When will Sony enter medium format market?

[Kolor-Pikker]

I visit SonyAlphaRumors semi-regularly, so I just happened to remember this tidbit here: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-interview-at-dc-watch-says-no-interchangeable-medium-format-system-camera-to-come-yet-new-a-mount-stuff-will-come/
Straight from the horses mouth - Sony digital imaging manager says "no" to interchangeable medium format to "concentrate on the A and E-mount systems"

While this was 6 months ago, I think it'll be a longer while yet before Sony sees their current systems fleshed out enough to think about other cameras, the FE system is only just hitting its stride with the recent release of the A7RII and all those nice lenses.

If they were to enter this space, what could they offer in terms of lenses? Sony has Zeiss backing them up on lens production and even that has turned out to take sweet time, and as far as I know Zeiss doesn't manufacture MF glass, so it would be quite the wind-up for them to shift gears like that. If they go the pre-existing lens route, whose lenses would they license? There aren't many MF lenses designed for mirrorless cameras, besides maybe the Mamiya 7 and tech cam lenses as being the most common. Chances are it's a system they'll have to build from scratch.

[synn]

If you are unaware of zeiss' MF optics history, I suggest that you spend some time on Wikipedia.

[Kolor-Pikker]

If you are unaware of zeiss' MF optics history, I suggest that you spend some time on Wikipedia.

History doesn't sell though, for a reasonable price anyway. Zeiss has made one-off lenses of every size under the sun, including some telescopic monstrosities, but what I'm talking about are current mass-produced lenses designed specifically for mirrorless cameras (so the Hasselblad V lenses don't count, different optical formulas required). If it's going to come packaged with a Sony camera, the very brand of mass consumer products, it also has to be lens design Zeiss can commit to for mass production, not those few lenses they made that one time for aerial photography or something. A complete camera system also needs lenses everywhere from 24~200mm, at the very least, including a few zooms. And are those old lens designs even relevant anymore for digital photography? It's going to have to be done from scratch no matter how you look at it. Zeiss does have the expertise, I'm not arguing that, but expertise costs money that Sony won't be willing to invest in a system they don't know will sell.

[BernardLanguillier]

History doesn't sell though, for a reasonable price anyway. Zeiss has made one-off lenses of every size under the sun, including some telescopic monstrosities, but what I'm talking about are current mass-produced lenses designed specifically for mirrorless cameras (so the Hasselblad V lenses don't count, different optical formulas required). If it's going to come packaged with a Sony camera, the very brand of mass consumer products, it also has to be lens design Zeiss can commit to for mass production, not those few lenses they made that one time for aerial photography or something. A complete camera system also needs lenses everywhere from 24~200mm, at the very least, including a few zooms.

I wouldn't bet against Zeiss's ability to design a brilliant MF lens and to mass produce it to outstanding quality standards.

Some of the recent V lenses are very very good, including their legendary 40mm of which I own a sample, not to mention the Otus series.

They have more than proven their abilities.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Kolor-Pikker]

I wouldn't bet against Zeiss's ability to design a brilliant MF lens and to mass produce it to outstanding quality standards.

Some of the recent V lenses are very very good, including their legendary 40mm of which I own a sample, not to mention the Otus series.

They have more than proven their abilities.

Cheers,
Bernard

I fully agree, but this isn't about Zeiss though, it's about Sony.

Sony won't lift a finger unless there is an off-the-shelf solution available, or if they have nothing better to do.
In case you haven't forgotten the early FE lenses were rather lackluster, including the 28-70, 24-70 and 35/2.8 (not a bad lens per say but f/2.8 ). The 55/1.8 is great, but it came out a long while later, as did the 70-200, but then all 70-200 lenses seem to be inherently great.

They had to fall back on using adapters for the A system, and through third parties to adapt just about every other system to compensate for a lack of native lenses. What would be the point of a mirrorless MF camera that had to fall back on gigantic 645 or 6x6 glass that neither takes advantage of the reduced flange distance nor the smaller format? At least on the A7 you could have mounted rangefinder lenses early on.

[BernardLanguillier]

I misunderstood your point, sorry.

I agree that Sony is not likely to release a MF system.

My view is that they could release an RX2 with their 50mp mini-MF sensor and that would use a Zeiss designed 35mm equivalent lens opening at f2.8.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Kevin Raber]

So, my question is (knowing the camera market pretty well) is why would they?

The company that should be watched is Fuji.  If HB goes away will Fuji continue the camera and lenses they have been making for HB?

Also, Fuji has dropped hints that they will consider the MF market and if you google around you may even come up with some of the so called considered prototype designs.

The MF market is an interesting market  and presents challenges for chips design, optics, AF etc.  The costs of entering a market would be high.

All these guys are asking speculative questions - who needs it, who will buy it, how much will they pay, and finally if you get through the first 3 parts of the question what does the customer want? 

Kevin Raber

[Doug Peterson]

...Sony is not likely to release a MF system.

My view is that they could release an RX2 with their 50mp mini-MF sensor and that would use a Zeiss designed 35mm equivalent lens opening at f2.8.

This is my best guess as well.

Releasing a system in a new format size is a wide-spread commitment. It requires a range of glass and accessories in addition to the body/sensor.

Putting a larger sensor to a scaled-up version of their RX is likely more work than it intuitively would seem. But it's likely an order of magnitude easier than developing a new system.

[bcooter]

So, my question is (knowing the camera market pretty well) is why would they?

The company that should be watched is Fuji.  If HB goes away will Fuji continue the camera and lenses they have been making for HB?
Kevin Raber

This is one of the strangest quotes I've seen on a respected site in a long time.  

Is there something you know your not telling, is it personal speculation, speculation from a competitor, can it be substantiated by multiple sources?

I expect these quotes from a certain group of interested hobbyists that regularly post on this site with guesses and random thought in the dp review style of discussion, but not from someone "knowing the camera market pretty well".

Maybe it's just my impression, but I've always felt that in the medium format segment reporting, this site was Phase 1 centric, but like the rest of the pundits, that's just my impression.

IMO

BC

[ndevlin]

BC, is it your sense that people are still buying HB gear as opposed to just using existing gear and renting? 

As for a MF cam from Fuji or Sony, it would have to be a corporate pride thing rather than a profit centre.  Fuji has the history and, it seems, a real connection to photography, which makes them a pride-candidate, but-for the lack of a sensor (no small thing).  Sony corporately doesn't understand or give a crap about photography qua photography, has no history, but has the sensor-tech. And wants to dominate the industry.

Fuji very proudly uses their own sensors.  So I don't feel a mash-up.  But one of these companies might do it. I would be surprised if prototypes haven't been drawn if not built.  It's just a business-case thing, I suspect. The industry is changing really quite fast, and these companies are more concerned with surviving than making.1% of photographers happy.

But we can live in hope...

- N.

[eronald]

This is one of the strangest quotes I've seen on a respected site in a long time.  

Is there something you know your not telling, is it personal speculation, speculation from a competitor, can it be substantiated by multiple sources?

I expect these quotes from a certain group of interested hobbyists that regularly post on this site with guesses and random thought in the dp review style of discussion, but not from someone "knowing the camera market pretty well".

Maybe it's just my impression, but I've always felt that in the medium format segment reporting, this site was Phase 1 centric, but like the rest of the pundits, that's just my impression.

IMO

BC

J,

One always hears the juiciest rumors from the competition's side, and not from the horse's mouth; rumors about Hassy have been circulating for years, and as they are owned by private capital a sale is always on the table because this is how these firms work. I might have hypothetically heard some rumors too, but one does assess them as to credibility; remember the rumors about Pentax abandoning the MF market, and how that went down?

Hassy have just released an aerial survey camera with synched exposure capability, and special lens versions, so they seem to be digging in for the long haul in this market.

In Japan Fuji sell the Hassy under their own brand. Fuji used to own the "marriage" market, with studios buying all their gear, MF film, modded Nikon cameras with Fuji sensors with the DR for the bride's dress, dyesub pictro printers to make the albums, and even rebranded large format Epson printers with Fuji branded paper. If any of this market subsists, then Fuji have a vested interest in keeping a "pro" camera with MF cachet in their catalog. It's being a camera they already co-manufacture would make this easier, of course


Edmund

[synn]

BC, is it your sense that people are still buying HB gear as opposed to just using existing gear and renting? 

As for a MF cam from Fuji or Sony, it would have to be a corporate pride thing rather than a profit centre.  Fuji has the history and, it seems, a real connection to photography, which makes them a pride-candidate, but-for the lack of a sensor (no small thing).  Sony corporately doesn't understand or give a crap about photography qua photography, has no history, but has the sensor-tech. And wants to dominate the industry.

Fuji very proudly uses their own sensors.  So I don't feel a mash-up.  But one of these companies might do it. I would be surprised if prototypes haven't been drawn if not built.  It's just a business-case thing, I suspect. The industry is changing really quite fast, and these companies are more concerned with surviving than making.1% of photographers happy.

But we can live in hope...

- N.

Nick, I agree with you more often than not, but I have to disagree here. Sony does care about photographers. Every single change in the A7R II is made based on the complaints photographers had for the first version.

Can't remember the last time canikon did that.

[Paul2660]

I feel that Sony has been in the MF market now for 2 years or more, ever since the HB 50c and Phase One IQ250 and Pentax 645z were announced.  If they wanted to move to that market, I feel the RX1 platform would have been modified and released with a fixed lens but it's not happened and SAR has been pretty moot on the subject as of late.  Sony tends to get new products out sooner than later where they feel there is a market.

Personally, I can't see a Fuji MF solution, but Fuji has done strange things in the past.

I also don't see the MF market getting larger, if anything smaller.  New 35mm entries are coming pretty fast now, and if the new BIS CMOS allows better movements, that would be great, however I feel that photographers working with movements are in a minority and not in the headlights of the camera/chip developers who are chasing the "social media instant gratification" and YouTube Video needs now more than anything.  I understand, you have to go where the market is.  

By purchasing a tech camera, and various lenses, I have placed myself in even a smaller minority.  I don't see that much difference in images I have taken with the Phase CMOS vs the Phase CCD's, I have used and I know from personal experience the limitations of the current 50Mp CMOS chip with movements on a tech camera.  I do know also that Phase One did a very good job on the color cast corrections for the 50Mp chip, but in my work, the 1:3 crop is a huge negative. Thus I hope that Sony will continue their forward march and create a BIS style full frame MF CMOS or even a 1:1 chip that will allow cleaner movements with the current generation of tech glass. Or maybe it will come from Dalsa, as I believe they do make CMOS chips for other applications.  

Paul Caldwell

[EricWHiss]

The MF market is small, actually very small compared to the other formats.   To develop a new camera costs millions and in some cases 10's of millions, but yet the market for said camera in the hundreds to low thousands per year.   If you have to develop a completely new system of sensor, cameras and lenses then ….  well its a pretty high barrier to entry.   On top of that all the marketing research shows the trend is toward smaller and smaller cameras, with just a small percentage of photographers using MF and larger formats.  In that last group, some are using film or other alternative process like wet plate and won't necessarily go for MF digital.   It's a lot easier to start with a platform and improve it than to start completely from scratch.   

[Gel]

The market may be small, that's because it's expensive. Make it affordable and like pushing on a string, people will move from one format to another.

[bcooter]

Must admit I wasn't particularly surprised by this comment given Mr Raber's previous life as a P1 employee.

But was it wishful thinking, or irritation that Hasselblad are still around and in competition with P1, or just the kind of internet noise that is usually associated with lesser photography forums?

Or there again, perhaps Mr Raber really does know something that we don't?

I don't know Mr. Raber well and believe he is a passionate enthusiast, though I must admit I always appreciate Michael's reporting and reviews.

Like everyone Michael has his favorites, but with that in mind he has always been upfront in telling a warts and all story.

Michael never took the burn down the village attitude, but he was direct and asked things that would make most ceo's blush.

I personally thought the two reports on the site of the XF camera showed bias.   Kevin can be forgiven because as I said he is very enthused about equipment, the design and production.    He can't be faulted for that.

The second article from the East Coast Phase One retail salesperson  was just a fluff piece. 

Sure there was some good information, but honestly it was pure PR with an advertising tag line for the ending of the article.

That one made me shake my head.

IMO

BC

[hubell]

Must admit I wasn't particularly surprised by this comment given Mr Raber's previous life as a P1 employee.

But was it wishful thinking, or irritation that Hasselblad are still around and in competition with P1, or just the kind of internet noise that is usually associated with lesser photography forums?

Or there again, perhaps Mr Raber really does know something that we don't?

Whatever the motivation, the words are particularly inappropriate coming from the "Co-Publisher" of a site that has prided itself on not being a rumor site about future releases of camera equipment and using good ethics in business. With the Internet, words like his quickly become accepted and repeated as FACTS. I am sure Mr. Raber regrets his words.

[JV]

The second article from the East Coast Phase One retail salesperson  was just a fluff piece. 

I tried to get through it twice, couldn't do it... badly written and too many marketing wishes presented as facts...

Regarding both articles, I feel that they better would have been left unpublished...

The same for the comment in this thread regarding Hasselblad...

[bcooter]

Nick I could write 5 pages on what I think has happened and will continue to happen to the professional image making industry, but short answer, (beyond the internet, digital phone cameras, social media, twitterverse, facebookers, utubers, instagramers) I think it comes down to this.

For 7 years the world is stuck in a stagnant economy and it effects the professional and consumer markets for every dollar, pound, euro, yen, peso etc. spent.

So it would make sense that more professionals rent specialty cameras than buy, but that's a guess because our studios don't run the standard business model.

I am careful on what we buy and rent very little equipment, own 99% of what we use, but I've always been that way.     

Today I wouldn't spend $30,000 for a still only camera, but will on motion cameras, actually given what I now own probably wouldn't do that either.

The smartest buy I made was early on going with RED (not because I love the cameras) but because they were up to todays specs 5 years ago.

Mine keep running and running and I will continue to use them until they stop.

Looking at this I guess I really didn't answer your question so I guess some people buy some people rent, but the market is probably squeezed from where it was in 2007.

Personally I think the professional camera of the future will be something like the Sony A series.   Separate cameras for separate functions.  One for still and motion low light, one for high resolution stills, one for motion high resolution all three in a package for less than 20k with an adaptable lens mount.

IMO

BC

BC, is it your sense that people are still buying HB gear as opposed to just using existing gear and renting? 

As for a MF cam from Fuji or Sony, it would have to be a corporate pride thing rather than a profit centre.  Fuji has the history and, it seems, a real connection to photography, which makes them a pride-candidate, but-for the lack of a sensor (no small thing).  Sony corporately doesn't understand or give a crap about photography qua photography, has no history, but has the sensor-tech. And wants to dominate the industry.

Fuji very proudly uses their own sensors.  So I don't feel a mash-up.  But one of these companies might do it. I would be surprised if prototypes haven't been drawn if not built.  It's just a business-case thing, I suspect. The industry is changing really quite fast, and these companies are more concerned with surviving than making.1% of photographers happy.

But we can live in hope...

- N.

[yashima]

With all due respect, reference about current market economy, market size are not helpful/insightful, as for me, photography is an area of technology that is ripe to be disrupted.  I just feel mirrorless CMOS sensor could just be it. What might prevent it is the leadership at Sony. They possess huge amount of talent and technological prowess however just too big of a corporation to commit and move fast enough.