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Author Topic: longest digital full frame exposures  (Read 9094 times)

HSakols

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longest digital full frame exposures
« on: May 20, 2015, 04:21:39 pm »

Night Photographers,
I'm curious what the longest exposures you have used with your full frame digital camera that was good enough.  For example do you ever leave your shutter open for over 10min or does one just get too much noise that can't be fixed in lightroom.
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Rainer SLP

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2015, 04:39:38 pm »

Night Photographers,
I'm curious what the longest exposures you have used with your full frame digital camera that was good enough.  For example do you ever leave your shutter open for over 10 min or does one just get too much noise that can't be fixed in lightroom.

Hi,

I can not speak for the digital cameras of today but when I started my Astrophotography using telescopes with a modified 20D (removed the UV/IR filter) and a Rebel the noise was awful and especially what we call hot pixels and that is why I decided to get special astrocameras.

I think the best way to find it out is do some tests. One thing is for sure depending on where you take images, you will have more or less a red to yellow tint of the image due to light pollution. All those nice street lamps, billboards, etc.

If you want to fix noise you need so called Dark frames.

You will perhaps get vignetting but that can be fixed with so called Flat frames

Also you can take off the chip signature with a Bias frame.

Also to get a better signal over noise ratio then you shoot the same scene several times and then stack them ...

If in your area is an Astronomy club call them and talk to the astrophotographers. They will for sure explain you how all that works

 ;)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 07:38:22 pm by Rainer SLP »
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Paul2660

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2015, 07:00:43 pm »

In my experience, it depends on the camera.  For example an older Canon 1ds or ads MKII, not very long, even with the dark frame that the 1ds MKII implemented.

With a Canon 6D, on a cool night, maybe 1 hour, 2 hours etc.  The limiter is the dark frame.  You need the dark frame that normally follows this type of exposure to map out the stuck pixels and excessive noise.  The dark frame will be the same amount of time that the previous exposure, so for 1 hour exposed, then you need 1 hour extra dark frame.  Yes, this can be turned off, but on longer single exposures the dark frame is important.  In most cameras this is called long exposure noise reduction or something similar.

As previously mentioned, stacking is by far a better way to go, especially if you are after star motion.  There are a lot more positives for this over the single long frame.  Note, if you still have some film, then film is a totally different option. 

I try to shoot with the moon, for many reasons and try to get out 1 a month if the skies will allow it (clouds). 

You can read more about my technique, which is nothing unique for stacking, just put down in some details in this article I wrote.

[url=http://photosofarkansas.com/2014/09/23/092314-using-stacking-for-better-night-photography-results/]http://photosofarkansas.com/2014/09/23/092314-using-stacking-for-better-night-photography-results/[/url]

This method just gives you so much more natural light, I have never preferred painting for most work.

Paul

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Peter McLennan

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2015, 11:43:22 pm »

Great article, Paul  Thanks for sharing that workflow.
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HSakols

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2015, 09:47:18 am »

Paul,
Thank you for the article.  This was just what I was looking for in that you give examples of single long exposures and then the stacked image.  I guess I will be looking at photoshop CS6.  Your night landscapes are amazing! 

Hugh
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Rainer SLP

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Paul2660

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2015, 12:50:24 pm »

Glad to help out and thanks for the compliments.  I find this type of photography to be personally very rewarding.  I first time I realized just how much illumination the moon can provide was a huge turning point for me, then the discovery of stacking which allows such a great final product, all with natural illumination. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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HSakols

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2015, 11:28:50 am »

Paul,
I notice you use a Nikon 14-35 2.8 zoom.  I have the 16-35 f4 and a 20mm 2.8 prime.  I"m wondering if it might be better to use the prime lens at f4 rather than the zoom at f4?  I know I just have to try it myself. Also, what about focus stacking.  I see that you did not need it in your Haw Creek example.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2015, 12:22:06 pm »

Paul,
I notice you use a Nikon 14-35 2.8 zoom.  I have the 16-35 f4 and a 20mm 2.8 prime.  I"m wondering if it might be better to use the prime lens at f4 rather than the zoom at f4?  I know I just have to try it myself. Also, what about focus stacking.  I see that you did not need it in your Haw Creek example.

Hi,

It depends on output size, and viewing distance. If you use hyperfocal focusing on e.g. a D810, a 14mm lens at f/4 will be in focus from 16.32 ft (4.958 m) to infinity when focused at 32.78 ft (10.03 m). When you reduce the output size from 24.5 x 16.4 inch, or view from a larger distance, the DOF increases further and you can (hyper)focus closer.

Longer focal lengths of course give shallower DOF, and may require focus-stacking for nearer features that must be in perfect focus, but then your workflow gets complicated pretty fast (you'll lose the automatic choice that's offered while moonlight changes the landscape illumination). A 16mm at f/4, focused at 41.73 ft (12.72 m), will be in pixel perfect focus from 20.74 ft (6.328 m) to infinity, and gradually gets softer at nearer distances.

Refocusing of the landscape will also increase the gaps in star trails, so you'll need additional software like 'Startracer' even more.

Cheers,
Bart
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Paul2660

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2015, 02:59:34 pm »

Paul,
I notice you use a Nikon 14-35 2.8 zoom.  I have the 16-35 f4 and a 20mm 2.8 prime.  I"m wondering if it might be better to use the prime lens at f4 rather than the zoom at f4?  I know I just have to try it myself. Also, what about focus stacking.  I see that you did not need it in your Haw Creek example.

I have not used the 20mm F2.8, but have the the 20mm 1.8 and have used it on a few night shoots.  The 14-24 is still my main lens to use since in my locations, I often find 14mm is really needed for the best view of the sky.  The 14-24 even at F 2.8 has almost no coma, at least mine doesn't and for night work that is a big plus.  I find that at F3.2 to 3.5 I can easily get a good shot from around 11 feet to full infinity, the foreground may be a bit soft, but it's a nigh shot.  In the Haw Creek example in my article, the rocks in the foreground were about 10 feet away from where I had my tripod. 

The 20mm 1.4 still has quite a bit of coma in the F1.4 to F2.8 range, but it starts to get manageable my F3.5.  However I can get a wider view with no vignetting (almost) with the 14-24, so I always lead off with it.  The 14-24's only real issue is flare, and you really have to watch where the moon is in the sky as even with the moon well out of the frame, the 14-24 @ 14mm will pull flare.  The flare moves with each frame as the moon location is moving also.  This can add a lot of extra work in post processing.  I always have a flare buster with me to help block the flare.  The 20mm 1.8 will flare but not as bad as the 14-24. 

In regards to focus stacking, I never really have considered that for this type of work, instead attempting to set up the shot so that the hyperlocal range of the lens covers me.  The biggest issue with a stack solution is movement of the camera.  Even the slightest touch can move the camera enough that you will a misalignment when you run the stack modes.  This can be fixed sometimes if you try aligning the layers before running the stack modes, but it won't always get the issue fixed.  At night, I tend to set the focus and then never move it again. 

There is one solution to help, and that is take a final series of segments at a higher aperture, say F6.3 or so.  This will help get the landscape portions of the image in a bit better focus, you just extend the time of the last few segments.  This will more than likely overexpose the sky/stars but for these shots, I am only looking to improve on my landscape portions, not the sky.  As I am using an external intervalometer MC-36, it's very easy to reset the overall exposure time without moving the camera. 

I have not used the 16-35 F4 at night, but I did use it outdoors and found the corners quite a bit soft until F6.3, so for night work, I ruled it out since I felt it would be way too soft at F4. 

The other huge disappointing lens from Nikon is their very expensive 24 1.4.  This lens has more coma aberrations that the 20mm 1.8, and really can't be used for much night shots unless you are in the F4 or higher range.   As I have come to discover really no one can make a fast wide @ 24mm without coma, at least from Sigma, Nikon or Canon.  Coma is by far the most destructive form of aberration that you have to fight in nigh photography, especially if you working a Milky Way shot of star freeze.  In both of these, you need to be as wide open as you can go, without introducing coma.  The Sigma 35mm F1.4 is amazing in this regard, sadly in my locations, it's just not wide enough to work with, however if I was out west I would own one for sure.

Paul

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Paul Caldwell
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sniper

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2015, 06:03:11 pm »

Stunning shots Paul.

 On long night exposures do you have a problem with the camera misting up? I've had it happen.
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Paul2660

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 04:35:38 pm »

Stunning shots Paul.

 On long night exposures do you have a problem with the camera misting up? I've had it happen.

I have had issues on cool nights if I move the camera, putting it in my pack or car or both.  When it comes back out into the night air, it will fog up.  But as long as the camera stays out I have not seen any issues. 

One thing I did forget one night was to check the outer element for trash and ended up shooting all night with a pretty large piece of trash on the front.  Made for a interesting clean up.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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HSakols

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2015, 10:15:47 am »

This D300 kind of iced up during a winter night.  The photographer fell asleep. 
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John R

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Re: longest digital full frame exposures
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2015, 03:15:13 pm »

And I thought it was the latest fashion- a camera dressed in denim!

JR
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