Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Do you still need tilt and shift?  (Read 5148 times)

Abdulrahman Aljabri

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 307
    • http://www.aljabri.com
Do you still need tilt and shift?
« on: June 24, 2015, 07:33:59 am »

Do you still need tilt and shift with all the post processing options available today? There are so many programs that can adjust convergences and give you the same depth f field from tilting. Is there any point in getting tilt and shift lenses and mounting heads on large format cameras?

Thanks
Logged
MY SITE: AL

Otto Phocus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 655
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2015, 07:45:37 am »

Using software to mimic the effects of a T/S lens has a cost.  Image quality and the actual extent of the image (crop) can be adversely affected by using software.

Using a T/S lens also has a cost.... often the expense of the lens it self and the extra time it takes to set it up.

So, if the disadvantages/advantages of using software are acceptable, then no, the individual photographer does not need a T/S lens.

On the other hand, if the disadvantages/advantages of using software are not acceptable, then yes, the individual photographer needs a T/S lens.

Like most things in photography, there is no one answer.

Much can be done with software.  But I do not think we are at the point where T/S lenses are obsolete.
Logged
I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.

synn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1235
    • My fine art portfolio
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2015, 09:05:50 am »

It's not always possible to visualize beforehand how the image will look like after keytone correction in post. I do this with cityscapes and the success rate is quite mixed. The workaround of course is to go as wide as you can to allow buffer space, but then you won't have as much per pixel detail.

Also, T/S lenses are generally quite sharp edge to edge because of their bigger image circle, which also adds to the quality of the final output.

But yeah, for casual use, you can get away with doing corrections in post, but when the quality of the final output is paramount, getting their optically does still have some merits.
Logged
my portfolio: www.sandeepmurali.com

EricWHiss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2639
    • Rolleiflex USA
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2015, 12:52:46 pm »

The software that mimics tilt basically blurs out sections of the image.  If you were using tilt to get what you wanted in DOF without having to stop down really far, then the software isn't going to help you.   If you are using a tiny sensor camera and wide lens that has huge DOF then you can utilize the software to some extent.   If you are not able to get it all within the DOF then you have to stack focus first.    For shift, there are perspective control options, but unless they are very sophisticated and have data for each lens at multiple focus distance settings then its not going to get close to doing actual lens movement on camera. It has a different look, that I find less natural and for a lot of subjects it's not possible to take multiple frames.    Personally, I think it's easier to get what you want in camera, so yes, I'd say there still is a need for T/S lenses.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 12:54:20 pm by EricWHiss »
Logged
Rolleiflex USA

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2015, 12:58:28 pm »

... and give you the same depth f field from tilting...

Not unless you focus-stack during capture.

Chris Barrett

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 730
    • www.christopherbarrett.net
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2015, 01:04:23 pm »

Well, for architecture... absolutely.  Why start off with an inferior image when it's possible to shoot it the 'right way'?  Also, Canon's 24mm TS-e is about the sharpest 24mm on the planet.  So, it's a great way to start a shifted image.

Personally, I use shift on pretty much every image but only rarely tilt.  The wides usually have all the DoF I need.

IMHO
CB

Abdulrahman Aljabri

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 307
    • http://www.aljabri.com
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2015, 03:15:57 pm »


So, if the disadvantages/advantages of using software are acceptable, then no, the individual photographer does not need a T/S lens.


One advantage to using software that I would like to add is the weight saving. This is especially important for meeting airline restrictions, reducing fatigue, being less of a target in airport/customs, etc. Traveling with a camera and two zoom lenses is so convenient.


It's not always possible to visualize beforehand how the image will look like after keytone correction in post. I do this with cityscapes and the success rate is quite mixed. The workaround of course is to go as wide as you can to allow buffer space, but then you won't have as much per

I shoot hotels, and generally each picture is allocated no less than 1 hour of time, so I get a chance to do the corrections and crop accordingly. I thought using a tilt shift lens might save me some time, by removing that step, but since they never come as zooms, I would still have to test the composition by cropping in software. I figured I would not be able to save as much time as I would like. It would be amazing if there was a zoom TS lens.


The software that mimics tilt basically blurs out sections of the image

Helicon Focus can't match and exceed tilt effect?


For shift, there are perspective control options, but unless they are very sophisticated and have data for each lens at multiple focus distance settings then its not going to get close to doing actual lens movement on camera.

I use PTLens to manually correct perspective. Are there programs that can automate this process much like PTLens can automate lens distortion corrections by employing pre-saved lens profiles?


Well, for architecture... absolutely.  Why start off with an inferior image when it's possible to shoot it the 'right way'?  Also, Canon's 24mm TS-e is about the sharpest 24mm on the planet.  So, it's a great way to start a shifted image.

Hello Chris, nice to see you again. Inferior in what way, composition or resolution especially in the corners? It's the first part I am most interested to learn about.

By the way how does the canon 24tse perform when aimed towards windows? When I shoot bedrooms I often get flare from my 17-40L, especially when the window is small and the furniture is dark. You see it especially on the curtains where they are completely washed out on the edges.   

 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 03:20:01 pm by Abdulrahman Aljabri »
Logged
MY SITE: AL

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2015, 03:24:55 pm »

Hi,

There are different applications for T&S. Shift is useful to correct converging vertical while tilt is useful to be able to tilt the plane of focus.

Perspective corrections can be made in Lightroom and they are quite good, but they can be unpredictable and there is often missing detail in the lower corners, as the image is normally compressed at the bottom and expanded at the top.

It is quite possible to use stitching for verticals and it is possible to use stacking for infinite depth of field, but neither of those techniques is always applicable.


I will order a Canon T&S lens in just a few days.Not in a really hurry as the camera I will put it on may be available early August.

Best regards
Erik

Do you still need tilt and shift with all the post processing options available today? There are so many programs that can adjust convergences and give you the same depth f field from tilting. Is there any point in getting tilt and shift lenses and mounting heads on large format cameras?

Thanks
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 03:31:54 pm by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Abdulrahman Aljabri

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 307
    • http://www.aljabri.com
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2015, 03:34:39 pm »

Thanks. How does the program know how to correct vertical convergence? Obviously with a  picture of a mountain there are no lines like in an interior or architecture picture, so how does it do it?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 03:37:32 pm by Abdulrahman Aljabri »
Logged
MY SITE: AL

Rainer SLP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
    • RS-Fotografia
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2015, 03:41:14 pm »

Thanks. How does the program know how to correct vertical convergence? Obviously with a  picture of a mountain there are no lines like in an interior or architecture picture, so how does it do it?

I think here Erik made it manually ...
Logged
Thanks and regards Rainer
 I am here for

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2015, 03:41:33 pm »

It would be amazing if there was a zoom TS lens.
There is a Zoom Tilt-Shift system. see here. This is an example with a Canon 11-24 mm lens, he's done something similar with a Nikon 14-24 mm.

There is a lot more detail and discussion on these systems by the same poster (with the same nickname) on the GetDPI forum
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2015, 04:57:16 pm »

Yes, indeed. Shot with a 14/3.5 Samyang lens.

Best regards
Erik

I think here Erik made it manually ...

Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Geods

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2015, 08:59:08 pm »

For single shot imaging, there is still a reason for TS-lenses. That said, I've recently sold all my LF equipment but retained (for now) three Nikon TS-lenses and a Hasselblad HTS. Much of my latest imaging has involved stitching with a Nikon D800e and a conventional lens. I apply perspective and distortion correction with PS's adaptive wide angle filter. The result is distortion free, perspective controlled, and superhigh resolution, which in IMHO easily exceeds 8x10-LF or a single shot from a MF DSLR. The nice thing about shooting in this manner is that the resolution is typically so high I can crop the image in the most pleasing manner, in effect shooting with a focal length that I might not own nor be available, and the quality is still available for mural sized prints at 300DPI. I like creamy tones and perspective controlled images and to me the tools available in Photoshop make it easy with clearly superior results to single shots taken with TS lenses...
Logged

Abdulrahman Aljabri

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 307
    • http://www.aljabri.com
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2015, 04:39:52 pm »

Thanks allot for this link. I am now trying to buy a used A7r so that I can pair it with the adapter and try it with my 17-40/4. This might be the biggest improvement to my work flow since switching to shooting completely in raw.

Thanks again
Logged
MY SITE: AL

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2015, 02:56:34 pm »

Hi Abdulrahman,

I just checked you homepage, you are making some good images. Keep up the good work!

Best regards
Erik


Thanks allot for this link. I am now trying to buy a used A7r so that I can pair it with the adapter and try it with my 17-40/4. This might be the biggest improvement to my work flow since switching to shooting completely in raw.

Thanks again
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

ACH DIGITAL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 613
    • http://www.achdigital.com
Re: Do you still need tilt and shift?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2015, 05:51:29 pm »

For me doing products photography shifting is essential to get bigger files as I might take 2 or 3 back shifted images and then compose them in a huge file.

As far as tilting goes, I does help a bit but find myself still needing to take at least 10 shots with different focus to stack in Helicon Focus Software. This is where digital surpasses analog.

For architecture is very useful but tedious job. I have shot several times wider and then crop to taste. Any way for architecture you don't need such big file. With almost 40 mpx you can crop a bit and still get plenty.

Correcting lines in software sometimes produce unrealistic results, mostly when working close to the building and using a 14mm for example.

So it is kind of a mixed up bag.

Better to experiment what works for you.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 10:47:17 am by ACH DIGITAL »
Logged
Antonio Chagin
www.achdigital.com
Pages: [1]   Go Up