Sony announces the new 42 MP A7rII, and this might be good for the MF market

[voidshatter]

A7rII:

42MP Full-Frame Exmor R BSI CMOS Sensor
BIONZ X Image Processor
5-Axis SteadyShot INSIDE Stabilization
399 Phase-Detect AF Points & 5 fps Burst
Internal 4K XAVC S Video & S-Log2 Gamma
Weather-Resistant Magnesium Alloy Body
Built-In Wi-Fi Connectivity with NFC
ISO 102,400
no shutter blade motion
3,5x faster than the A7r
A7rII focus is almost 40% faster than the one of the A7r
Shipping in August

Back-illuminated CMOS means possible compatibility with technical camera lenses, and 100MP in 645 format. No longer need to live with the poor dynamic range of IQ380 and 5DSR. We can dream!

[voidshatter]

BSI CMOS:

[Wayne Fox]

yeah the BSI design might make a A7rII on a tech camera a really sweet combination.

I use an A7r as backup and for some shoots, the in body stabilization and better sensor (it sounds like silent mode would mean electronic first curtain) sounds terrific.  I may start exploring how to use my Rodenstock glass on this body when I get it.

[Jeffery Salter]

Back-illuminated CMOS means possible compatibility with technical camera lenses, and 100MP in 645 format. No longer need to live with the poor dynamic range of IQ380 and 5DSR. We can dream!

It's definitely a good option for a  tech camera and great glass.

Can you explain how a 35mm size 42MP CMOS chip becomes a 100MP in 645 format?  Who will be making this 100MP 645 format chip?  When will this chip be produced?

Have you tested an IQ380?  Could you release a raw file.  What do you mean by "poor dynamic range"?


regards,
Jeffery

[synn]

As great as this camera is (would probably replace my Nikon setup) if only we had a forum for 35mm related discussions! If only there was a rule that this forum is for medium and large format discussions only!

[PaulSchneider]

It's definitely a good option for a  tech camera and great glass.

Can you explain how a 35mm size 42MP CMOS chip becomes a 100MP in 645 format?  Who will be making this 100MP 645 format chip?  When will this chip be produced?

Have you tested an IQ380?  Could you release a raw file.  What do you mean by "poor dynamic range"?


regards,
Jeffery

Jeffrey, may I ask: Are you a little biased towards P1? Saw that promo video on youtube...

I think it is clear that P1 is dependent upon Sony re their CMOS offering. If I remember it right, the IQ250 / 350 is based on the Sony chip. So if a bigger CMOS comes around, it probably will be when Sony decides to do it.

[alan_b]

Jeez - tough crowd. I find this pretty interesting in a MF context.

1. Currently no 645 CMOS sensor on the photo market
2. Current highest-res MF sensors have issues w/ some wide-angle lenses
3. Sony shows the largest BSI CMOS sensor so far.  Many are hopeful that BSI sensors will be more compatible w/ wide angle lenses & movements.
4. A Sony 100MP 645 BSI CMOS sensor would be more interesting to me than any current MF offering.

[torger]

This is extremely exciting for me as a MFD tech cam owner. Much more exciting than Phase One's new camera body.

For each sensor generation tech camera wide angle and movement support has become worse, it's not been a good trend. It was even looking likely that Rodenstock Digaron could be semi-obsoleted by next generation CMOS (according to me they already are with the current CMOS, but that's a different story) like Schneider Digitar wides were semi-obsoleted by Dalsa 6um.

In fact, I've been thinking that my current CCD may be the last MFD camera I own because it has seemed that 135 and MFD is converging to the same type of lens designs and sort of similar camera designs, some sort of mirrorless with limited movements. I know many love the ALPA FPS, but that's not my idea of a tech camera. I want large format style view camera with rich movements and preferably symmetrical lenses, and when we have live view it's just so perfect, but the CMOS haven't been able to do movements or wides. If ALPA FPS type of camera is the next logical step due to sensor limitations I rather use 135.

And voila, BSI is coming to a larger sensor than ever before, and made by the only CMOS MFD provider, Sony. Maybe it will be in next generation MF CMOS. There's hope again. It's still unseen if BSI really gives us wide angular response in practice (it's not the reason they do it, it's for sensitivity, wide angular response is just a side effect), but it's quite likely. With Actus cameras etc we'll be able to test it using A7rII.

[PaulSchneider]

This is extremely exciting for me as a MFD tech cam owner. Much more exciting than Phase One's new camera body.

For each sensor generation tech camera wide angle and movement support has become worse, it's not been a good trend. It was even looking likely that Rodenstock Digaron could be semi-obsoleted by next generation CMOS (according to me they already are with the current CMOS, but that's a different story) like Schneider Digitar wides were semi-obsoleted by Dalsa 6um.

In fact, I've been thinking that my current CCD may be the last MFD camera I own because it has seemed that 135 and MFD is converging to the same type of lens designs and sort of similar camera designs, some sort of mirrorless with limited movements. I know many love the ALPA FPS, but that's not my idea of a tech camera. I want large format style view camera with movements, and when we have live view it's just so perfect, but the CMOS haven't been able to do movements or wides. If ALPA FPS type of camera is the next logical step due to sensor limitations I rather use 135.

And voila, BSI is coming to a larger sensor than ever before, and made by the only CMOS MFD provider, Sony. Maybe it will be in next generation MF CMOS. There's hope again. It's still unseen if BSI really gives us wide angular response in practice (it's not the reason they do it, it's for sensitivity, wide angular response is just a side effect), but it's quite likely.

Torger, is there a way to use the A7R2 with an Alpa Max?

[PaulSchneider]

Jeez - tough crowd. I find this pretty interesting in a MF context.

1. Currently no 645 CMOS sensor on the photo market
2. Current highest-res MF sensors have issues w/ some wide-angle lenses
3. Sony shows the largest BSI CMOS sensor so far.  Many are hopeful that BSI sensors will be more compatible w/ wide angle lenses & movements.
4. A Sony 100MP 645 BSI CMOS sensor would be more interesting to me than any current MF offering.

Are BSI sensors also supposed to have higher DR? Just know that ISO is better?

[AlterEgo]

Are BSI sensors also supposed to have higher DR?

BSI is to compensate reduction in sensel size by moving schemotechnic behind the illuminated (not during the manufacturing process but when you make a shot) sensor surface... and more light that you can capture = higher DR.

[Paul2660]

And hopefully less colorcast with movements. This camera plus a Arca universal or Cambo Aptus,  oh boy.

Paul

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Full frame 645 is something like 2.6 times larger than 24x36, so would a full frame 645 be built using the same pixel pitch it would be around 110 MP.

Sony is making the sensor in all the new 50 MP CMOS backs, so it would be within the realm of possibility that Sony would make an MFD chip using this technology.

Best regards
Erik

It's definitely a good option for a  tech camera and great glass.

Can you explain how a 35mm size 42MP CMOS chip becomes a 100MP in 645 format?  Who will be making this 100MP 645 format chip?  When will this chip be produced?

Have you tested an IQ380?  Could you release a raw file.  What do you mean by "poor dynamic range"?


regards,
Jeffery

[Jeffery Salter]

Jeffrey, may I ask: Are you a little biased towards P1? Saw that promo video on youtube...

No. Thank you for watching it.

On my desk is a  Super D Graflex an awesome 4 x 5 SLR.  Its really unfortunate that Fuji and Kodak discontinued readyloads otherwise I would try and shoot every assignment with it. Glad to have been featured for my photography efforts in a few PHASE ONE videos. Not biased towards P1 just love my craft.  I really love photography.  I have a lot of respect for craftsman who work years designing and testing the photography gear we all use to express our visions.

The OP said, “We no longer have to live with the poor dynamic range of IQ380 and the 5DSR”  How would he know what the DR of IQ380 is unless he has a raw file.  How does this blind assertion improve anyone’s photography?  I guess he has never driven through Missouri...The show me state.

I understand architectural photographers are going the the route of using the Sony S7 series cameras on view cameras this is quite cool.  A great development for tech view camera users.

When the chip makers decide to sell or license 100 MP CMOs sensors, it just seems to me new lenses will have to be made as well. So if you are a designer or manufacturer of photography lenses, what size sensors do you design for...100 MP, 200 MP, 300 MP or etc?  Does sensor development lead optical development or is it the other way around?   Is there any publicly available research on what is happening with optics?

I think it is clear that P1 is dependent upon Sony re their CMOS offering. If I remember it right, the IQ250 / 350 is based on the Sony chip. So if a bigger CMOS comes around, it probably will be when Sony decides to do it.

Ok. I believe that you believe that. It really doesn't matter to me who manufactures the CMOS sensor.  What's important to me is the camera system.  Professional tools that facilitate in the creation of quality professional work.

regards,
Jeffery

[Jeffery Salter]

Full frame 645 is something like 2.6 times larger than 24x36, so would a full frame 645 be built using the same pixel pitch it would be around 110 MP.

Sony is making the sensor in all the new 50 MP CMOS backs, so it would be within the realm of possibility that Sony would make an MFD chip using this technology.

Best regards
Erik

Thank you Erik. 

Is possible they have already made the 110 MP chips?  And if so what if any changes need to be made in optics or camera platforms to fully benefit from the larger chips? 

Jeffery

[BernardLanguillier]

And hopefully less colorcast with movements. This camera plus a Arca universal or Cambo Aptus,  oh boy.

Paul,

Exactly, the guys at Cambo must be in heaven!

I'll most probably get that combo.

Cheers,
Bernard

[voidshatter]

The OP said, “We no longer have to live with the poor dynamic range of IQ380 and the 5DSR”  How would he know what the DR of IQ380 is unless he has a raw file.  How does this blind assertion improve anyone’s photography?  I guess he has never driven through Missouri...The show me state.

Jeffery

It is well documented that the IQ180 and the IQ280 has less dynamic range than a 3-year old Nikon D800E (Sony IMX094 CMOS sensor). At getdpi I have posted RAW files taken by me, as well as quantatitive data measured by different websites. If you believe in a miracle that the IQ380 has an improvement over the IQ280 then feel free to go ahead with an IQ380 and compare it against a Nikon D800E/Sony A7R and post the RAW files so I can teach you why Dalsa CCD sensors have inferior dynamic range than Sony CMOS. (Hint: try to cool down the IQ380 so you can slap in my face.)

Oh well, you need me to show you how gear performance makes a difference when capturing an image? What is your definition of good photography?

[Ken Doo]

It is well documented that the IQ180 and the IQ280 has less dynamic range than a 3-year old Nikon D800E (Sony IMX094 CMOS sensor). At get dpi I have posted RAW files taken by me, as well as quantatitive data measured by different websites. If you believe in a miracle that the IQ380 has an improvement over the IQ280 then feel free to go ahead with an IQ380 and compare it against a Nikon D800E/Sony A7R and post the RAW files so I can teach you why Dalsa CCD sensors have inferior dynamic range than Sony CMOS. (Hint: try to cool down the IQ380 so you can slap my face.)

That's just silly---and really not in context. The IQ180/280 may have less DR on paper than a Sony sensor, but that does not mean that they (IQ180/280 Dalsa sensor) have "poor dynamic range" or the "poor dynamic range" of the IQ380, a new MFDB that has yet to be released yet!  I really doubt that all those absolutely drop dead gorgeous images made by these MFDBs has been simply turned into trash overnight with the introduction of a Sony sensor.

I think most would agree that DR is nice, but it is the entirety of the system as a whole that really gets the work done.

ken

[eronald]

why doesnt phase stick a pelletier effect cooler in the backs, that one can activate when needed?

That's just silly---and really not in context. The IQ180/280 may have less DR on paper than a Sony sensor, but that does not mean that they (IQ180/280 Dalsa sensor) have "poor dynamic range" or the "poor dynamic range" of the IQ380, a new MFDB that has yet to be released yet!  I really doubt that all those absolutely drop dead gorgeous images made by these MFDBs has been simply turned into trash overnight with the introduction of a Sony sensor.

I think most would agree that DR is nice, but it is the entirety of the system as a whole that really gets the work done.

ken

[uaiomex]

Canon is getting ready to pump up TS glass production!  
Eduardo

Paul,

Exactly, the guys at Cambo must be in heaven!

I'll most probably get that combo.

Cheers,
Bernard