Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Sony Kicks Butt  (Read 327093 times)

dreed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1506
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2015, 08:05:48 AM »

The question has no absolute relevance. For some people each of these is no more relevant than whether it comes with a a leather or synthetic neck strap.

Yes, these are missing items. But for me, none of them are a big deal. For others they might be.
...

Ok, indirectly I was asking how important you thought the omission of lossless raw files and you've pretty much answered that with "its not really necessary" (in your opinion of course.)
Logged

JackWinberg

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2015, 08:46:19 AM »

"Thinking what I would do if I were Sony – seeing that Nikon and Canon are on the metaphorical ropes, and that my (Sony’s) sales and market share is increasing steadily, is that I would blow the entire wad on a new super-high-end model. Hit the marketplace with the whole enchilada – 36-50MP, in-body sensor stabilization, and 4K video with in-body recording."

A quote from the May 19th "No Guts, No Glory" rantorial by Michael - which proved astoundingly prophetic!  The correlation between what Michael proposed and the new Sony A7RII is very high.  I know that Michael has deep roots into and bonds with the photographic industry, but...seeing the future?  Well done, Michael!!!
Logged

rogan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 174
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2015, 09:24:35 AM »

"Next : no USB3 Tethering. Well the camera costs 3200 $ and not 32000 $ as the MF backs . Maybe THAT is a reason ?"

Nikon's D800. D810, D750,d600, d610 and Canon's mk3 all have usb3 at the same price as the sony(or cheaper)

Sorry Stephan but they missed the boat there
Logged

Manoli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1407
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2015, 10:08:59 AM »

So tethering with a 42 mp file really isn't an option unless one frame per 3 minutes in acceptable.
Nikon's D800. D810, D750,d600, d610 and Canon's mk3 all have usb3 at the same price as the sony(or cheaper)

At the same price but not the same physical dimensions.
Entre-temps, the previous A7's all tether into C1 Pro fine ( even Lr with Sony's RCC). No reason why this one won't either, not even the extra 8MB file size.

At 3 minutes per shot, sounds to me more like you need a new IT man rather than a new cam.  ;D
Logged

NancyP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2188
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2015, 12:24:17 PM »

Yep, Sony did it.
I am not an early adapter of camera bodies, and this one would be used with third-party lenses I already have, so I shall need to see about an adapter (whether current adapters work - never know until someone (else) tests).
Stefan, you must be anxious to mate your 14-24 and 11-24 TS adapters to the new camera.

Their other offerings might not be of huge interest to most here, but  pocketable light purpose-built cameras such as the RX100# series have their place and are highly popular - camera of choice for hikers. Every once in a while I wonder about getting something even smaller than the Sigma DP2 Merrill.
Logged

Chris_Brown

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 925
  • Smile dammit!
    • Chris Brown Photography
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2015, 02:02:56 PM »

Yup. Sony missed a few boats...
– no uncompressed raw
– no USB3 tethering

Can anyone please explain why these two features were not included? It seems obvious to include them.
Logged
~ CB

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2236
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2015, 04:17:31 PM »

In my tech experience when "obvious" features are missing it's usually due to deliberate decision rather than accidental omission. Sony, along with the other camera makers, almost surely has genuine reasons—however strange or shortsighted or even belligerently irrational they may seem to us on the outside—for leaving stuff out. (Or for including "unnecessary" stuff.) The more hermetic the company's decision-making process, the stranger their decisions are likely to seem to us.

Overall I'm impressed with how much good stuff Sony has included in the A7rii. IMO the omissions are trivial in comparison. Of course we'll have to see how it all comes together in actual use…

-Dave-
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 04:30:13 PM by Telecaster »
Logged

hjulenissen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2053
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2015, 04:24:46 PM »

Can anyone please explain why these two features were not included? It seems obvious to include them.
I have seen credible speculation that the lossy raw is actually how their on-sensor ADC works. You get high DR and readout speeds that enable good EVF/"liveview"/CDAF/4k, but the compromise is that the ADC is inherently nonlinear.

The same people suggested that Nikon took a different approach with their D8x0, giving them lossless raw but (supposedly) less-than-perfect liveview and CDAF.

If this is true, I can understand the compromise made by Sony.

-h
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2015, 04:29:40 PM »

and for a last word - here something written by George Orwell. I think that  fits pretty nice.

“It struck me that perhaps a lot of the people you see walking about are dead. We say that a man's dead when his heart stops and not before. It seems a bit arbitrary. After all, parts of your body don't stop working - hair goes on growing for years, for instance. Perhaps a man really dies when his brain stops, when he loses the power to take in a new idea. Old Porteous is like that. Wonderfully learned, wonderfully good taste - but he's not capable of change. Just says the same things and thinks the same thoughts over and over again. There are a lot of people like that. Dead minds, stopped inside. Just keep moving backwards and forwards on the same little track, getting fainter all the time, like ghosts.”

― George Orwell, Coming Up for Air
Fits very nicely indeed.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.   Futt Futt Futt Photography

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2015, 04:42:22 PM »

Quote from: Michael from article
This stands in stark contrast with the rest of the industry that doles our new features slowly, an upgrade here, a tweak there, a new feature once a year or so. This is the norm for some companies… keep the development costs low, and keep selling new cameras with a bit of extra chrome and shiny wheels now and then to keep the faithful happy.
Yet I'm sure if Sony were the dominant player that is exactly what would happen. They used to very slightly un-cripple their £2-5k video cameras each year and have a huge price difference between the crippled cameras and the less crippled £20k+ cameras. This sort of behaviour is what annoyed Jim Jannard so much he started RED and is typical of dominant players in a market. Sony being the upstart in this area can afford to leapfrog with innovation rather than marginal tweak their range.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 04:44:23 PM by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.   Futt Futt Futt Photography

LKaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2015, 08:05:37 PM »

I have seen credible speculation that the lossy raw is actually how their on-sensor ADC works. You get high DR and readout speeds that enable good EVF/"liveview"/CDAF/4k, but the compromise is that the ADC is inherently nonlinear.

Note that the issue (correctly) identified here is "lossy" versus "lossless" raw files, and not what others have referred to as "uncompressed raw".  

I'd be disappointed if there were an inherent restriction on this as suggested above.  I really want few things out of a digital sensor, and clean lossless output is at the top of the list.  If that's the compromise for going mirrorless, then perhaps I'm not yet in the club.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 09:12:44 PM by LKaven »
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9719
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2015, 08:32:32 PM »

There are always pluses and minuses with any new camera. Since I'm not so wealthy that money is of no object, I always try to take into consideration the ramifications of new lens requirements for a new brand of camera.

I can't see much point in getting excited about improvements in certain new aspects of performance if certain disadvantages, or additional expenses, are not taken into consideration.

Having carried out my own tests regarding the difference between uncompressed 14 bit RAWs and compressed 12 bit RAWs with Nikon cameras, I tend to think the 11 bit compressed RAW of the A7R II will inevitably compromise the full benefits of a BSI sensor in respect of increased dynamic range in the deepest shadows.

If it's true that the full functionality of Canon lenses can be achieved through use of an adapter, then that's a huge advantage, but I wouldn't like to jump in before tests are available. Would there be AF fine tuning available for such 3rd party lenses, for example?

If there's also an adapter which allows full functionality of Nikkor lenses, that's another huge advantage. These are the issues which need to be fleshed out.
Logged

telyt

  • Guest
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2015, 09:58:36 PM »


If it's true that the full functionality of Canon lenses can be achieved through use of an adapter, then that's a huge advantage, but I wouldn't like to jump in before tests are available. Would there be AF fine tuning available for such 3rd party lenses, for example?

AF fine tuning is an artifact of the DSLR design/kludge.  Not needed at all when the AF is on the sensor.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 10:56:56 PM by wildlightphoto »
Logged

Zerg2905

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2015, 04:26:20 AM »

To me, this shows who is the real competitor for Canon. From the beginning, this was the main idea. Both camera makers (Canon / Sony) have their own line of sensors, R&D, industrial power etc. But the first part is crucial. Canon was / is just lazy, and satisfied with the $$$, but, I think, they can switch to "war mode" soon. Their latest products are showing signs of that. Sony knows (obviously), and it seems they are doing everything they can to exploit the momentum. Canon cameras MIGHT be considered inferior, but that "inferiority" has a tiny margin in real life, and it is related mainly to sensors. On the other hand, it is hard to match Canon's lenses lineup, and this level things. However, however, once that sensor matter is improved...photographers will benefit even more. IMHO
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9719
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2015, 06:27:36 AM »

AF fine tuning is an artifact of the DSLR design/kludge.  Not needed at all when the AF is on the sensor.

Thanks for that information, but I'm not sure it follows that autofocus with Canon lenses will either work perfectly or not at all, when using a Metabones adapter.

Having checked the Metabones website at http://www.metabones.com/products/details/mb-ef-e-bm3  I'm a bit alarmed to discover a long list of possible limitations when using a Canon lens with a Sony camera, as itemised below. Would all, or at least some of these limitations not apply to the A7R II?

Autofocus

"Autofocus is supported, with the following known limitations.
Autofocus speed is very slow and inadequate for most moving subjects. The autofocus speed is unfit for professional use for sure, and it would disappoint most enthusiasts.

Only Canon-branded lenses introduced in or after 2006 are officially supported. Autofocus may be disabled for older Canon lenses and most third-party lenses, including most Sigma, Tamron and Tokina lenses and all Contax N lenses modified by Conurus.

On NEX camera bodies in camcorder form factor (e.g. FS series), autofocus may be available only in photo mode but not in movie capture mode.

Continuous AF is not supported.

DMF mode (direct manual focus) is not supported.

For non-camcorder camera bodies (e.g. NEX-7), during movie capture, if the subject moves to a different distance, half-press the shutter release button to re-activate autofocus and lock onto the subject again. Since autofocus speed is slow, there may be visible disruption in the resulting footage.

The first two autofocus attempts are used to calibrate the lens and as a result may not lock successfully on the target. Half-press the shutter release button again and autofocus will lock successfully.

Autofocus may have difficultly locking onto subjects which are very close to the nearest focusing distance of the lens.

Autofocus accuracy depends heavily on the working condition of the lens. Lenses with hidden problems which may not be apparent on Canon DSLRs will lead to inaccurate and unreliable autofocus on Sony NEX. Typical problems of this kind that we have seen include an unsmooth/erratic autofocus mechanism (e.g. getting stuck intermittently at a certain focusing distance), a faulty/worn-out distance encoder or other faulty/worn-out internal sensors."
Logged

telyt

  • Guest
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2015, 08:03:59 AM »

Thanks for that information, but I'm not sure it follows that autofocus with Canon lenses will either work perfectly or not at all, when using a Metabones adapter.

Having checked the Metabones website at http://www.metabones.com/products/details/mb-ef-e-bm3  I'm a bit alarmed to discover a long list of possible limitations when using a Canon lens with a Sony camera, as itemised below. Would all, or at least some of these limitations not apply to the A7R II?

Autofocus

"Autofocus is supported, with the following known limitations.
Autofocus speed is very slow and inadequate for most moving subjects. The autofocus speed is unfit for professional use for sure, and it would disappoint most enthusiasts.

Only Canon-branded lenses introduced in or after 2006 are officially supported. Autofocus may be disabled for older Canon lenses and most third-party lenses, including most Sigma, Tamron and Tokina lenses and all Contax N lenses modified by Conurus.

On NEX camera bodies in camcorder form factor (e.g. FS series), autofocus may be available only in photo mode but not in movie capture mode.

Continuous AF is not supported.

DMF mode (direct manual focus) is not supported.

For non-camcorder camera bodies (e.g. NEX-7), during movie capture, if the subject moves to a different distance, half-press the shutter release button to re-activate autofocus and lock onto the subject again. Since autofocus speed is slow, there may be visible disruption in the resulting footage.

The first two autofocus attempts are used to calibrate the lens and as a result may not lock successfully on the target. Half-press the shutter release button again and autofocus will lock successfully.

Autofocus may have difficultly locking onto subjects which are very close to the nearest focusing distance of the lens.

Autofocus accuracy depends heavily on the working condition of the lens. Lenses with hidden problems which may not be apparent on Canon DSLRs will lead to inaccurate and unreliable autofocus on Sony NEX. Typical problems of this kind that we have seen include an unsmooth/erratic autofocus mechanism (e.g. getting stuck intermittently at a certain focusing distance), a faulty/worn-out distance encoder or other faulty/worn-out internal sensors."


I'm a little lost as to how this relates to AF fine tuning.
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9719
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2015, 09:58:57 AM »

I'm a little lost as to how this relates to AF fine tuning.

All those who use autofocussing want it to be as fast and as accurate as possible. As you pointed out, AF Fine tuning is not considered necessary with the A7R2. However, a 3rd party adapter for use with other 3rd party lenses might introduce focussing inaccuracies for which no adjustments can be made.

Having searched for forum comments and reviews of the Metabones adapter for Canon EF lenses, for use  with the A7R, I find lots of problems expressed. Some people have problems with lenses that won't autofocus at all, despite the fact they are supposed to, and often those lenses that do autofocus tend to do so very slowly. Some folks are forced to use manual focussing.
Logged

telyt

  • Guest
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2015, 11:16:55 AM »

All those who use autofocussing want it to be as fast and as accurate as possible. As you pointed out, AF Fine tuning is not considered necessary with the A7R2. However, a 3rd party adapter for use with other 3rd party lenses might introduce focussing inaccuracies for which no adjustments can be made.

Having searched for forum comments and reviews of the Metabones adapter for Canon EF lenses, for use  with the A7R, I find lots of problems expressed. Some people have problems with lenses that won't autofocus at all, despite the fact they are supposed to, and often those lenses that do autofocus tend to do so very slowly. Some folks are forced to use manual focussing.

These problems have noting to do with fine tuning.  AF Micro Adjust, as it is frequently called, is required when the AF system's focus plane is different from the image focus plane or the lens deviates from nominal specifications.  With the AF system on the sensor the discrepancy between focus plane and image plane is eliminated and once the PD AF system has gotten close instead of saying "good enough" like a DSLR does it can switch to CF AF for precise focus which eliminates problems caused by deviation from specifications and by mechanical wear.

The problems you've rightly described have absolutely nothing to do with AF fine tuning.  AF fine tuning adjusts for the difference between "good enough" and "accurate", needs to be repeated as the camera and lens age, and may be different for each copy of a camera and/or lens even those with the same nominal specs.  On-chip AF eliminates the need for fine tuning entirely.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 11:23:56 AM by wildlightphoto »
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2236
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2015, 04:05:07 PM »

Having searched for forum comments and reviews of the Metabones adapter for Canon EF lenses, for use with the A7R, I find lots of problems expressed. Some people have problems with lenses that won't autofocus at all, despite the fact they are supposed to, and often those lenses that do autofocus tend to do so very slowly. Some folks are forced to use manual focussing.

These are almost surely mechanical/electronic issues with the lenses and/or adaptor. Best taken up with Metabones IMO.

-Dave-
Logged

MatthewCromer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 505
Re: Sony Kicks Butt
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2015, 04:34:35 PM »



Having carried out my own tests regarding the difference between uncompressed 14 bit RAWs and compressed 12 bit RAWs with Nikon cameras, I tend to think the 11 bit compressed RAW of the A7R II will inevitably compromise the full benefits of a BSI sensor in respect of increased dynamic range in the deepest shadows.

The RAWs aren't 11 bits. Dynamic range in the deep shadows is not affected.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6   Go Up