When will Sony enter medium format market?

[eronald]

So why then did they release the RX1? A complex, expensive product that didn't have the slightest chance of becoming the "next walkman"?

The masses probably want convenience, portability, "always works", low cost. They are covered nicely with cellphones (or a continually larger percentage of them will be as cellphone tech improves).

The slightly more demanding users (but still large numbers) perhaps wants specs like "lots of zoom", "4k", "slow-motion". I'd say that the RX100M4/RX10M2 hit spot-on.

So why are Sony meddling with MF sensors, RX1, A7rII and the like? Perhaps they want "halo" products. Perhaps they need to test concepts in small scale/high margin before hitting the volume products. Perhaps they have enthusiasts among their staff? Anyways, if they dared to do the RX1, I'd say that doing an "RX0.1" featuring the MF sensor seems _possible_.  

-h

Sony see themselves as much as a "movie studio" as a tech firm: They do big and small productions, and expect a roller-coaster ride with some unexpected successes rather than predictable sales numbers.

Edmund

[hjulenissen]

Everyone should move on to RX 100s.

I am amazed at what the RX100 can do when moderate wide-angle f/5 - equivalent, sensible amounts of light and somewhat slow focus will do.

If you can/want to work within those constraints, I am guessing that many of us would be better off improving ones artistic skills rather than spending lots of cash on upgrades (if/when those are ever in conflict).

I find the lack of interchangeable lens and viewfinder to be too constraining for me to make it my only camera.

-h

[hjulenissen]

Sony see themselves as much as a "movie studio" as a tech firm: They do big and small productions, and expect a roller-coaster ride with some unexpected successes rather than predictable sales numbers.

Edmund

Interesting analogy. But aren't the investors of Hollywood more into predictable follow-ups, franchises and "doing whatever the other guys did with success last year" rather than exciting, experimental, novel, etc films?

I very much agree with your view of Sony cameras: they seem to test out all of the concepts they can think of, then see what floats. Interesting strategy if you have the manpower and financial muscle to do it.

Reminds me of Yamaha and the other Japanese manufacturers captured (large parts of) the musical instruments market from European and US manufacturers in the 70s/80s: flood the market with good and bad products for some time. Eventually, you will find the winning formula and the small-scale "boutique" competitors will never be able to keep up (every product they design reportedly _have_ to be a success, or their financial backing goes away. Thus they cannot persue high-risk/long-development strategies that are more likely to win in the long run).

-h

[Kolor-Pikker]

If bigger isn't better, why are we bothering with full frame? Everyone should move on to RX 100s.

It depends... bigger is better if you can maintain parity between the technology used across all sensor sizes, which we all know isn't so most of the time. By the time the Pentax 645X comes out with a 5-axis stabilizer and a 60mp BSI sensor, the Sony A9 will be out with a bayerless sensor based on micro color splitters or something, and who knows maybe the IQ480 will still be using CCD.

All I know and care about is that every time I open a file from my MF rig, I get astonished by it. I don't have remotely the same feeling from the files form my 35mm rig.

This is my very personal opinion and I am entitled to it.

My opinion is much the same, every time I moved to a larger format the feel of the images was superior to the last, and having looked at the honestly very early A7RII images, they don't look nearly as nice as what I could with the Pentax. Even so, the A7RII is a fraction of the size and weight and is silent, so it would be more appropriate to use where the 645Z would not be. Having never shot 6x6 or 6x7, the 645Z has the loudest shutter actuation I've heard on a camera. I wouldn't mind owning both, if the budget allowed for it, but I'd much rather get one of the new Pentax lenses before a new camera system.

[synn]

My opinion is much the same, every time I moved to a larger format the feel of the images was superior to the last, and having looked at the honestly very early A7RII images, they don't look nearly as nice as what I could with the Pentax. Even so, the A7RII is a fraction of the size and weight and is silent, so it would be more appropriate to use where the 645Z would not be. Having never shot 6x6 or 6x7, the 645Z has the loudest shutter actuation I've heard on a camera. I wouldn't mind owning both, if the budget allowed for it, but I'd much rather get one of the new Pentax lenses before a new camera system.

I agree and I think pretty much every MF user has a secondary rig for those situations you described. I look at my MF rig as a specialized kit that I use when I have the time to carefully plan a shot. For everything else, including traveling, I use the 35mm rig.

I personally am looking at the A7R II as a replacement of my Nikon rig. There's no real reason for me to lug around something that's 70% as big as my MF kit for image quality that is delivered by something far smaller. In this case, the Sony.

[torger]

The high resolution 135 lenses are monsters though in terms of size and weight, so with lens I think the difference overall difference in size compared to an DSLR is minor. Only if we start seeing lenses that make use of BSI and are more symmetrical and tech-cam like we could see something seriously more compact with maintained or even increased image quality. That won't happen though as general purpose photography needs wide apertures and then you loose the ability to design small lightweight optics which is also sharp.

In the shorter term I think the A7rII will be strongest with adapters and Canon and Zeiss lenses. Just hope that the quality of adapters will be there, it's been shaky so far.

[ndevlin]

...For 7 years the world is stuck in a stagnant economy and it effects the professional and consumer markets for every dollar, pound, euro, yen, peso etc. spent...

BC, my question was more whether you had a sense of how much market penetration HB still has amongst pros you know and whether they are, like you, just running on 7-10 year old gear that is perfectly fine and has paid for itself 10x over, or are people buying new stuff?

No question the pro market is nowhere near the lifeblood of the MF industry that it used to be.  I'm more curious whether there's any real blood left there at all? No young pro should be spending $30K on a new MF camera today. They should buy motion, and video skills, and the help of good publicists or something. 

The other interesting thing is your perception of the slow economy. I hear that all over, have no doubt it's true (especially if I drive through places like upstate NY), but I just don't see it where I am.  Photography kind of sucks in a lot of ways, commercially here too, from what people tell me, but mostly for structural reasons around image purchase/use.

The one sure thing is the field is changing. And fast. Gear, the work, everything.  Glad I don't have to pay the bills with it.

- N.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I am a bit optimistic, the Batis line of lenses holds some promise.

On the adcapter front I don´t know, making a precision adapter should be trivial. No reason adapters can hold say 5 micron precision.

Best regards
Erik

The high resolution 135 lenses are monsters though in terms of size and weight, so with lens I think the difference overall difference in size compared to an DSLR is minor. Only if we start seeing lenses that make use of BSI and are more symmetrical and tech-cam like we could see something seriously more compact with maintained or even increased image quality. That won't happen though as general purpose photography needs wide apertures and then you loose the ability to design small lightweight optics which is also sharp.

In the shorter term I think the A7rII will be strongest with adapters and Canon and Zeiss lenses. Just hope that the quality of adapters will be there, it's been shaky so far.

[paulmoorestudio]

a quick reminder of where we came from... it was not that long ago I was shooting my location shots with a zoom roll film back, I could shoot 645 or larger... at the time I really did not think there was that much difference in final image quality between a 6x6 shot and a 6x9 and picked the format to suit the final proportion of the media it was headed for... my point is there is less difference now between a ff 42mp sony shot and a mf back on xyz.  The flexibility of this sony fe platform makes it a great professional tool and I for one am glad it is getting air time here.

[BernardLanguillier]

a quick reminder of where we came from... it was not that long ago I was shooting my location shots with a zoom roll film back, I could shoot 645 or larger... at the time I really did not think there was that much difference in final image quality between a 6x6 shot and a 6x9 and picked the format to suit the final proportion of the media it was headed for... my point is there is less difference now between a ff 42mp sony shot and a mf back on xyz.  The flexibility of this sony fe platform makes it a great professional tool and I for one am glad it is getting air time here.

Very true. Worse, considering image stabilization, EFC, AF accross the frame taken on the sensor,... you are in fact likely to get better image quality with the a7rII compared to the 50mp backs in a majority of real life situations when using top lenses such as the Zeiss Batis, especially in non controlled light.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

Very true. Worse, considering image stabilization, EFC, AF accross the frame taken on the sensor,... you are in fact likely to get better image quality with the a7rII compared to the 50mp backs in a majority of real life situations when using top lenses such as the Zeiss Batis, especially in non controlled light.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

 Either you are breaking your NDA, or you have no idea what a production A7RII + production Batis lens will actually do in real life.
 The peasant Pentacam and its more bourgeois refined colleagues may be snobs, but they are known quantities, people have sod images from them.
 What we are seeing here is that no existing camera can win against the camera of the imagination, as photographers are nothing if not artists

 Best regards from the land of the wine guzzling and cheese eating surrender monkeys

Edmund

[lelouarn]

I also have my doubts that Sony will enter the MF market. BUT, why the heck did they develop their 50Mpix MF sensor then ? Just to sell it as a chip ? To test the waters and see how big a market MF is ? Sounds a bit strange.

So, my vote says "yes", for perhaps an A7R on MF-steroids.

[BernardLanguillier]

Either you are breaking your NDA, or you have no idea what a production A7RII + production Batis lens will actually do in real life.

Actual tests will show, but I don't see why I would be very far off based on the various reports I hear.

Cheers,
Bernard

[ddolde]

Sony make a medium format camera?  This is absurd.  Can't people be happy with what they have ? 

[EricWHiss]

All I know and care about is that every time I open a file from my MF rig, I get astonished by it. I don't have remotely the same feeling from the files form my 35mm rig.

I agree with this as well. I even still marvel at my now very old Phase p20 shots with my Rollei 6008AF, not just my 80mp AFi-ii12.     I do think bigger can be better.  It would be fantastic to see 5 axis stabilization in a MFDB.

[Chris Livsey]

I also have my doubts that Sony will enter the MF market. BUT, why the heck did they develop their 50Mpix MF sensor then ?

They called the MF digital sellers, and three of them agreed to tak pre-orders, worked out a profit margin and made them. Or, the sellers approached them, singly or as a group and asked/offered development money/pre-order guarantees and it was worth it financially now/ or future possible internal use.

There are many scenarios possible and I have avoided the world domination of camera sensors as a possible.

[buckshot]

My feeling is Sony will do something with MF, just not sure what. Maybe they'll surprise us all.

Jim

P.S. Here's an idea - every 5 minutes I hear that HB are looking for new owners - maybe Sony should just buy them and be done with it. That will give them the system they need to get up and running and, at the same time, allow them to keep their sensor technology to themselves.

[EricWHiss]

I don't see Sony going into MF, but I've been wrong before.   

Also with regard to HB, I think they got another years worth of run from their financiers …. but will their new Lusso (rebadged sony A7R at $12k) save them?

[Chris Livsey]

Wandering further OT  I wonder why HB don't take the wood grip fixation they have to make a H system grip in wood?

[Chris Livsey]

A solid wood battery holder?

Well no, obviously the current "rubber" grip isn't solid rubber there is a battery in the middle. I was thinking of a battery covered (encased) in a lovingly handcrafted, individually selected, ethically sourced wood  At a price