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Author Topic: Submitting images to Commerical Printers  (Read 3292 times)

Robert Boire

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Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« on: May 29, 2015, 09:05:47 pm »

I am trying to select a local commercial printing service for volume printing and have been submitting some test images for evaluation purposes. One of the images I have submitted is admittedly difficult: very subdued colors, very low key with many areas nearly (and purposely), but not actually, clipped to black. I get reasonably good results (compared to my profiled monitor) printing from LR on my own Epson 2880 printer and am using this as a benchmark. I did not do any brightness/contract adjustments during the actual print, only in the develop process.

The results I got from one of the “professional” services are disappointing: very dark areas in the original clipped completely to a black mass with no detail and a distinct overall purplish color cast –ie considerably worse than my test print.

The printer gave the following “explanations” of where I (allegedly) went wrong:

 - My monitor is too bright …Perhaps… but if anything this would result in my print being too dark and does not explain why the commercial print is so much darker than my own benchmark.
 -The image is just too dense. Ok, but then I would expect to see this when I soft proofed using their printer profiles on my monitor. In fact they were not significantly different from my own printer soft proofs. BTW the darks were not clipped out on his monitor either.
 - Their Epson Professional (9000 family, not sure exactly what model) printer with its 11 inks is more accurate than my 2880 with its 8 inks and so is closer to reality, hence explaining the color cast and the clipped blacks. - ie the professional print is "right"
- BTW, A second print done at the same location with another (I forget the name) commercial ink-jet with only 4 inks did not have a color cast but even worse black clipping. I was told that this was because it was less accurate.
 - I submitted the file with Adobe instead of sRGB color space used by their Epson Professional printer. This is true and was an error on my part.

These explanations all seem rather bogus, except possibly that last one. Could this have a large effect on the result? I guess I am wondering if any of them are legitimate before I rule out this printer.

BTW, a third print at another location using a Fuji (chemical printer) came out pretty much as expected.

I imagine this has come up before. Any suggestions/comments?

Thanks for your help.

Mark D Segal

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2015, 09:11:36 pm »

The photos on your website indicate you know exactly what you are doing. The sRGB business could be a good part of the problem. Did you adjust your files with HIS printer/paper profile? This could also be significant. If your display is properly calibrated and profiled (most importantly not too bright) and you are soft-proofing your final adjustments using his profile, he should produce pretty much exactly what you would expect
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digitaldog

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2015, 09:20:55 pm »

When you say "commercial printer" are you talking about offset, CMYK work?
Did they supply an output profile?

Based on what you've described, the bit about the display seems like BS to me. Your RGB file sent to your desktop printer is fine as was the Fuji.

The issue could be their conversion! And if you can get their profile, you can cross render to the Epson (make Epson attempt to match their process).
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Robert Boire

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2015, 10:10:30 pm »

Did you adjust your files with HIS printer/paper profile?
No, I adjusted according to my printer profile. I double-checked against his profile and the proofs (mine, his) were reasonably close. But the printed results were way different.

When you say "commercial printer" are you talking about offset, CMYK work?
Did they supply an output profile?

Based on what you've described, the bit about the display seems like BS to me. Your RGB file sent to your desktop printer is fine as was the Fuji.

The issue could be their conversion! And if you can get their profile, you can cross render to the Epson (make Epson attempt to match their process).

I should have said a "commerical printer service". No, its not offset, its a Epson inkjet with RGB input. Yes, they supplied a profile...see above.

I am not quite sure what you mean by "cross render to Epson".

BTW, I tried this experiment. I export the image from LR in both Adobe and sRGB color spaces and then printed both on my printer using the printer color management set at sRGB. The results were nearly identical...which leads me to conclude - I think - that my error in uploading the file as Adobe instead of sRGB probably did not cause much damage.

Mark D Segal

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2015, 10:19:54 pm »

Based on this my suggestion is to re-adjust one or two of the problem images using his profile, at least ARGB(98) colour space if not ProPhoto (making sure you have correctly chosen the "Device to Simulate" in the Customize Proof Condition set-up in Photoshop or just the profile if in Lightroom), let him reprint them, and if still not satisfactory find another printer.
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GWGill

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2015, 10:30:53 pm »

I imagine this has come up before. Any suggestions/comments?
Include a few key test patches in a print (i.e. 50% RGBCMY + Grey values).
If you know what the conversion is supposed to be (i.e. source profile, intent, destination profile), then you
can sanity check the actual values you get back. If it's way out, then their either their workflow is
broken or their profile doesn't match what their printer is doing.
If it's about right, then your previews aren't accurate.
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digitaldog

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2015, 10:55:14 pm »

I should have said a "commerical printer service". No, its not offset, its a Epson inkjet with RGB input. Yes, they supplied a profile...see above.
I am not quite sure what you mean by "cross render to Epson".
So you got good results on your 2880 but they can't on their Epson? Something is screwed up on their end.
Cross rendering is using two sets of profiles to simulate one output device upon another but that's not necessary in this case.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 10:57:31 pm by digitaldog »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2015, 10:57:47 pm »

So you got good results on your 2880 but they can't on their Epson? Something is screwed up on their end.
 

I think so too, but best to verify doing what GWGill and I recommended with fresh test prints adjusted under softproof with the correct profile.
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digitaldog

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2015, 11:01:12 pm »

I think so too, but best to verify doing what GWGill and I recommended with fresh test prints adjusted under softproof with the correct profile.
Yeah, that will work but I don't think the soft proof is an issue here. I think the lab either screwed something up or their profile is crap.
Robert, have you had them print anything successfully other than the one 'difficult' image? If not, send them a color reference image and make a print on your 2880 too.
Something like:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2015, 11:05:35 pm »

Yeah, that will work but I don't think the soft proof is an issue here. I think the lab either screwed something up or their profile is crap.
............

Could well be. If he can examine their profile in ColorThink Pro, say compared with Epson's profile for the same printer/paper combination that would provide additional clues along the lines you are suggesting.
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Robert Boire

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2015, 08:44:54 am »


Robert, have you had them print anything successfully other than the one 'difficult' image?

I guess most of my images are difficult   ;D.

After the printer"s patronizing comments and your's and Mark's comments - which pretty much confirmed what I was thinking - I think I'm beating a dead horse.  But I will give it a shot if only out of curiosity.

Mark, I am not sure what readjusting with his profile will accomplish? I already compared a soft proof of the image using his profile against my own printer profile and saw pretty much the same thing...ie no color cast or blocking.

Thanks

Mark D Segal

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2015, 09:48:20 am »

...............

Mark, I am not sure what readjusting with his profile will accomplish? I already compared a soft proof of the image using his profile against my own printer profile and saw pretty much the same thing...ie no color cast or blocking.

Thanks

In that case, nothing. It's his problem.
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digitaldog

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2015, 09:58:33 am »

But I will give it a shot if only out of curiosity.
I'd suggest you print the color reference file on your 2880. Have them print it using the same rendering intent if possible. Have your print at the ready and examine theirs. If it looks poor, whip out yours and tell them the bit about a too dark display is BS, they lost a potential client and move on.
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Robert Boire

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2015, 10:39:17 am »

I'd suggest you print the color reference file on your 2880. Have them print it using the same rendering intent if possible. Have your print at the ready and examine theirs. If it looks poor, whip out yours and tell them the bit about a too dark display is BS, they lost a potential client and move on.

I will. I'm actually looking foward to this.

Royce Howland

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2015, 11:10:28 am »

If it was me, from what I read here I'd skip the additional testing parts and go directly to the "move on" part. But I'm kind of judgmental that way when paying money to supposedly professional service providers. :)

From the original description, the service person is either patronizing or lacking competence (or both). If it's the former, further testing won't change much, if anything, because the real problem is attitude towards quality and customer service. If it's the latter, you're spending your personal time and money to educate somebody who already should be more competent than you at delivering quality results from his own shop.

The initial results of crushed blacks and magenta cast are results I see & hear about pretty commonly from "commercial" operations, and indicate to me the printing system just isn't dialed in. (Note that I include the operating person as part of the system.) On top of that, the reported statements from the "pro" about image density, a 9000-series printer being "more accurate" than a 2880, Epson printers having an sRGB colour space, etc. range from hogwash to avoidance of understanding the real issue.

Further engagement seems to me quite likely to be a waste of time. If you have other alternatives, why not just go with them? If there is a reason why you need to consider this printing service for your needs, then you may have to go through a pretty step-by-step workflow breakdown with the "pro" to determine where the issues are entering, and to convince him to pay attention to fixing them...

digitaldog

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2015, 11:23:09 am »

If it was me, from what I read here I'd skip the additional testing parts and go directly to the "move on" part. But I'm kind of judgmental that way when paying money to supposedly professional service providers. :)
I'd agree if the OP has to spend money for further testing. The lab should run the test for free, it's not that costly to output one 8x11 ink jet print.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Submitting images to Commerical Printers
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2015, 11:25:21 am »

Yes, Royce and you have hit the nail on the head - increasingly clear through all this discussion. Of course running a test isn't only the cost of a piece of paper. It also takes a bit of time. This would be a test of the professionalism and integrity of the printer.
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