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Author Topic: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation  (Read 79861 times)

mbaginy

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #100 on: July 02, 2015, 12:30:44 am »

... Wouldn’t hurt you any to think about these things a bit, though.
Darn, Andrew, you may be asking a bit too much of many.  What I experience daily in the office, on the roads or on foot down town makes me wonder if possibly a majority have forgotten how to think on their own.  After all, it can be dangerous!  One might come to different conclusions that others.
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amolitor

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #101 on: July 02, 2015, 01:01:24 am »

I hope you're right, John. Still, I suspect the genie is out of the bottle. We have photorealistic effects in movies, even in utterly mundane films.

We have photoshopped celebrities on every magazine cover.

We have North Korea's hilarious efforts at propaganda, monthly, it sometimes seems.

And so on. You'd have to be a starry eyed idealist to believe in any of the Important Photos if it were made today, surely?

But I hope you're right. I like that photography is more than painting really fast. And I do see your point. If people simply get over it, or if we are more at pains to separate altered from unaltered, perhaps there will re-open a space for the reality based picture? There are paths one can imagine back, I suppose!

« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 01:04:17 am by amolitor »
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elliot_n

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #102 on: July 02, 2015, 07:41:08 am »

We have photorealistic effects in movies, even in utterly mundane films.

We have photoshopped celebrities on every magazine cover.


But people don't watch movies, and they don't buy magazines. Instead they look at photos of their friends and family on Facebook. These photos, mainly shot on smartphones, are unmanipulated; pixels have not been shifted. Sure, 'filters' may have been applied, but most of these filters attempt to simulate the aura of the film-based photograph; by approximating the look of film, the filter appears to give the image greater depth and authenticity. As pixels aren't moved, the image retains its indexical relationship to reality. Indeed, it thrives off it. Facebook is the contemporary 'space for the reality based picture'.
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AlfSollund

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #103 on: July 02, 2015, 01:54:19 pm »

Thanks for a great discussion, and for the article that started it  :)

I tend to think of art as meta-reality. The best of such art in is more real than reality - for me. I find some of the best of such art in graphic fiction (Scott Adams, Neil Gailman, ...).

Should photography be like this? Yes, imo those that publish photos do it for a reason. The reason is that we want to say something. This can be "look how great I am". Aside from this why not try to enhance the photo, to make it a better representation of reality if this is the goal of the photo? I only capture a tiny aspect of the reality when make an exposure. From that starting point its only fair to have the means to better represent the reality.

So to add to the great post from amolitor; wouldn't hurt to think about why you share a photo.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #104 on: July 02, 2015, 03:08:59 pm »

It’s undeniable is that a photograph's power as a photograph derives from some sort of deep connection with reality.

Denied: A photograph is merely a shallow reflection of past sensibly-perceptible-reality - but that's more than we have without a photograph.


If photographs are to be a thing in their own right, that connection with reality has to count for something -- because there isn't anything else.

Yes there is something else - Quick&EasyTM image-making. (Compare to tracing mirror or lens images, and consider that photographs are being replaced by computer generated images when that's quicker and easier and cheaper.)

Yes there is something else - by virtue of Quick&EasyTM image-making, a "capacity to engage with both the process and experience of time".

There's a shallow reflection of reality and Quick&EasyTM and a capacity to engage with time and

We, the viewer, tend to make two mistakes.

We, the writer, tend to make two mistakes -- over-generalization and overreach.

"Oh, you really captured her personality" can be understood as a polite social utterance rather than a statement of belief.

We may indeed "from a look at the picture, … understand in a useful way what was going on there and then" (depends what's useful).


We assume that what we see in the frame was, at least, what was literally there at that moment. This is also untrue, of course. There's stuff outside the frame, there's manipulation within the frame, and so on.

"There's stuff outside the frame" does not contradict "what we see in the frame was, at least, what was literally there at that moment".

The assumption "what we see in the frame was, at least, what was literally there at that moment" is contingent on the premise that the photograph was not manipulated.


The generation after mine is…

Is that just your assumption, or a generalization from a handful of individuals to a generation, or …


Enough already!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 03:29:29 pm by Isaac »
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #105 on: July 02, 2015, 03:24:04 pm »

Quote
Published: November 4, 1984

"In the not-too-distant future, realistic-looking images will probably have to be labeled, like words, as either fiction or nonfiction, because it may be impossible to tell them apart. We may have to rely on the image maker, and not the image, to tell us into which category certain pictures fall."
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LesPalenik

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #106 on: July 02, 2015, 08:20:19 pm »

1984! Whoever wrote it, would make a good futurist.

Maybe soon we will, indeed, need labeling to categorize photographs: journalistic, forensic, artistic, abstract, composites, panoramas, ...

 
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #107 on: July 02, 2015, 08:59:43 pm »

Whoever wrote it…

Fred Ritchin, a former photo editor of The New York Times Magazine.

The underlined link provides the full article: http://www.nytimes.com/1984/11/04/magazine/photography-s-new-bag-of-tricks.html
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amolitor

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2015, 02:09:14 pm »

Isaac, you appear to be trying to rebut my argument by talking about Photography, the activity.

I'm talking about Photography, a body of two dimensional visual objects.

Since we're talking about two almost completely different things, I don't think there's any scope for an actual discussion.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #109 on: July 04, 2015, 02:31:03 pm »

I'm talking about Photography, a body of two dimensional visual objects.

The comment I gave specific-reply-to never mentioned "photography" - you talked about photographs and so did I.


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amolitor

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2015, 02:36:07 pm »

Your 'quick and easy' reference refers to the activity of photography.

It's quite tiresome to follow-up your citations and dig through them to find out, invariably, that they are completely off point despite some trivial keyword matches.

I don't know if you're doing it deliberately, and I don't care. Which is why I so rarely bother to reply to you.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2015, 02:55:36 pm »

Your 'quick and easy' reference refers to the activity of photography.

To the process of photography - by virtue of which we gain a capacity to engage with time - as-well-as the pursuit of photography.

Similarly your claim of "some sort of deep connection with reality" refers to the process of photography.


It's quite tiresome to follow-up your citations and dig through them to find out, invariably, that they are completely off point despite some trivial keyword matches.

I look forward to your clarification of how "There's stuff outside the frame" is an example of something untrue about "what we see in the frame was, at least, what was literally there at that moment".

I look forward to your clarification of why we would assume "what we see in the frame was, at least, what was literally there at that moment" if we knew "there's manipulation within the frame".
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 03:43:24 pm by Isaac »
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amolitor

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2015, 03:59:56 pm »

No. I am talking about objects not activity. Claiming otherwise is simply wrong.

I am the authority on the subject of 'what is Andrew talking about' and you are not.

Your lame pseudo intellectual efforts to wrest me off track and waste my time are for naught.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2015, 04:14:13 pm »

No. I am talking about objects not activity. Claiming otherwise is simply wrong.

If your claim of "some sort of deep connection with reality" does not refer to "the process of photography" - recording light - what does it refer to?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 04:21:26 pm by Isaac »
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amolitor

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2015, 05:17:09 pm »

Does anyone else need any help with these clarifications or is it pretty much just Isaac?
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2015, 05:51:20 pm »

Just Isaac.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2015, 07:35:22 pm »

Does anyone else need any help with these clarifications or is it pretty much just Isaac?

Take any response to what you write as an opportunity to expound, for the alternative is no interest in what you write.
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stamper

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2015, 03:50:13 am »

Does anyone else need any help with these clarifications or is it pretty much just Isaac?


You are wasting your time with Isaac. :(

Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2015, 01:28:56 pm »

The photographic artist still selects the image he/she wants, but the raw image itself is firmly attached to an exterior reality, rather than the interior psychology of the artist.

A live video feed might be "firmly attached to an exterior reality"; a photograph is firmly detached.

You seem to be describing a photo-booth rather than "a photographic artist".

The camera simply takes an image.

You seem to be describing a photo-booth rather than comparing a portrait painter with a portrait photographer.

Many portrait artists today use photography to reinforce particular aspects of a portrait that they may have difficulty capturing in a live session, and in my opinion, to the extent that they do that, the deader the image becomes. Painted portraits, IMHO, require the psychology, culture and hand of the artist to be foremost, because that's where painting's strength is; a photographic portrait needs to push as close to an objective realism as possible, because that where the photographic strength lies.

There have been many celebrated portrait photographers. Which of them are celebrated for pushing as close to an objective realism as possible?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 01:30:55 pm by Isaac »
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elliot_n

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2015, 01:39:10 pm »


There have been many celebrated portrait photographers. Which of them are celebrated for pushing as close to an objective realism as possible?

Thomas Ruff.
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