separate file with the exif information that the web sw uses to diskplay it)
3) Send all images to a batch queue for generation of jpgs that can be used for printing etc.

If needded I will prosess the images in PS elements, but thats is not often.
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