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Author Topic: When will Sony enter medium format market?  (Read 33351 times)

Paul2660

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2015, 04:43:32 pm »

It's OK to dream. But it's pretty much all driven by a market economy.  That's just the way of business  profit and loss.

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synn

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2015, 04:58:14 pm »

There's a lot of hypocrisy here as usual. If the market is too small and no one should bother trying, why were everyone and their grandma championing pentax? And even with pentax entering the fray with mainstream distribution channels as well, have they overtook phase yet?

There is a market for this gear at the price it is being sold at the current prices and as much as I respect the pros here, just because you don't want to drop 5 figures on a stills only camera doesn't mean nobody else does. Someone clearly is (including the absurd amounts Leica charges for their barely MF camera) and no company in the world would continually upgrade their product line of no one is buying them. Just look at the superbike market where the bottom fell out for many years and all we got was bold new stickers every year until this year.

Back to the point, I am sure the market is there for Sony to create. The key is differentiation, not sticker price. There are buyers for every product at every sticker price.
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yashima

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2015, 05:10:17 pm »

I agree with synn sentiment, one does not succeed simply by trying to gain marketshare, but create a whole new demand for a new product category.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 05:14:22 pm by yashima »
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JV

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2015, 05:41:31 pm »

...including the absurd amounts Leica charges for their barely MF camera...

The Leica S2 is $25,400 for a 30x45 sensor, the Phase One XF IQ3 50MP is $40,990 for a 33x44 sensor...

No offense but an insignificant difference in sensor size it seems to me for a big difference in price...

Obviously both prices are completely insane when you compare with the Pentax 645Z.
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synn

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2015, 05:44:35 pm »

My entire credo 40 kit is a fraction of the price of the S2 body. Your point is?
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EricWHiss

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2015, 05:45:07 pm »

Does anyone know how many Pentax 645D and 645Z have sold?  
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JV

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2015, 05:48:39 pm »

My entire credo 40 kit is a fraction of the price of the S2 body. Your point is?

My point is that what you say might have been true for CCD sensors, it certainly is no longer true CMOS sensors...
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synn

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2015, 05:56:36 pm »

My point is that what you say might have been true for CCD sensors, it certainly is no longer true CMOS sensors...

The S2 is CCD. And for CMOS, there is an option at 4 figures, which is the pentax.
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JV

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2015, 06:21:47 pm »

The S2 is CCD. And for CMOS, there is an option at 4 figures, which is the pentax.

The S2 (Typ 006) CCD is now called S-E (and has a slightly different look) and is being sold for $14K. 

The S2 Typ 007 is the new (and delayed and hopelessly late to the game) CMOS S2. 
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JV

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2015, 06:30:11 pm »

If Leica can sell a Q at 4200 US$ with a good 24mp FF sensor, Sony will be able to sell a RX2 with a great 50mp larger sensor for 5,000 US$. How compact the 35mm lens could be is the only question that could threaten the concept IMHO.

So this is my bet too.

Cheers,
Bernard


Who would be the target audience though?  Landscape photographers looking for a backup camera?

My impression is that the RX1 was targeted at and adopted by street shooters.

Street shooters want compact cameras, they don't need 50MP and the price might be a no-go for a lot of them...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2015, 07:01:13 pm »

Who would be the target audience though?  Landscape photographers looking for a backup camera?

My impression is that the RX1 was targeted at and adopted by street shooters.

Street shooters want compact cameras, they don't need 50MP and the price might be a no-go for a lot of them...


Fair point.

Now, the Leica Q is 16.7mm wider and 14.6mm taller than the Sony Rx1. That is exactly 6mm more than the difference of sensor size btwn FF and "barely" MF. Its lens is also 23mm longer.

Sony could therefore most probably design a RX2 featuring a variant of the 50Mp sensor used in the P1 IQ350 with a 35mm lens opening at 2.8 that would be more compact than the Leica Q or at least not significantly larger.

So my view is that it would still target street shooters as well as anyone willing to own the "best" compact camera on the planet. It would sell well in mine is bigger than yours markets.

The question mark is AF speed.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 08:02:40 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Juanito

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2015, 08:21:53 pm »

Sony is a big ass company. They need big sales numbers to move the needle even a little. Medium Format really doesn't make sense for them. Sony is looking for the next Walkman. Something everyone has to have a la the iPhone. They used to be a player in the consumer electronics market, but now they're just an also ran. I don't see where MF is going to do anything for them in the context of their larger corporate goals.

Now, a smaller player in the market who's happy fulfilling a smaller niche could do well here. (Fuji anyone?) That's why you see Pentax and Leica in the MF space. They're happy moving a few thousand units. Sony needs to move millions of cameras to move the bottom line.

John

BernardLanguillier

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2015, 08:53:02 pm »

Sony is big but that very same reason was used until a year ago to explain us why Sony would never ever produce an MF sensor.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2015, 02:56:57 am »

Hi.

It has been renamed to S, Synn is right the S2 is CCD.

Best regards
Erik

The S2 (Typ 006) CCD is now called S-E (and has a slightly different look) and is being sold for $14K. 

The S2 Typ 007 is the new (and delayed and hopelessly late to the game) CMOS S2. 
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Kolor-Pikker

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2015, 05:41:21 am »

Regarding sensor sizes, digital tech has pretty much destroyed any concept of bigger = better, a mere rollout of a new feature on one camera and a 35mm sensor performs on par with a larger one, next few years it's the opposite again as scaling catches up. I wonder how much sense it makes to continue to talk about sensor size like it actually matters anymore, performance wise...

If BSI turns out to be the magic bullet a lot of people are making it out to be right now, does Sony even need a camera with the 33x44 sensor in it, if it'll end up performing about the same as the A7RII? If it achieves performance parity, then it would render the MF option a novelty, at least until BSI makes it into medium format.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 05:43:09 am by Kolor-Pikker »
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synn

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2015, 05:49:56 am »

Regarding sensor sizes, digital tech has pretty much destroyed any concept of bigger = better, a mere rollout of a new feature on one camera and a 35mm sensor performs on par with a larger one, next few years it's the opposite again as scaling catches up. I wonder how much sense it makes to continue to talk about sensor size like it actually matters anymore, performance wise...

If BSI turns out to be the magic bullet a lot of people are making it out to be right now, does Sony even need a camera with the 33x44 sensor in it, if it'll end up performing about the same as the A7RII? If it achieves performance parity, then it would render the MF option a novelty, at least until BSI makes it into medium format.

If bigger isn't better, why are we bothering with full frame? Everyone should move on to RX 100s.
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torger

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2015, 06:03:49 am »

If bigger isn't better, why are we bothering with full frame? Everyone should move on to RX 100s.

There's a rule of diminishing returns. In theory, with very sharp lenses and much deeper full wells than we have today we could drop down to RX 100 size and get just as good image quality, but it isn't possible today.

However 135 fullframe has managed closing in on MF, both thanks to sensor technology but also new lens designs like Zeiss Otus. MF still has an edge on lenses and probably will have for many years.

Digital has changed the rules of format size importance, it was different when all formats shared the same image "sensor" ie film, to get more resolution and less noise you needed more film area. With digital there is the possibility to reduce pixel size, reduce noise and increase well depth to compensate. Lens manufacturing technology has also made it possible to make smaller lenses sharper.
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synn

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2015, 06:06:11 am »

All I know and care about is that every time I open a file from my MF rig, I get astonished by it. I don't have remotely the same feeling from the files form my 35mm rig.

This is my very personal opinion and I am entitled to it.
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eronald

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2015, 06:12:45 am »

All I know and care about is that every time I open a file from my MF rig, I get astonished by it. I don't have remotely the same feeling from the files form my 35mm rig.

This is my very personal opinion and I am entitled to it.

What happened to you? Your career take off or you find the love of your life or something? You sound much more reasoned.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 06:15:00 am by eronald »
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hjulenissen

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Re: When will Sony enter medium format market?
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2015, 06:13:04 am »

Sony is a big ass company. They need big sales numbers to move the needle even a little. Medium Format really doesn't make sense for them. Sony is looking for the next Walkman.
So why then did they release the RX1? A complex, expensive product that didn't have the slightest chance of becoming the "next walkman"?

The masses probably want convenience, portability, "always works", low cost. They are covered nicely with cellphones (or a continually larger percentage of them will be as cellphone tech improves).

The slightly more demanding users (but still large numbers) perhaps wants specs like "lots of zoom", "4k", "slow-motion". I'd say that the RX100M4/RX10M2 hit spot-on.

So why are Sony meddling with MF sensors, RX1, A7rII and the like? Perhaps they want "halo" products. Perhaps they need to test concepts in small scale/high margin before hitting the volume products. Perhaps they have enthusiasts among their staff? Anyways, if they dared to do the RX1, I'd say that doing an "RX0.1" featuring the MF sensor seems _possible_.  

-h
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