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Author Topic: ...and I'm out.  (Read 53752 times)

BJL

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I think the reason for such difference in IC is about sharpness fall off near edge of IC. For a premium lens such as 85LII, Canon wants edge to edge sharpness, hence they have to make IC much larger than normal. For a lower end lens its perfectly acceptable to have some sharpness fall off, then they would make IC smaller.  They would reduce IC whenever they can, because it save on cost.
I doubt that this the issue with an 85mm lens for the 43mm image circle diameter of 35mm format.  Having a big enough 'usable image circle' before things go bad near the edges and corners is a major challenge for wide to normal lens designs, but optical designs for "longer" lenses naturally cover about 50º, for an image circle diameter lost as big as foal length, so essentially all lens designs for narrower than normal field of view produce a bigger image circle than needed. This is then "cropped" to the needed image by the sensor/film, and perhaps by baffles and other obstructions inside the lens and camera body.  You get a hint of this from MTF graphs: as you move to focal lengths significantly longer than the format diagonal length, the MTF falls of very little from center to corner of frame.

In short, an 85mm lens design will be about the same for everything up to about 6x6 or 6x7 format; only for a larger format where 85mm requires wide angle coverage does the lens design vary much, so it is no surprise that such a lens for 35mm format also covers "medium format" sensors.  Try again with a 50mm or shorter lens for 35mm format!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 10:32:33 am by BJL »
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Dshelly

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2015, 10:45:09 am »

It looks to me as though you often do a lot of touch up to your images. Do you also include that work within the day rate or break it out separately? What if the client comes back to you after you have delivered the photos and wants a lot more of this touching up?

Most of my shoots are typically done in front of a white seamless background (paper or cyc), and the images and are handed over to the client on an external drive with no retouching. The reason for this is that the photos are passed on to a creative agency that will utilize the photos to  create a poster (key art), which is then repurposed for collateral materials (billboards, building sides, bus sides, banners, digital, etc.). Because of this, the art directors and graphic designers do all the touch-ups – so I don't often touch up images.

Sometimes, I'm asked to get some portrait shots during the shoot for publicity purposes. These are generally the shots that I touch up, but before I can do that, the actor/actress will have a chance to review the photos and can kill a certain % of photos that they don't like. After the approval process is done, I can then touch up the approved photos. Sometimes it's just one photo that the client picked on behalf of the talent, other times it's 3 or 4 images. Most times it's retouching is a part of my daily fee, but if it's a lot more images they want to see, I charge around 250-300 to clean up an image, and I will revise the photo if the client wants a little more work on a photo. Doesn't happen too often, and when it does, it's typically something minor. I generally do this for no charge because it helps retain the client and makes them happy.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2015, 11:27:18 am »

Ashley, while we may disagree over business practices, and I don't think any of this is worth the time we've spent on it...  I hope you know that I have immense respect for you and your work.  Shall we move on?

CB

ErikKaffehr

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2015, 11:53:26 am »

Hi Chris,

Could you write down some words about the benefits using the present combination of tools you have?

Best regards
Erik

Ashley, while we may disagree over business practices, and I don't think any of this is worth the time we've spent on it...  I hope you know that I have immense respect for you and your work.  Shall we move on?

CB
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David Eichler

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2015, 06:28:03 am »

"Amateurs talk about equipment, Pros talk about money, Masters talk about light" - type of thing.

So, what? You don't think concert violinists talk to one another about bows and strings, and Amati versus Stradivarius and such?

On the other hand, there is a story that some kids asked the saxophonist Cannonball Adderley what equipment he used, and his reply was that he could play just about anything, that mostly what he wanted was something that didn't get in his way.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2015, 08:39:58 am »

Oh... I wasn't getting that at all (what you were asking).  Really, at the forefront of my thoughts was just that the new gear makes my day to day work easier and more enjoyable.  If it allows me to make one more image in a day, then I'll still charge digital fees (including post) for that image... which is mostly profit.  My clients will get more images, I'll make a little more money, work will be easier... we'll all be happy.

Fifteen years ago I shot film.  I typically made 3 images in a day.  Today my clients are getting twice as many shots in a day but only paying 35% more.  While I am making less 'per image' than I used to, my annual billing remains steady.  The market here expects about 5 interiors in a day.  I have to remain competitive in my market.  The efficiency of the new system allows me to do so more easily.

When deciding on a photographer to hire, architects consider image quality, quantity of shots and cost.  So, it's good business to try to maintain a strong balance between the three.  In the long run, ensuring my competitiveness in the market adds more to my bottom line than how much I make per shot.

I hope that clarifies any remaining questions.

CB

Erik, I'll be doing an extensive review on the system and will post here when that's available online.

eronald

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2015, 08:56:33 am »

So, what? You don't think concert violinists talk to one another about bows and strings, and Amati versus Stradivarius and such?

On the other hand, there is a story that some kids asked the saxophonist Cannonball Adderley what equipment he used, and his reply was that he could play just about anything, that mostly what he wanted was something that didn't get in his way.

Kreisler once played a piece at a concert, smashed the violin, said that was something cheap I picked up, now I will play my Strad!

The artist who calls himself "Cooter" once posted a story about some Polaroid Swinger images which nowadays would probably translate to iphone captures ...


Edmund
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 09:02:23 am by eronald »
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Abdulrahman Aljabri

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2015, 08:22:42 am »

The on-set workflow is just so much more efficient and efficiency is quickly becoming the name of the game in commercial imaging.


Speaking about efficiency, how are you able to take bracketed shots with the A7R? I read many reviews that were critical of the camera bracketing feature. Basically you get two bracketing options: 3 or 5 exposures. The 5 exposure bracketing is restricted to either .3 or .7 exposure increments. How are you working around that, just bracketing by changing the exposure manually on your tethered laptop? 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 08:27:59 am by Abdulrahman Aljabri »
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Chris Barrett

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2015, 09:49:13 am »

...just bracketing by changing the exposure manually on your tethered laptop? 

Yep, I never use automated camera settings on professional shoots.  For one thing, there's not enough control and for another I never need brighter exposures.  Also, to answer one of your questions somewhere else... I do my base exposure and then bracket darker from there in 1 stop increments.  I usually get all the info I need within the range of Normal to -5 stops.  You can probably do broader brackets, 1.5 to 2 stops is supposed to be fine.  I've been doing 1 stop increments forever and continue to do so out of habit.

Abdulrahman Aljabri

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2015, 10:57:05 am »

Yep, I never use automated camera settings on professional shoots.  For one thing, there's not enough control and for another I never need brighter exposures.  Also, to answer one of your questions somewhere else... I do my base exposure and then bracket darker from there in 1 stop increments.  I usually get all the info I need within the range of Normal to -5 stops.  You can probably do broader brackets, 1.5 to 2 stops is supposed to be fine.  I've been doing 1 stop increments forever and continue to do so out of habit.

Thanks, that's what I have been doing with my 5D mk2 until now, shooting manual and bracketing in 1 exposure increments. However, I just got the mk3 (used) and I was tempted to use it's auto 7 exposure bracketing. Normally I shoot high contrast scenes (very common in commercial 5 star hotels) in 11 one stop increments; 3 above base and 7 below. I figured if I increase the increments to 1.6 I can squeeze everything into 7 exposures. I will have to try it out in the next opportunity. 

How do you get away with just base plus -5 exposures? I am going to venture a guess that:

A) the spaces you are shooting are very well lite with broad windows, soft artificial light sources and well balanced outdoor/indoor light ratios.
B) the high dynamic range of digital back and the A7R that you are using
c) additional lighting you are setting up, although I tend to think of that as for enhancing not changing overall all ratios.

Which is correct?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 10:59:56 am by Abdulrahman Aljabri »
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Abdulrahman Aljabri

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2015, 12:12:23 pm »

I know setting up the Phase One system is slightly slower than setting up the Canon system - but the difference for me, Chris, would probably be less than minute each time.
And so when looking at creating a number of images which will probably take me over an hour each to set-up (style, light, move stuff, etc, etc) - well then the real difference between using one system or the other, would not be influenced by how long it took me to put the capturing device on the tripod.

How much time do you spend per picture on average? Do some pictures take long? Do you find some pictures take longer because you have to spend more time finding an angle or setting up the space (example banquette setup)?
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David Eichler

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2015, 01:35:36 pm »

Yes, but you and Chris are often shooting different sorts of subject matter. That is, you are typically shooting residential properties, especially single family, but also some hotels/resorts, whereas Chris is mainly shooting commercial and institutional properties. On average, I would say Chris tends to shoot more complex spaces that are larger, and with more interconnecting spaces, than you tend to shoot. Yes, I know that your shots of the larger common areas of hotels might be similar in terms of the complexity of the spaces. However, for the rest, on average, the spaces you tend to shoot do seem less complex to me. That said, different lighting styles and other characteristics of the rooms might affect how technically challenging a space is to shoot, regardless of the size and complexity of the spaces themselves. Thus, it seems to me that it can be hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison regarding  the quantity of photos that interiors/architectural photographers can shoot in a given period of time. I am not saying that you were necessarily trying to make such a specific comparison; however, I think some might tend to try to make such a comparison regardless.


When producing images for mainly 'magazine editorial use', I would aim to produce about 15 images like this...

.. in a day, i.e. in about 8 hours / 9 to 5 type of thing.

When producing images for just 'personal preview use' only, I would aim to produce about 40 or 50 images like this...

.. in less than an hour.

When producing images for someone who I'm hoping will want to use my images a lot, I may only produce about 2 or 3 images like this...

.. in day - and that day could be a long day or a short one, depending on a number of things... which would include how I was feeling :)
Yes - see above - as a lot would depend on the use, as well as the amount of money I'm likely to make / they are prepared to pay.
Yes - the setting-up of the image, is usually the part that takes up most of the time I find - and it's not just my time neither in a lot of cases, because the Stylist may actually start working on the shots, days before we arrive.

Like this one we shot yesterday...

.. which had Marie (my stylist) on her knees by 3 o'clock or this one we shot last week...

.. which you can read all about here: Creating the dream - as well as see what we walked into, when we arrived.

Hence my comments about the actual length of time it takes to set-up the capture device, when doing work like this - which I assume is very similar to what Chris does too, as his images are even more faultless than mine, in every way.
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Abdulrahman Aljabri

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2015, 02:01:41 pm »

When producing images for mainly 'magazine editorial use', I would aim to produce about 15 images like this...

.. in a day, i.e. in about 8 hours / 9 to 5 type of thing.

When producing images for just 'personal preview use' only, I would aim to produce about 40 or 50 images like this...

.. in less than an hour.

When producing images for someone who I'm hoping will want to use my images a lot, I may only produce about 2 or 3 images like this...

.. in day - and that day could be a long day or a short one, depending on a number of things... which would include how I was feeling :)
Yes - see above - as a lot would depend on the use, as well as the amount of money I'm likely to make / they are prepared to pay.
Yes - the setting-up of the image, is usually the part that takes up most of the time I find - and it's not just my time neither in a lot of cases, because the Stylist may actually start working on the shots, days before we arrive.

Like this one we shot yesterday...

.. which had Marie (my stylist) on her knees by 3 o'clock or this one we shot last week...

.. which you can read all about here: Creating the dream - as well as see what we walked into, when we arrived.

Hence my comments about the actual length of time it takes to set-up the capture device, when doing work like this - which I assume is very similar to what Chris does too, as his images are even more faultless than mine, in every way.

Thanks allot for the detailed reply Ashley. Parts of your feedback left me a bit confused though. The exterior being an example of time consuming picture was odd because it dose not require allot of work like setting up or lighting, unless, of course, you are referring to scouting before shooting. In that case I agree an exterior picture can be time consuming to scout, but the actual time for the photoshoot is normally among the shortest.   

I was expecting that you would provide an average, for example 8 pictures per day when shooting hotels. That's after all how the industry functions, major hotel chains require a rate card detailing everything including average daily production rate. The more you provide them detailed pricing (in a brief way) the better and they always require exclusive full usage rights for every picture. The pricing method you use is really different, I never seen any major international hotel chains use it, and it seems to me closer to how advertizing and stock is priced.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 02:04:49 pm by Abdulrahman Aljabri »
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David Eichler

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2015, 02:13:25 pm »

Thanks allot for the detailed reply Ashley. Parts of your feedback left me a bit confused though. The exterior being an example of time consuming picture was odd because it dose not require allot of work like setting up or lighting, unless, of course, you are referring to scouting before shooting. In that case I agree an exterior picture can be time consuming to scout, but the actual time for the photoshoot is normally among the shortest.  

I was expecting that you would provide an average, for example 8 pictures per day when shooting hotels. That's after all how the industry functions, major hotel chains require a rate card detailing everything including average daily production rate. The more you provide them detailed pricing (in a brief way) the better and they always require exclusive full usage rights for every picture. The pricing method you use is really different, I never seen any major international hotel chains use it, and it seems to me closer to how advertizing and stock is priced.

Interesting how people can think daytime exterior architectural photography can be quick and easy, just because supplementary lighting or obvious props may not be involved. It is not just the scouting that can take time. The set up may not necessarily take a lot of time, but, oh, the waiting....
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 02:18:41 pm by David Eichler »
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Abdulrahman Aljabri

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2015, 02:17:48 pm »

Interesting how people can think daytime exterior architectural photography can be quick and easy, just because there is not supplementary lighting or obvious props involved. It is not just the scouting that can take time. The set up may not necessarily take a lot of time, but, oh, the waiting....


haha! waiting for you, here it's always sunny!

by the way this serves as a perfect example of where "people can't see" the time required because it's not obvious.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 02:20:27 pm by Abdulrahman Aljabri »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2015, 02:29:12 pm »

Interesting how people can think daytime exterior architectural photography can be quick and easy, just because supplementary lighting or obvious props may not be involved. It is not just the scouting that can take time. The set up may not necessarily take a lot of time, but, oh, the waiting....


Yes, exactly.  Or people think that the time of day I want to shoot that exterior I just pulled out of the air.  

Day before the 4th of July, everybody will be gone in NYC, hire a photographer to shoot our building.  
Day before the 4th of July, everybody will be gone in NYC, lets also hire someone to perform maintenance on our building and just have the photographer show up an hour earlier then what he recommended, no biggie.  

Only the sun will not be hitting the building an hour earlier then what I recommended.  (What I'm dealing with now.) 
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David Eichler

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2015, 02:37:32 pm »

Waiting...

...for the clouds to move...
...for the rain to stop...
...for cars to move...
...for the wind to stop...
...for the wind to start...
...for someone to get the pool cover open...
...for the construction crew, or cleaning crew, or landscaping maintenance crew or client to get out of the damn way.
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Abdulrahman Aljabri

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2015, 02:47:12 pm »

Waiting...

...for the clouds to move...
...for the rain to stop...
...for cars to move...
...for the wind to stop...
...for the wind to start...
...for someone to get the pool cover open...
...for the construction crew, or cleaning crew, or landscaping maintenance crew or client to get out of the damn way.


yes yes,

waiting for all the curtains and lights to be turned on in a 1200 room hotel
waiting for the government relations manager to show up so he can accompany me (people delay here)
waiting for the police officer to leave me alone so I can continue with my shot and not miss the sun-set
going up a mountain to take the shot
going up 20 floor stairs in a construction site to get to the perfect spot


and on and on, but if we continue like this the thread will turn into a pissing match. Can we agree on one thing, the picture Ashley posted is just NOT a good example. Heck it doesn't even include half the things you listed, lol!
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David Eichler

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2015, 02:53:48 pm »

yes yes,

waiting for all the curtains and lights to be turned on in a 1200 room hotel
waiting for the government relations manager to show up so he can accompany me (people delay here)
waiting for the police officer to leave me alone so I can continue with my shot and not miss the sun-set
going up a mountain to take the shot
going up 20 floor stairs in a construction site to get to the perfect spot


and on and on, but if we continue like this the thread will turn into a pissing match. Can we agree on one thing, the picture Ashley posted is just NOT a good example. Heck it doesn't even include half the things you listed, lol!

I would guess you have never been to a place like Ireland, where I understand that weather conditions can be quite variable and there is a lot of rain and cloudiness. However, only Ashley can explain any particular environmental challenges of that particular shot, though I would guess that clouds and/or rain had something to do with it.
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Abdulrahman Aljabri

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Re: ...and I'm out.
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2015, 03:01:01 pm »

Why don't you ask them for a price sometime and then look at what they ask you to pay for, when they quote that price.

Number of people (images): 1
Media use: Bed & Breakfast only.
Period of use: 1 day (ends 11am tomorrow morning).
Territory of use: Jeddah only.
Fee (for the use of the thing that they have produced for you to use) based on the above: .........

Which I bet would be for a very different amount, if you where to say to them: "But I want exclusive use of all your hotels throughout the world, and everything included for the next 10 years, for me and all my mates" :)

So I think you will find, that the pricing system I use, isn't really any different to their own - which is why I find, most of them don't have a problem understanding how it works.

I am sorry I don't understand your comment, ask who?

I was referring to the major hotel chains (ex: Starwood, Marriott, IHG, Hilton, Accor, etc).
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