Topic: Raw CR2 vs. Raw DNG (Read 18652 times)

Rainer SLP · « **on:** June 11, 2015, 04:44:20 pm »

Hi,

Sorry to roll up such an old topic, but reading another forum the Pros amd Cons of the Native RAW files of the camera producers compared to the Adobe Universal RAW file *.DNG i just wnated to see what happens.

So I installed the latest Adobe DNG converter v9.0 and converted some files.

Opened then in C1 Pro v8.3 and found the following. Perhaps a mistake from my side while importing into C1 Pro, but I used in both cases for the CR2 and DNG file the generic camera profiles.

One example is from a simple EOS 100D and the other is from the 5D Mark III.

Adobe DNG as far as I can see darkens and processes already the files ... ¿? I am clueless. From my short experience I can only say that what Adobe DNG is presenting me, it was not the real ambient light as when I took the image and as far as I remember it ...

On the top is the CR2 and the bottom the DNG. On the left the CR2 histogram and on the right the DNG histogram

Thanks for your comments.

PD. I read this topic from 2008 http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=26524.0

EOS 100D

http://astroforo.net/astro/ll/RAWvsDNG-100D.jpg

EOS 5D MarkIII

http://astroforo.net/astro/ll/RAWvsDNG-5dmiii.jpg

AlterEgo · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2015, 05:00:02 pm »

Quote from: Rainer SLP on June 11, 2015, 04:44:20 pm

to see what happens.

what happens is defined by software design

1) Adobe designs their software (ACR/LR) so that it (ACR/LR) will yield the same result from a native raw and from lossless converted DNG provided that conversion was done by Adobe tools with the matching version (but if converted by some prev. versions the identical result is not a guarantee)

2) some other vendors either do not make an effort to deliver identical results or simply do it specifically in different manner for whatever reason or even refuse to work with DNGs detected as "converted"

so why do you need to convert to DNG ? unless there are specific workflow needs simply don't ... if there are specific needs then archive the originals the way your camera firmware produced them and simply use DNGs as an intermediate format like .TIFF but better... that's it.

Rainer SLP · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2015, 05:09:53 pm »

Quote from: AlterEgo on June 11, 2015, 05:00:02 pm

what happens is defined by software design

1) Adobe designs their software (ACR/LR) so that it (ACR/LR) will yield the same result from a native raw and from lossless converted DNG provided that conversion was done by Adobe tools with the matching version (but if converted by some prev. versions the identical result is not a guarantee)

2) some other vendors either do not make an effort to deliver identical results or simply do it specifically in different manner for whatever reason or even refuse to work with DNGs detected as "converted"

so why do you need to convert to DNG ? unless there are specific workflow needs simply don't ... if there are specific needs then archive the originals the way your camera firmware produced them and simply use DNGs as an intermediate format like .TIFF but better... that's it.

Thanks AlterEgo

I made this test by pure curiosity after reading the Pros of DNG.

When I started I have always worked my scans from film in *.TIF format and when I started with digital I always used the native RAWs. My first C1 Pro version was v4.X something ...

As I still have some old *.TIF RAWs from my first EOS 1Ds which can not be opened by C1 Pro 8.3 I thought that might be the solution ... Will do a test with those files to see what happens ...

As said before pure curiosity doing this exercise, but did not convince me.

AlterEgo · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2015, 05:47:05 pm »

Quote from: Rainer SLP on June 11, 2015, 05:09:53 pm

As I still have some old *.TIF RAWs from my first EOS 1Ds which can not be opened by C1 Pro 8.3 I thought that might be the solution ...

which is strange as that camera is supported by C1... did you ask P1 tech support or may be ask people @ their U2U forum = http://forum.phaseone.com/En/

Rainer SLP · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2015, 05:55:10 pm »

Quote from: AlterEgo on June 11, 2015, 05:47:05 pm

which is strange as that camera is supported by C1... did you ask P1 tech support or may be ask people @ their U2U forum = http://forum.phaseone.com/En/

Yes I did and the latest version of C1 Pro which reads the RAW *.TIF from the EOS 1Ds is v6.4.5

AlterEgo · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2015, 07:19:32 pm »

Quote from: Rainer SLP on June 11, 2015, 05:55:10 pm

Yes I did and the latest version of C1 Pro which reads the RAW *.TIF from the EOS 1Ds is v6.4.5

ouch ! - to P1 karma

john beardsworth · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2015, 04:21:46 am »

Quote from: Rainer SLP on June 11, 2015, 05:09:53 pm

I made this test by pure curiosity after reading the Pros of DNG.

When I started I have always worked my scans from film in *.TIF format and when I started with digital I always used the native RAWs. My first C1 Pro version was v4.X something ...

As I still have some old *.TIF RAWs from my first EOS 1Ds which can not be opened by C1 Pro 8.3 I thought that might be the solution ... Will do a test with those files to see what happens ...

As said before pure curiosity doing this exercise, but did not convince me.

But don't be misled by your one test, Rainer. All it actually demonstrates is that C1 doesn't support DNGs as first class citizens, and that's their business decision.

digitaldog · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2015, 10:14:59 am »

Quote from: john beardsworth on June 12, 2015, 04:21:46 am

But don't be misled by your one test, Rainer. All it actually demonstrates is that C1 doesn't support DNGs as first class citizens, and that's their business decision.

Exactly! The same could be true for TIFF which Adobe controls and provides the proper spec's to follow. Doesn't mean everyone can or does.

Rainer SLP · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2015, 11:22:10 am »

Thanks Andrew and John,

What I will do now is play with some old 1-Ds files with the C1 Pro version 6.4.5 on an older PC, eg. convert those RAW *.TIF into DNG and compare them in the version 6.4.5 from C1 Pro and see what happens there

john beardsworth · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2015, 01:43:52 pm »

It's hard to see what you'll learn, Rainer. You're not testing DNG, just proving that C1 have decided not to take advantage of the DNG format.

Rainer SLP · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2015, 04:21:33 pm »

Quote from: john beardsworth on June 12, 2015, 01:43:52 pm

It's hard to see what you'll learn, Rainer. You're not testing DNG, just proving that C1 have decided not to take advantage of the DNG format.

Thanks

Is there something I can do in C1 Pro when opening DNG files to avoid that darkeing or applying of saturation or whatever it is ?

I have been using DNG Workspace and DNG Neutral settings in the color tab. I will open the files on PS to see what the Adobe Raw Converter does with same images in CR2 and DNG.

jjj · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2015, 04:24:31 pm »

Quote from: Rainer SLP on June 11, 2015, 05:55:10 pm

Yes I did and the latest version of C1 Pro which reads the RAW *.TIF from the EOS 1Ds is v6.4.5

So has C1 stopped supporting older cameras like the 1Ds?

jjj · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2015, 04:52:16 pm »

Quote from: Rainer SLP on June 12, 2015, 04:43:30 pm

Yes jjj, as I wrote the latest version of C1 Pro supporting the RAW *.TIF files from the 1Ds is 6.4.5 ...

I just wanted to clarify they really were doing something that dumb.
Another reason why I would never use C1 no matter how good it is at processing, they currently can't be bothered to support cameras I may buy or have. Even if they did, they then may drop support for it in later versions, so in 10-15 years time when one is doing a retrospective an exhibition of past work, one won't be able to re-edit or maybe even re-open files that were processed in a previous version of C1. A version that will probably not by then run on the OS being used on your PC/Mac.

Rainer SLP · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2015, 04:56:40 pm »

IMPORTANT

Sorry everybody.

I mixed up 2 things and it is NOT TRUE that v 8.3 does NOT support the old RAW *.TIF files

IT DOES OPEN THESE OLD RAW FILES FROM MY 1Ds

Apologies to everybody for confusing things here.

Rainer SLP · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2015, 04:59:28 pm »

I mixed up the fact that one of my old 32bit PCs does not run with C1 Pro v8.3 but the latest version which supports 32bit opertaing systems like WIN XP Pro is the 6.4.5

Again APOLOGIES

jjj · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2015, 05:32:22 pm »

Ah, I thought it bit odd that C1 did not retain backwards compatibility.

Bart_van_der_Wolf · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2015, 04:54:43 am »

Quote from: Rainer SLP on June 12, 2015, 04:56:40 pm

IMPORTANT

Sorry everybody.

I mixed up 2 things and it is NOT TRUE that v 8.3 does NOT support the old RAW *.TIF files

IT DOES OPEN THESE OLD RAW FILES FROM MY 1Ds

Apologies to everybody for confusing things here.

Okay. You had me confused for a short moment, because Capture One even supports my early Powershot G3 Raw images (see attached), so I could not believe that they would drop an already implemented Raw conversion feature for a more professional camera model. Tethering might be an (OS driver) issue, but Raw conversion is already implemented and therefore (if done well) requires little maintenance. C1 version 8.3 even has (preliminary) support for the Canon EOS 5DS / 5DS R, which isn't even released to the public yet.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart_van_der_Wolf · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2015, 05:32:15 am »

Quote from: jjj on June 12, 2015, 04:52:16 pm

I just wanted to clarify they really were doing something that dumb.
Another reason why I would never use C1 no matter how good it is at processing, they currently can't be bothered to support cameras I may buy or have.

Hi Jeremy,

Sorry but this sounds a lot like C1 bashing without much basis for it.

Quote

Even if they did, they then may drop support for it in later versions, so in 10-15 years time when one is doing a retrospective an exhibition of past work, one won't be able to re-edit or maybe even re-open files that were processed in a previous version of C1. A version that will probably not by then run on the OS being used on your PC/Mac.

Nothing else than FUD spreading. How is this any different from all the other Raw converters, and what evidence do you have that they would drop support, other than for old Operating Systems (for which you can then keep using the older version)?

Maybe it's because you got caught in the Adobe DNG propaganda, and C1 indeed doesn't waste much of their resources on whatever Adobe sees fit to change in the file format that requires recoding part of all other converters? C1's mission is not to help Adobe sell more products, but to sell more Phase One products. Would it be nice to have better DNG support? Sure it wouldn't hurt the users of such, but there are many more non-DNG camera Raws out there than there are native DNG only ones. Even Pentax offers a choice of Raw formats in (some? of) their cameras, if I'm not mistaken (PEF or DNG). Then there are Foveon sensors, which require a totally different kind of Raw conversion, and support for that is not widespread either, due to small market share which makes the cost / benefit ratio unattractive for software developers.

Anyway, this thread turned out to be about a non-issue. Older, already implemented Raw formats are still being supported.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart_van_der_Wolf · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2015, 05:47:18 am »

Quote from: john beardsworth on June 12, 2015, 01:43:52 pm

It's hard to see what you'll learn, Rainer. You're not testing DNG, just proving that C1 have decided not to take advantage of the DNG format.

Hi John,

Apparently Phase One do not feel that they would benefit from better support for Adobe's DNG file wrapper, where it would be a benefit for Adobe. So why would they help Adobe, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense?

For software developers it's a pain in the rear end having to continuously adapt/test/debug their software whenever an other party decides to change things. Besides, lowerering the threshold specifically for people using Adobe software (a Raw converter competitor) doesn't seem logical either.

Again, it would be nice if they added better support for DNGs to Capture One, but it would mostly help Adobe, and not Phase One, so I don't expect it to happen any time soon.

Cheers,
Bart

digitaldog · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2015, 10:15:06 am »

Quote from: BartvanderWolf on June 13, 2015, 05:47:18 am

Apparently Phase One do not feel that they would benefit from better support for Adobe's DNG file wrapper, where it would be a benefit for Adobe.

That's ridiculous, sorry. It doesn't do any good for Adobe, it does bad by the Phase One customer to provide a half-ass implantation. They should just fix their mess or remove all support for DNG! There's no middle ground that makes any sense.

Author Topic: Raw CR2 vs. Raw DNG (Read 18652 times)