What has the Adobe LR team been doing since LR5 for 2 years?

[chez]

I don't believe that "everything is going mobile". If that was the case, HPC manufacturers should stop building large computing farms and rather focus on cell phone (apps).

Clearly, cell phones have become a lot more relevant to the average consumer, and PCs have become somewhat less relevant. That is not to say that the same must happen for niches like photographers or graphical artists, or that the trend will extrapolate forever.

-h

Clearly the Internet or some form of it has vastly surpassed any other form for sharing and displaying images taken by cameras. Clearly the majority of those images on the Internet are viewed through a mobile device. PC's are quickly fading as a means to view images.

You nailed it when you said professional photographers are niche markets, one that is shrinking as many consumers have their own cameras. That is precisely why LR is focusing on the mobile platform...it is the means for displaying images going forward.

[ButchM]

You nailed it when you said professional photographers are niche markets, one that is shrinking as many consumers have their own cameras. That is precisely why LR is focusing on the mobile platform...it is the means for displaying images going forward.

Clearly, if that is indeed the case ... Adobe has adopted a very convoluted and complex means of getting those consumer images to their mobile devices. Currently it is a "go around the block to get across the street" methodology ... Once again, I'd like to point out ... if the Lightroom Team is pursuing the amateur consumer market, that market segment expects, if not demands, simplicity not complexity.

I have a portfolio app that I paid $1.99 to use with my original iPad five years ago ... as far as getting images from my Lr library to my current iPads and iPhones ... it's a pure piece of cake using that solution compared to Lr Mobile ... and I can do it over my private WiFi ... no Adobe servers involved.  I really fail to see average consumers (even those that have their own camera) embracing a subscription fee only to be encumbered by a complicated system to do what should be extremely easy.

The amateur consumer market is flush with very viable, cost effective (as in entirely free) options. I would think in many ways, Adobe is late to the party if it is their desire to attend.

[chez]

Clearly, if that is indeed the case ... Adobe has adopted a very convoluted and complex means of getting those consumer images to their mobile devices. Currently it is a "go around the block to get across the street" methodology ... Once again, I'd like to point out ... if the Lightroom Team is pursuing the amateur consumer market, that market segment expects, if not demands, simplicity not complexity.

I have a portfolio app that I paid $1.99 to use with my original iPad five years ago ... as far as getting images from my Lr library to my current iPads and iPhones ... it's a pure piece of cake using that solution compared to Lr Mobile ... and I can do it over my private WiFi ... no Adobe servers involved.  I really fail to see average consumers (even those that have their own camera) embracing a subscription fee only to be encumbered by a complicated system to do what should be extremely easy.

The amateur consumer market is flush with very viable, cost effective (as in entirely free) options. I would think in many ways, Adobe is late to the party if it is their desire to attend.

Give them time. This is just the 1st incarnation...I'm sure we'll see much more mobile aware features from LR and other products. Companies that don't embrace this will be eliminated in the future.

As far as subscriptions go, you'll see all major software heading in that direction. The likes of Adobe, Microsoft, Oracle to name a few have fully embraced this concept. Others will follow. Five years from now, it will be the norm.

[ButchM]

Give them time. This is just the 1st incarnation...I'm sure we'll see much more mobile aware features from LR and other products. Companies that don't embrace this will be eliminated in the future.

Once again you gloss over my point ... as far as the amateur consumer level customer is concerned ... when it comes to Lightroom, Adobe isn't a little bit behind ... they are so far back you can't see them in the rear view mirror ... when it comes to convenience and simplicity of use of Lr Mobile.

As far as subscriptions go, you'll see all major software heading in that direction. The likes of Adobe, Microsoft, Oracle to name a few have fully embraced this concept. Others will follow. Five years from now, it will be the norm.

I agree it will be the norm for those willing to pay for such solutions. However ... John Q. Public, amateur photographer with his own camera, won't be subscribing as long as there are so many inexpensive and free options available. No matter how good your product is ... if the masses can get good enough ... for free ... they won't be getting in line for any kind of perpetual payment. No matter if that licensing policy is the industry standard or not. It's going to be a near impossible sale to convince a novice to adopt a more complex solution that you never stop paying for, instead of staying with their current free and easy option.

I don't see the group you believe Adobe is targeting as the pathway to the future or how viable a bottom line enhancement they would offer over the long haul. Human nature and statistics indicate otherwise.

[chez]

Once again you gloss over my point ... as far as the amateur consumer level customer is concerned ... when it comes to Lightroom, Adobe isn't a little bit behind ... they are so far back you can't see them in the rear view mirror ... when it comes to convenience and simplicity of use of Lr Mobile.

I agree it will be the norm for those willing to pay for such solutions. However ... John Q. Public, amateur photographer with his own camera, won't be subscribing as long as there are so many inexpensive and free options available. No matter how good your product is ... if the masses can get good enough ... for free ... they won't be getting in line for any kind of perpetual payment. No matter if that licensing policy is the industry standard or not. It's going to be a near impossible sale to convince a novice to adopt a more complex solution that you never stop paying for, instead of staying with their current free and easy option.

I don't see the group you believe Adobe is targeting as the pathway to the future or how viable a bottom line enhancement they would offer over the long haul. Human nature and statistics indicate otherwise.

Butch...show me these statistics you talk about. Show me how large the shrinking professional market is and then show me these stats regarding the consumer market...and don't forget the possible billions of middle class consumers arising from China and India. You throw around these "shrinking consumer market" concepts...but please provide the stats on both the potential size of the professional market and the potential size of the consumer market.

I know which one has shrunk in the last 10 years and which one has increased 10 fold.

Now Butch...please tell me where the biggest potential of future revenue and growth would come from?

[ButchM]

Butch...show me these statistics you talk about. Show me how large the shrinking professional market is and then show me these stats regarding the consumer market...and don't forget the possible billions of middle class consumers arising from China and India. You throw around these "shrinking consumer market" concepts...but please provide the stats on both the potential size of the professional market and the potential size of the consumer market.

I know which one has shrunk in the last 10 years and which one has increased 10 fold.

Now Butch...please tell me where the biggest potential of future revenue and growth would come from?

Tell you what ... I'll show you my stats if you show me yours ... You haven't backed up one of your assertions on any forum topic ... ever. So spare me your demands. I'm not going to do your research for you.

If the "emerging" markets in China and India are so significant ... why are Canon and Nikon having such a rough go selling units in those markets. Even their low end DSLR models are not thriving in those markets. (You have checked out their sales reports for the past several quarters and fiscal year ... haven't you?) Yet that same Asian market is buying iPhones and Galaxy S phones faster than Apple and Samsung can spit them out. I'm sure those folks just can't wait to pay for new software from Adobe. Instead of using the free software and services from Apple and Google that come installed on their new devices.

Secondly, you once again gloss over the situation. Have consumers of ANY income class in Asia ever been willing to pay for software of any kind? And when did I say there was a shrinking consumer market? I said, the class of amateur photographer that would also own/use a camera and shoots in RAW format  and would also consider Lightroom as a viable option is not an infinite or vastly expanding group ... and ... that recent sales figures of both cameras that are capable of recording RAW formats and PC sales of the hub component necessary for a Lr Mobile workflow are not thriving but in many cases falling significantly. The data is there. You only need to use Google and look for yourself. Check the recent quarterly and annual report from Nikon and Canon ... check the YOY unit sales from HP, Apple, Asus and Dell ... then after YOU have done your homework ... come back and share YOUR findings.

[disneytoy]

A very useful update for me is in the Slideshow module. You can export as a PDF, but now you can input the exact dimensions. Prior to that it would only output 16:9. Now I can quickly generate a nice PDF book to the proportions I need in a PDF. This is a great way to get a collection from a slideshow onto a phone or tablet, or in an email.

If only Adobe would allow us to control video export options, Why no 4k? What about different codec settings.

All in all I like this feature.,

[jjj]

Butch...show me these statistics you talk about. Show me how large the shrinking professional market is and then show me these stats regarding the consumer market...and don't forget the possible billions of middle class consumers arising from China and India. You throw around these "shrinking consumer market" concepts...but please provide the stats on both the potential size of the professional market and the potential size of the consumer market.

I know which one has shrunk in the last 10 years and which one has increased 10 fold.

Now Butch...please tell me where the biggest potential of future revenue and growth would come from?

Adobe's business is firmly aimed at the professional market, not the consumer one. Even CC is just a part of their overall product line which is even more business oriented.
Premiere and Ps Elements are minor products.

[hjulenissen]

Clearly the Internet or some form of it has vastly surpassed any other form for sharing and displaying images taken by cameras. Clearly the majority of those images on the Internet are viewed through a mobile device. PC's are quickly fading as a means to view images.

You seem to be under the impression that the number of users or the number or image views equals significance or money in the bank. It does not. Only if you can make those customers actually pay something for your service (or make someone else pay for the privilege of "owning" those customers, or knowledge about the customers behavioral details). Sony sells a load of mobile phones, yet bleed money in their mobile division.

While the number of cell phones far out number the number of interchangeable-lens cameras out there, I tend to believe that it would be a bad business move by Canon or Nikon to stop doing enthusiast cameras and start making cell phones. Same thing with Adobe: don't drop a multi billion dollar market just because you hope to get a piece of a multi-multi billion dollar market. Particularly if that market is allready saturated with players that have more natural advantages than yourself.

You nailed it when you said professional photographers are niche markets, one that is shrinking as many consumers have their own cameras. That is precisely why LR is focusing on the mobile platform...it is the means for displaying images going forward.

In the grand scheme, everything is a niche. I see no signs that the number of pros/semi-pros/enthusiasts willing to buy a product like Photoshop are shrinking? Sales of "enthusiast" (i.e. relatively expensive) cameras have exploded in the last decade. While sales will (and does) stagnate after the inital rush of digital transitioners/rapid development, I don't believe that the interest/usage shows any sign of decreasing (thus, one might speculate that there is willingness to pay for good software).

Now, there is a real possibility that Adobe have a hard time coming up with compelling new features for enthusiast/pro photography software. I.e. that they consider Photoshop/Lightroom to be "mature" products, while "new markets" can give them a better return on investement. My inner cynic/conspiracy voice suggests that Adobe might use the CC thing to "force"*) customers into a pay-per-use model for software that will see less investements going forwards, while they re-invest those developers/... into new markets where they are underdogs but have some chance of grabbing a piece of the cake. The view that Adobe themselves does not see further opportunities to improve their core software to the point where people will pay the price is a depressive one.

-h
*) No-one is being forced into anything, but when you have a monopoly and/or a product that customers really prefer over the competition, you are in a position to dictate the licence terms.

[Hans Kruse]

I see no signs that the number of pros/semi-pros/enthusiasts willing to buy a product like Photoshop are shrinking? Sales of "enthusiast" (i.e. relatively expensive) cameras have exploded in the last decade. While sales will (and does) stagnate after the inital rush of digital transitioners/rapid development, I don't believe that the interest/usage shows any sign of decreasing (thus, one might speculate that there is willingness to pay for good software).

I very much agree and see no such signs either. If anybody has statistics to share in this regard that would be very interesting.

[stingray]

Sorry for this long post ... in advance. 
I think Hans has struck a chord  with his initial posting. I know and have met Hans, know his background.  He is well qualified to make the remarks he did and thanks for striking that nerve for so many people.

I am not really that interested in how Adobe organise themselves.  What I do care about is Lightroom as tool.

A. Personally, I think the Adobe development strategy works as follows:
   > Decide to do something along the ratio of marketing needs 90% and existing user needs 10%.
   > Allocate the budget.
   > Complete 80% of the job.
   > Revisit every 5-10 years.
B. Option A is bad enough. My bigger problem is that for release after release I have been seriously disappointed with what Adobe regards as its priority. There seems to be a serious disconnect between the Lightroom user who pays for a subscription and what Adobe want to do.
C. I feel short changed by the promise of ongoing updates.... I waited and waited and waited for Lr 6.... to be totally underwhelmed, and agree with Hans that most of the new features have their roots in Photoshop Camera raw.
D. Adobe give lip service to the concept of workflow.
D. What is worse... I am so used to this situation that I have stopped caring.

Now, When I hear the name Adobe mentioned, what comes to mind is Adobe 80%. Do a good job on the first 80% and then take 10 years to do the next 10%. The final 10% never has a chance. That has been my experience. That is what I think.  I challenge Adobe to change my perspective.

Here is a list of things that came to mind, prompted by Hans post, as I was having a coffee this morning. These arrived in no particular order and are focussed on usability.


   * Leave a folder and return... Why must I search  thru 1000 images to find the image I was previously working on. Most people have at least one card full of images in a folder. Folders have  regularly hundreds or thousands of images.
   * Book module disaster.
   *
      * Cannot place text or graphic on a page or a template.
      * Blurb lock-in. I have nothing against Blurb, just been locked in to Blurb.

   * Cannot manage key metadata fields in Mobile version (title, caption, location). I have no interest in the Develop module on an iPad. If I need to develop I will bring a MacAir.
   * I cannot see the colour profile of an image. [I have to do a round trip to PS or use a third party tool].
   * Cannot customise keyboard shortcuts.  Does Adobe not realise that I have one hand on a keyboard and another on a wand or mouse.  I want to be able to get to my most frequent commands with a single key or really simple mouse click. I do not want to be dropping the wand to use two hands for a keyboard combination.  Basic stuff.  Not rocket science. Please think of the end user.
   * File rename...cannot easily edit the existing file name manually... We have to write down the old file name, F2 to pick a rename template, just use a custom text and type back in most of the same characters again. This happens a lot because I want to remove the word Edit from a filename from a round trip to Photoshop. I am not complaining about Ps adding Edit to the name, that is useful, but I do not want to send a file to someone with the word edit in the filename. I have other reasons to change a file name as well.
   * Cannot properly use metadata in the print module. I would love to properly place a Title under an image rather than a return trip to Photoshop or InDesign and the creation of a clutch of unnecessary intermediate files.
   * Cannot create custom tool panels with our own favourite and most used commands.
   * Cannot have more than a single folder or collection of images available as a window at the same time. This is lazy development of the highest order. All other decent apps I know will allow you have multiple windows inside the same app. Eg. PhotoMechanic. So much for using a database.
   * I should have forward and back arrows, which bring me to the previous image viewed or edited.  This is simple.  You already remember the last image when I leave LR and return,  why not when I leave a folder and return to that folder. Why not have this facility within a folder.
   * Ability to lock an image from future edits.  This is very simple and very useful. Make this lock flag searchable in library and in collections. There are workarounds to this but they are all clunky and do not really work. It is close to the top of the request list, and only there for 4 years.


These are just the thoughts which come to mind in relation to Lightroom. Please do not get me started on Photoshop, InDesign or other Creative Suite apps.

I have lost faith with Adobe a long time ago and will jump ship at the first opportunity.  I have perpetual licences for Lightroom and Creative Suite 6, so can always revert to these when I want to edit pixels. I

Sorry for the long post, could easily make it twice as long, but I needed to get that off my chest.  I am going back to finish my coffee now.

[chez]

I very much agree and see no such signs either. If anybody has statistics to share in this regard that would be very interesting.

Don't have it on hand...but I've read articles regarding the professional photography market is on the decline. I've have witnessed that in my city. As far as enthusiasts go, yes there was a big boom during the last decade and this group will continue to drive the DSLR market. It is precisely this group that is also interested in the mobile / connectivity platforms as many have grown up during the internet age and expect such connectivity to exist. I'd say this group ( enthusiasts ) have very little need for a large remote access database functionality as was requested a few pages back, but have much more need to view image remotely and quickly post for other to view.

When I travel, I like to send images back to friends and family and typically copy images from my camera onto my Ipad, edit those images using a combination of apps and then e-mail them out to friends. I'd love to be able to integrate those images into LR and have those edits that I have done be available to me upon return home. This to me is a very exciting direction...to be able to edit and access images from anywhere using LR and to have those edits be automatically available on my workstation back home.

[digitaldog]

In terms of the comments that most of the new features have their roots in Adobe Photoshop Camera raw, there are reasons this has traditional been the case. Some (many?) LR users are Photoshop users too and there are PS workflows where the two must be on parity (Smart Objects is one example). I can understand why a LR only user might feel they are not getting a fair shake because we usually see new features in ACR first but Develop is ACR, with some features that don't even exist in ACR. If the ACR features are not useful to you, then I think it is valid to complain about that not necessarily what product gets what new feature first. In a prefect world, LR and ACR users would get treated the same and see the features appear at the same time. If LR got features first before ACR, the other group of users would complain so I don't know if there is a solution to make very one happy other than a release features at the same time.

No matter who gets what first, if a feature isn't useful to you, that's something to be concerned about. And with a subscription and the promise of new, regular features, getting said features that are of no use to you is disappointing. In the past, you could see what you're be getting for you money prior to updating and deciding if that was a good buy or not.

It's interesting that Adobe has shown a new feature in LR (DeHaze) rather than ACR so maybe they are trying to appease LR users? It's going to be a really useful new tool and of course, we'll see it in ACR if we see it in LR as again, at some point, Adobe needs the two to be on feature parity.

I agree LR6 may be the most under whelming update in it's history (LR5 wasn't far behind) and worse, LR6 is pretty buggy in areas I'm surprised were not detected prior to release.

[ButchM]

Don't have it on hand...but I've read articles regarding the professional photography market is on the decline.

No one ever stated otherwise.

As far as enthusiasts go, yes there was a big boom during the last decade and this group will continue to drive the DSLR market.

Yes, that was the case for the past decade ... current sales figures are not holding that trend, plus Canon and Nikon have both offered much lower projections for the next few years than they had once hoped. You really should update your research before making such comments  ... current trends are now indicating that the downward slump in the global economy is resulting in a change for industry sales ... there are new factors to consider. Simply repeating historical recollections of the recent past will not suffice to impact the future.

Since you seem to be too lazy to keep up to date and prefer to rely on old, outdated data, I've included some links so you can get caught up.

Quote from Canon 2014 Annual Report concerning the DSLR market:

"2014 Review
In the interchangeable lens digital camera category, unit sales declined year on year, impacted by a generally difficult market environment caused by weak economic trends, particularly in Europe and China." (I find their reference to the burgeoning middle class in China quite revealing ... don't you?)

source: http://www.canon.com/ir/annual/2014/canon-annual-report-2014.pdf

Unit sales reported by Nikon of interchangeable lens cameras for fiscal year 2014 were down 1.23 million units and they are projecting even lower numbers for 2015 ... and don't expect to get back to their 2013 sales level until 2017.

source: http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/ar/pdf/nr2014/14annual_e.pdf

I'm sorry ... current information does not paint a future that is as bright for the coming decade as it was for the past decade and certainly are not indicative of an "expanding" market.

[ButchM]

I agree LR6 may be the most under whelming update in it's history (LR5 wasn't far behind) and worse, LR6 is pretty buggy in areas I'm surprised were not detected prior to release.

I agree, the attention to detail level has dropped considerably since the era of Lr3-4.

[chez]

No one ever stated otherwise.

Yes, that was the case for the past decade ... current sales figures are not holding that trend, plus Canon and Nikon have both offered much lower projections for the next few years than they had once hoped. You really should update your research before making such comments  ... current trends are now indicating that the downward slump in the global economy is resulting in a change for industry sales ... there are new factors to consider. Simply repeating historical recollections of the recent past will not suffice to impact the future.

Since you seem to be too lazy to keep up to date and prefer to rely on old, outdated data, I've included some links so you can get caught up.

Quote from Canon 2014 Annual Report concerning the DSLR market:

"2014 Review
In the interchangeable lens digital camera category, unit sales declined year on year, impacted by a generally difficult market environment caused by weak economic trends, particularly in Europe and China." (I find their reference to the burgeoning middle class in China quite revealing ... don't you?)

source: http://www.canon.com/ir/annual/2014/canon-annual-report-2014.pdf

Unit sales reported by Nikon of interchangeable lens cameras for fiscal year 2014 were down 1.23 million units and they are projecting even lower numbers for 2015 ... and don't expect to get back to their 2013 sales level until 2017.

source: http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/ar/pdf/nr2014/14annual_e.pdf

I'm sorry ... current information does not paint a future that is as bright for the coming decade as it was for the past decade and certainly are not indicative of an "expanding" market.

Butch, even in the current decline in DSLR sales, you have any idea how they stack up to the hey days of film camera sales. I'll give you a hint...sales today are better than the film days. So all this gloom and doom you are posting is nothing but fear mongering. Sure the sales are down compared to when DLSR's exploded onto the market...did you think they would continue their horrid pace?

Like I said, the current economic climate, as you so nicely highlighted, is causing a major impact on sales. Like any cycle, this will end and camera sales will once again pick up, along with stereo and other electronic equipment.

Nikon claiming they'll get back to 2013 sales figures in a few years is also a good sign. Take into account billions of potential customers in China and India which are starting to acquire disposable income and I'd say the market for new Adobe customers is quite good going forward.

I believe these new customers will expect connectivity and integration into the Internet and mobile devices. The days of the isolated workstation are going away like to dinosaurs. Our entire company has switched to laptops for all developers due to their mobility and to iPads or Surface Pro's for everyone else. Our products, very industrial and conservative, are all migrating to the mobile platform as that is what the customer based is used to. I don't see Adobe having any choice but to embrace mobile workflows.

[ButchM]

Butch, even in the current decline in DSLR sales, you have any idea how they stack up to the hey days of film camera sales. I'll give you a hint...sales today are better than the film days. So all this gloom and doom you are posting is nothing but fear mongering. Sure the sales are down compared to when DLSR's exploded onto the market...did you think they would continue their horrid pace?

Like I said, the current economic climate, as you so nicely highlighted, is causing a major impact on sales. Like any cycle, this will end and camera sales will once again pick up, along with stereo and other electronic equipment.

Nikon claiming they'll get back to 2013 sales figures in a few years is also a good sign. Take into account billions of potential customers in China and India which are starting to acquire disposable income and I'd say the market for new Adobe customers is quite good going forward.

I believe these new customers will expect connectivity and integration into the Internet and mobile devices. The days of the isolated workstation are going away like to dinosaurs. Our entire company has switched to laptops for all developers due to their mobility and to iPads or Surface Pro's for everyone else. Our products, very industrial and conservative, are all migrating to the mobile platform as that is what the customer based is used to. I don't see Adobe having any choice but to embrace mobile workflows.

Where is your supporting data? Or do you formulate your assertions based purely on blind faith?

Support your position with a few facts please. Not empty rhetoric contorted to fit your opinion.

Or don't you practice what you preach? I would think a project manager of high esteem and accomplishment would have the links to such data quite handy ... considering you are a self-proclaimed expert on the subject.

I await your enlightenment.

[chez]

Where is your supporting data? Or do you formulate your assertions based purely on blind faith?

Support your position with a few facts please. Not empty rhetoric contorted to fit your opinion.

Or don't you practice what you preach? I would think a project manager of high esteem and accomplishment would have the links to such data quite handy ... considering you are a self-proclaimed expert on the subject.

I await your enlightenment.

Here you go Butch...of note is that sales in 2014...even though they are down drastically from the hey days of DSLR sales...are still greater than the best ever year for film SLR sales. Other thing to note is the DSLR sales in the last 15 years have outsold film camera sales since cameras were first invented. That is a lot of new customers that have just entered the camera market. If I was a smart product manager, I'd be looking at what these new customers need and want from LR....not the old very small niche market from yesteryear.

Need more stats Butch or is that enough for you?

[ButchM]

Here you go Butch...of note is that sales in 2014...even though they are down drastically from the hey days of DSLR sales...are still greater than the best ever year for film SLR sales. Other thing to note is the DSLR sales in the last 15 years have outsold film camera sales since cameras were first invented. That is a lot of new customers that have just entered the camera market. If I was a smart product manager, I'd be looking at what these new customers need and want from LR....not the old very small niche market from yesteryear.

Need more stats Butch or is that enough for you?

What stats? You didn't offer anything but words ... Where are your links to the supporting data? ... so far you have offered nothing but hearsay and your supposed recollection ... you can type anything, that doesn't mean it's true ... show me links to the actual data points  that support your premise .... I'm growing weary of your tactics. You demand I back up my points ... yet you share nothing but your observations in return. I guess some folks are all show and no go. Isn't it time you walk the walk .... and skip the talk?

Not to mention you seem to have a general misunderstanding of the difference between sales and market growth.

[chez]

What stats? You didn't offer anything but words ... Where are your links to the supporting data? ... so far you have offered nothing but hearsay and your supposed recollection ... you can type anything, that doesn't mean it's true ... show me links to the actual data points  that support your premise .... I'm growing weary of your tactics. You demand I back up my points ... yet you share nothing but your observations in return. I guess some folks are all show and no go. Isn't it time you walk the walk .... and skip the talk?

Not to mention you seem to have a general misunderstanding of the difference between sales and market growth.

Here yeh be Butchy...take your time to digest.

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/common/cr200.pdf