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Author Topic: Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb  (Read 2726 times)

John V.

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Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb
« on: June 03, 2015, 05:41:19 am »

I do artwork reproductions from time to time. All usually goes well.

I shoot raw>prophotorgb and do whatever post work to make a print ready file

I then use that image> downsize>convert to srgb to make a web ready file.

This works, leaving me two files that are visually the same.

This one I'm working with now, the above mentioned process gives me two very different files visually. Lots a saturated greens and blues and they look very different after converting to srgb. I have experimented with different rendering intents. No change.

Is this just the way it goes with srgb?

I've noticed if I convert the original prophoto image to an untagged format, they are comparable. Is it ok to provide an untagged image for web use. I've always been under the impression that srgb was appropriate.

I'm unsure of how to answer the question if it arises:

Why cant I get the web ready image looking the same as the print ready image?

JD

   
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graeme

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Re: Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 06:16:56 am »

Are you soft proofing before converting colour spaces? I've found that some strong blues shift slightly to purple when going from prophoto to srgb.

Graeme
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John V.

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Re: Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 06:40:55 am »

it's a turquoise color. I'm assuming it's jsut not possible to display in srgb. I wish I could get some screenshots to compare the two, but I'm not sure how I would show a prophoto image vs a srgb image online lol
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 06:42:53 am by John Drew »
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digitaldog

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Re: Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 09:26:23 am »

It's the limitation of sRGB. There can be two issues that sometimes occur, both can be detected by soft proofing. One is very saturated colors who's texture map to a solid blob of color. You can see an illustration of this in the later part of the posts discussing soft proofing on the magenta towels: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=100689.new#new
If the texture is important, a little local desaturation can go a long way to bring it back for conversion to sRGB which as I point out above, is useful for web posting where we don't know what others will see anyway (so agonizing over this is questionable). The other issue is a slight color shift but that's usually rarer and could be again selectively fixed after conversion.
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John V.

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Re: Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2015, 01:31:32 am »

I shoot with a polarizing filter which adds a lot of saturation and contrast, which I bump down in ACR initially, but still leave everything on the plus side, which is then incrementally bumped until it matches the original. But the client isn't comfortable leaving the artwork in studio, aside from the scan, so it's kind of a guessing game.

I've made some initial proofs. Hopefully the original capture is so over saturated compared to the original that I can bump it down to the point where the ProPhoto image converts to sRGB jsut fine and they both appear the same. Because I'm still unsure of how to explain to the client the reason why I can't provide a "web ready" image that matches the hi-rez prophoto print file in color.
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Royce Howland

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Re: Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2015, 11:39:07 am »

The explanation of why they can't match is fairly straight forward. If the original subject contains colours that can exist within ProPhoto RGB (or Adobe RGB) but not in sRGB, then the web-ready image can't match the wider gamut versions of the image. As a very simplistic analogy, it's like having a 5 gallon, 10 gallon and 20 gallon bucket. If you have 12 gallons of water to carry and need to do it in one load, then clearly you need the 20 gallon bucket even though it's overkill. A 10 gallon bucket falls a bit short, while the 5 gallon bucket falls very short. Of course if you only have 4.5 gallons to carry, then any of them will work.

Conversion between colour spaces will only produce perceptually "the same" results if the source colours all fall within the colour gamut of all of the colour spaces involved. The fact is your camera can capture colours that lie outside the gamut of sRGB. You haven't said what monitor you're using for your digital workflow, but it's likely that it can reproduce beyond-sRGB colours as well. You said in the original post "if I convert the original prophoto image to an untagged format, they are comparable". Well, "untagged" likely means the unprocessed RGB colour data is being dumped straight to your system's video pipeline. If it looks comparable to the ProPhoto RGB version of the file in Photoshop, this means you're probably running a wide gamut display that naturally reproduces colour well beyond the range of sRGB.

You haven't said what kind of print is ultimately being targeted for the repro files. But if it's inkjet print, then the printer, ink and media also certainly will be able to reproduce colours that are beyond what sRGB can represent. Basically, sRGB is a 5 gallon bucket and everything else you're dealing with involves more than 5 gallons.

We do some artwork repro where I work, and our workflow is similar to what you've described. We shoot the originals with Phase medium format gear, polarized strobes, colour checker charts for white balancing, etc. and develop in a 16-bit ProPhoto RGB workflow viewed on NEC wide gamut displays. For original artworks involving lots of saturated colours (certain textiles, acrylic paints, etc.) we'd absolutely expect than an sRGB-converted version of the repro file would never look like the original artwork, nor like our master digital repro file.

If you have a client that's hyper concerned about colour matching, and the original work contains highly saturated colours, then most likely you simply won't be able to do it via sRGB images over the web. If you can't compare the on-screen wide gamut version of the file, nor the printed repro, directly to the original, then yes it will be a guessing game.

Note that, setting aside the web / sRGB issue (which is kind of a sideline issue in the art repro scenario), it's quite possible that you won't be able to reproduce some of artwork original colours accurately anyway. They may simply lie outside the gamut of what your combined, end-to-end colour system can achieve. Colour spaces overlap each other in irregular ways. Some colours from the original artwork may lie inside the gamut of some parts of your workflow, but outside the gamut of other parts. The maximum colour that you'll be able to reproduce with some level of accuracy will be the lowest common denominator of your entire end-to-end system. The two normal limiting factors are the original in-camera RAW capture, and the final print. In between you can work with higher fidelity if you so choose, but it won't necessarily help you if the camera couldn't capture the colour in the first place, or the printer can't print it.

Jim Kasson

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Re: Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2015, 01:15:11 pm »

I often find it useful to look at the gamut of the image and the gamut of the output device in CIELab to develop a strategy to compress the gamut of the image with the least visual damage.

I use GamutVision, but I'm sure there are other programs.

Here is the gamut of an image -- the dots -- and the gamut of an offset press that I'll be using soon -- the mesh.





I ended up making some of the green areas darker, as well as desaturating them to get them in gamut.

Jim
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 01:18:32 pm by Jim Kasson »
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digitaldog

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Re: Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2015, 01:19:01 pm »

I use GamutVision, but I'm sure there are other programs.
Can you send it the full rez image or, like ColorThink, it's necessary to sample down very small or the app will barf?
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Quick question about converting prophoto to srgb
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2015, 01:40:32 pm »

Can you send it the full rez image or, like ColorThink, it's necessary to sample down very small or the app will barf?

It will take the full res version. However, it's been a long time since there were any changes to the program. I'm afraid that, as IBM used to say, that it's been "stabilized." Come some OS upgrade it will probably stop working, like ColorThink did for me.

Jim
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