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Author Topic: ...and I'm out.  (Read 53812 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2015, 03:04:05 pm »

Why don't you ask them for a price sometime and then look at what they ask you to pay for, when they quote that price.

Number of people (images): 1
Media use: Bed & Breakfast only.
Period of use: 1 day (ends 11am tomorrow morning).
Territory of use: Jeddah only.
Fee (for the use of the thing that they have produced for you to use) based on the above information: .........

Which I bet would be for a very different amount, if you where to say to them: "But I want exclusive use of all your hotels throughout the world, and everything included for the next 10 years, for me and all my mates" :)

So I think you will find, that the pricing system I use, isn't really any different to their own - which is why I find, most of them don't have a problem understanding how it works.

That is a great explanation, but when do you bring up this conversation?  

I ask because it seems to be that you never really know that they did not understand it until you pick up the phone a few weeks later and find out they already signed with someone who gave them everything.  
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Abdulrahman Aljabri

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2015, 03:06:57 pm »

I would guess you have never been to a place like Ireland, where I understand that weather conditions can be quite variable and there is a lot of rain and cloudiness. However, only Ashley can explain any particular environmental challenges of that particular shot, though I would guess that clouds and/or rain had something to do with it.

Correct I never been to a Ireland specifically, but I traveled to many part of Europe and lived in North America. The weather is different from where I live for sure and all of my hotel photography is around the equator so the weather is consistent and to an extent predictable.

I think this serves as a perfect example why people cannot see any extra effort required to get the picture done, hence I am specialized photographer in the field and did not see it.   
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David Eichler

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2015, 03:18:20 pm »

Here you go: How much does it cost to take a picture ?

Okay, well that answers the question about that particular image. However, what if the weather forecast looked favorable and then turned out to be unfavorable on the day of the shoot, for days at a time? With your model, you eat the cost of any additional travel, assistants' fees, equipment rental costs, etc., and perhaps also lodging (unless the hotel puts you up), not to mention a lot of your time, whereas with the more typical model the client covers those costs (though the charge for time for waiting or travel may be less than the photographer's day rate). It is a question of who assumes the financial risk for circumstances that are beyond the photographer's control, and what the potential reward is for the level of that risk. In that calculus, the cost of the equipment you use is a significant consideration, since that is either a part of your ongoing cost of doing business (for depreciation, maintenance, updating and insurance) that you factor into your day rate or a rental expense.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 04:05:59 pm by David Eichler »
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Chris Barrett

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2015, 05:06:28 pm »

Wow, you guys have been busy.  My wife has the day off, so we had breakfast and caught an early showing of Terminator...mindless but totally entertaining.  Now I'm off to work in the yard (which is so much cheaper than therapy).

I'll have to catch up on all this after I've come back in and had a chance to mix up some margaritas.

Cheers,
CB

Harold Clark

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2015, 05:38:51 pm »

Waiting...

...for the clouds to move...
...for the rain to stop...
...for cars to move...
...for the wind to stop...
...for the wind to start...
...for someone to get the pool cover open...
...for the construction crew, or cleaning crew, or landscaping maintenance crew or client to get out of the damn way.


Also waiting for the smokers standing around the doorway feeding their addiction to finish up and go back inside.
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David Eichler

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2015, 05:11:00 am »

You sound like someone, David - since this does seem to be your No.1 concern - who regularly fails to be able to provide your clients with some images that they would want to use afterwards, for the price you have quoted them beforehand - even though you seem to be fully aware that things like this could happen beforehand.

So I guess that's why you want people beforehand, to agree to hire you and pay you for 'your time & expenses' instead - because then all you have to do is turn-up, with whatever equipment they have also agreed to pay you for, to bring along... which I assume your clients do, unlike Chris', since you mentioned 'the cost of the equipment' here.

Is that correct ??

Just so you know, that figure I mentioned to you in private the other day, when I asked you "how many hotels in your part of the world would be willing to that amount" - to which you replied "very few" - well that is in fact how much these people paid me here, for the Rights to use each of these 2 images, after seeing the final results.

So my question to you here is: If that was the sort of money that you could possibly make, for taking two very simple exterior shots like this, how many days would be willing to put aside here, to ensure you got something that they would want to use in the end - besides another excuse for you having failed once again, due to you either not having done your homework beforehand or you not caring, because all you are really interested in, is being paid for 'your time & expenses' to turn-up ??

Very few people want to pay me for excuses David, or for something that they can't use or are able to use - so when I quote a price beforehand, that price is based on me providing them with something that they will want to use, rather than based on me just turning-up - and so the fee is based on the use, rather than on an excuse  :D

I have never failed to provide a client with images they wanted to use and you have misrepresented what I said in the conversation you cite. We were discussing long-distance travel, and you said for you to travel half way around the world that you would need a client who wanted a minimum of 5 images at a fee of a minimum of $2,000 apiece, and you asked me whether I thought there were many hotels in my area, for example, that would have that sort of need and budget, to which I replied that I thought that there were very few hotels in my area that would pay that rate per image, and that at that rate they would probably only want one or two images. This is consistent with the example you just cited above, which involves a couple of extremely high-end hotels that only wanted one or two images from you at that rate.

Would I take some additional risks for the kind of fee that you mention? Possibly. It would depend upon what the overall deal was, and what I would be risking beyond my own time.  Taking the hotel exteriors you have given as an example, if the weather had not been clear, do you think the client would have wanted to use photos shot under cloudy or rainy conditions? If not, for how many days or weeks would you have been willing to stay at those locations, or how many return trips would you have been willing to make, in order to be able to shoot under clear weather conditions, so that you could get a result that you were reasonably confident that the client would want? Let's take it even further and say that the hotels were not in Ireland but in a completely different part of the world. The way you seem to be describing it, if necessary, you would be willing to take a loss in order to deliver photos that the client wanted. Is that correct?

As to "homework", there is only so much of that you can do when it comes to the weather in some parts of the world.


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andyptak

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2015, 08:23:47 am »

For God's sake Ashley, will you let it go.

"Different strokes for different folks", and if someone doesn't use your pricing method it doesn't make them an idiot.

This thread started out on a different subject and you have completely hijacked it by trying to ram your pricing model down everybody's throat.

Give it a rest for once.
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synn

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2015, 08:48:57 am »

I have learned from this thread that amateurs quarrel over gear and professionals quarrel over pricing.
Thanks for the education, folks. It was very insightful!
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michaelbiondo

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2015, 11:29:42 am »

How about a new thread, " pricing agnostic business discussions"?

michaelbiondo

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2015, 02:10:30 pm »

BC, Just a bit of a joke, I agree that the discussion on pricing is relevant (and interesting).

In the past 30 years I have experienced day rates in the six figures and in the single figures. One thing that I have learned is that every client & market is different so it is very interesting but difficult to compare/ debate different pricing structures. Clearly we are all in it for the love of photography (at least I am) and I am just grateful to be able to do this for a living and not have to sit behind a desk somewhere.

Regarding pricing, A friend of mine who represents film directors once told me that she has she considers three criteria for accepting a job.

1) quality of work
2) quality of the pay
3) quality of the connections.

If the job satisfies two of the three criteria she takes it if not she walks away. I have found her criteria system to be a really great way to decide on pricing.

IMO

synn

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2015, 05:37:17 pm »

BC: I am a guy with an educational background in art, but currently working a day job that supports these crazy hobbies I have. Photography is just something I enjoy doing. :)
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Manoli

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2015, 11:07:14 am »

And btw: I'm far from xenophobic, as I have a British wife, a London flat and pay a whole raft of fees, taxes, and VAT in the UK.

Nice one, Coots - so now we have an updated definition of a 'xenophile' :
Marry a Brit, buy a flat, pay some VAT and you're good to go ...

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Manoli

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2015, 12:39:35 pm »

Always here to help.

B Cooter
Prez
Cooterpedia

Luv' it !
 ;D

Happy 4th of July.

M

« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 08:55:04 am by Manoli »
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UlfKrentz

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2015, 03:09:52 pm »

snip
But to keep it on topic, hey how bout that Sony A7IIR?  Looks good huh?
snip

I was really surprised to see Chris taking this route but hey, we used to do all of our work with MFD and just pulled stills from 6K motion for double site magazine print… and it´s looking good.
Demand is changing so your workflow has to adopt, so yes shoot whatever fits your style. Did the A7RII already hit the road?

Cheers, Ulf
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 04:28:46 pm by UlfKrentz »
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Chris Barrett

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2015, 06:02:29 pm »

They stab it with their steely knives...

I'm lakeside at a barbecue in Indiana. The batch of sangria I brought has just run out but the slices of peach at the,bottom of my glass are the sweetestt thing I've tasted all day, besting the America flag iced rice crispy treats.

Whatever. Man. Whatever.

eronald

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2015, 07:11:49 pm »

Nice one, Coots - so now we have an updated definition of a 'xenophile' :
Marry a Brit, buy a flat, pay some VAT and you're good to go ...



Well at least he sure ain't a xenobite!
I still get to wait a week for the local beheading celebration :)

Enjoy your drinks, J -

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 07:17:05 pm by eronald »
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D Fuller

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2015, 10:52:04 pm »


It's funny, I always thought Texas was the land of "pour me a double", until living some time in London.  Wow, those folks can knock it down.
...
But to keep it on topic, hey how bout that Sony A7IIR?  Looks good huh?

IMO
BC


Early in the second World War, Winston Churchill came to Washington and stayed at the White House for a few weeks. On the day of his arrival, Churchill told Mr. Fields, the White House butler, how to keep him happy. The menu is recorded in Cita Stelzer's "Dinner With Churchill": "I must have a tumbler of sherry in my room before breakfast, a couple of glasses of scotch and soda before lunch, and French Champagne and 90-year-old brandy before I go to sleep at night."

And back on topic... I'm playing now with a Sony A7s that looks nice, but could use a bit more resolution. For the first time I'm intrigued by the A7RII, even if it's named after a Star Wars robot.
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