Dye ink better than 3rd party pigment ink?

[Some Guy]

Curious if anyone has found that the Epson "Dye" inks are now more light-fast than some popular third-party "Pigment" inks?

Asking because I read where the Epson PictureMate Charm (Portable) uses 4 colors of "dye" ink, and dpreview listed Epson as claiming "They'll be fade resistant for 96 years under glass" ( http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3282590615/picturematecharm ).

Prior, I printed some test image using 3rd party dye with a 3880 and it faded out in just a few days in the sunlight.  Not too happy with that.  Switched the printer over to a 3rd party pigment ink and it is faring better in the sunlight.  The Epson Charm "dye" print seems to be holding up better (I taped it to a pole in the yard foe 3 weeks and it still looks new!) vs. the 3rd party inks, dye or pigment.

I would have thought the 3rd party pigment would have lasted better than Epson dye ink, but maybe Epson has some sneaky ink formula in their dye ink now. 

SG

[John Nollendorfs]

Using good dyes (most 3rd party ones don't last long) and printed on the right kind of paper (swellable polymer), yes dyes can do pretty well. Also, with dyes, it helps to be in a dry climate, because humidity causes dye migration, which causes them to fail prematurely. Also just because they are pigments, doesn't mean they will last as long as the OEM pigments. Different pigment inks will have different fade characteristics. The best lasting pigments today are made by HP and have a very neutral fade characteristic. But Mark at AArendburg-imagining can give you more precise data.
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Paul Roark]

I use the Epson-Noritsu carts for a source of "Claria" type Epson dyes for B&W.  Footnote 11 of my write-up of an OEM Claria B&W approach at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-Claria-BW.pdf summarizes some of the http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ fade test data that is relevant.  For a comparison of Claria Dyes with MIS's older color pigments, see page 4 of AaI&A_Summary_2009.pdf, downloadable from the bottom of the page at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/documents.html.  In this comparison, the Claria dyes did better than the MIS pigments at the time.  I don't know if there are any current pigments for which these results hold.  Another comparison:  at 70 MLux Hours of exposure, a Claria black only print on Canson Baryta, sprayed with Premier Art Print Shield, has an average I* Color score of 88.8 and Delta E of 2.3.  This compares to an  I* Color score of 68.1 and Delta E of 5.0 for the Cone Piezo “Carbon Selenium MPS K7” on Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk and sprayed with Hahnemuhle protective spray.  The 50% test patch delta E’s were 2.6 for the Claria, 6.3 for the Piezo print.

I really like B&W dyes images on metallic paper.  So, I've looked into this issue considerably and have a sample of my latest effort in my own fade testing currently. 

The bottom line of where I'm at with my experience is that the Claria (Noritsu large format carts included) dyes appear to be the best available to us at the moment.  I would avoid third party dyes for serious work.  the Claria/Noritsu black is not very strong when not at its 100% black point.  The dilute blacks I used initially do warm quickly.  Due to this, I currently use, in effect, a K2 color arrangement even for B&W dyes.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-Noritsu-2K.pdf .  This is the approach I have in fade testing now, but it will be a few weeks before I see any preliminary results.  The effectiveness of the Lascaux spray I use is one of the variables.  The heavier Print Shield solvent type sprays appear to be more effective at protection but eliminate much of the visual advantages of the dyes.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[enduser]

On my HP printer, the genuine HP black inks are pigment, not dye. The color inks are dye.

[Paul Roark]

Regarding the HP dye inkset with a pigment ink black, is there a gloss differential on glossy paper where the pigment ink takes over?  What model HP is this?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Some Guy]

I use the Epson-Noritsu carts for a source of "Claria" type Epson dyes for B&W.  Footnote 11 of my write-up of an OEM Claria B&W approach at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-Claria-BW.pdf summarizes some of the http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ fade test data that is relevant.  For a comparison of Claria Dyes with MIS's older color pigments, see page 4 of AaI&A_Summary_2009.pdf, downloadable from the bottom of the page at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/documents.html.  In this comparison, the Claria dyes did better than the MIS pigments at the time.  I don't know if there are any current pigments for which these results hold.  Another comparison:  at 70 MLux Hours of exposure, a Claria black only print on Canson Baryta, sprayed with Premier Art Print Shield, has an average I* Color score of 88.8 and Delta E of 2.3.  This compares to an  I* Color score of 68.1 and Delta E of 5.0 for the Cone Piezo “Carbon Selenium MPS K7” on Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk and sprayed with Hahnemuhle protective spray.  The 50% test patch delta E’s were 2.6 for the Claria, 6.3 for the Piezo print.

I really like B&W dyes images on metallic paper.  So, I've looked into this issue considerably and have a sample of my latest effort in my own fade testing currently. 

The bottom line of where I'm at with my experience is that the Claria (Noritsu large format carts included) dyes appear to be the best available to us at the moment.  I would avoid third party dyes for serious work.  the Claria/Noritsu black is not very strong when not at its 100% black point.  The dilute blacks I used initially do warm quickly.  Due to this, I currently use, in effect, a K2 color arrangement even for B&W dyes.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-Noritsu-2K.pdf .  This is the approach I have in fade testing now, but it will be a few weeks before I see any preliminary results.  The effectiveness of the Lascaux spray I use is one of the variables.  The heavier Print Shield solvent type sprays appear to be more effective at protection but eliminate much of the visual advantages of the dyes.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul for the reads.  One requires a membership though, but I got the most of it in your readings.

I need to try the B&W dyes with the metallics again.  Aside, I also have a K7 printer, but haven't been that happy with the results of the selenium.  The color can go from yellow highlights into the colder blue shadows based on the paper choice.  On canvas, it is a sickly green-black (Bromide look?) for whatever reason.

Plus, it does rub off like newsprint ink unless followed with a spray.  Found out in a stacking of prints where it rubbed off onto the backs, as well as trying to rub on some Renissance Wax where the cotton ball turned a blackish green.  RW really does need some sort of undercoating, even GO out of the K7 inkset which is really the best part of K7 to me.  I get better B&W and tones out of the Epson using RGB and altering the color cast for the print in it using Qimage over QTR, Gamma 2.2, and the K7 inkset.  At least it washes off my hands and sink easily after refilling rather than staining everything around the place as with the dyes.

Someday I need to see one of your B&W metallics with B&W dyes in person too.

SG