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Author Topic: Metal Prints  (Read 10652 times)

wmchauncey

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Metal Prints
« on: May 18, 2015, 03:32:09 pm »

I've never printed, but...now I'm toying with the idea of making metal prints for the Art Show circuit and local Galleries.
Is it even economically feasible as these galleries want 50% of sale price?  What gear is usually used?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2015, 04:34:05 pm »

You mean to print it yourself? Do not think it is feasible.

bargainguy

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2015, 06:18:21 pm »

It's a sublimation process and beyond the scope of most homeowners.  This is a good description:

Sublimation onto metal is a new, cutting edge way to reproduce an image. Sublimation itself is the process of going from a solid to a gas, back to a solid - skipping the liquid state.

The image is first printed onto a transfer paper, and then is adhered to pretreated aluminum (other substrates such as tile, wood, or glass are available).

The aluminum and transfer paper are placed into a custom heat press, which is heated to temperatures exceeding 380 degrees Fahrenheit. While being subjected to extreme heat the dyes from the transfer paper turn into a gas, are pressed into the surface of the metal, and then solidify into the treated aluminum. As the dyes cool they are permanently infused beneath the surface of the metal substrate.
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dgberg

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2015, 07:33:00 pm »

Very doable if you can find good reliable used equipment.
I found a used Epson 4880 plus a used Geo. knight 16x20 heat press.
Add about $1500 for extra ink transfer paper and your Chromaluxe metals.
I spent around $3,500 to start with used equipment only to find out the Sawgrass driver is only Pc and I am all Mac. So it was more money to get that all straightened out.
Do your homework, there is a learning curve. There has been such a demand latey I have added dye sublimation as an additional workshop.
You might want to try purchasing from a major vendor to start. See if they sell and at what price before jumping in head first.

Ps:
If they want 50% you may not make any money even if you keystone (triple) your cost.
Sell for $150, pay $75 commission and $50 for your print that leaves $25 for you.
Not worth the effort.
That means you have to sell a metal print you paid $50 for at least $200 , pretty tough during the present economy. All that to make $50???
You have to negotiate that 50% commission lower to make that work.
Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 08:02:04 pm by Dan Berg »
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Landscapes

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2015, 10:12:36 pm »

Ps:
If they want 50% you may not make any money even if you keystone (triple) your cost.
Sell for $150, pay $75 commission and $50 for your print that leaves $25 for you.
Not worth the effort.
That means you have to sell a metal print you paid $50 for at least $200 , pretty tough during the present economy. All that to make $50???
You have to negotiate that 50% commission lower to make that work.
Just my opinion.
I fully agree that the numbers just don't work out if your business is selling wholesale to an art shop or gallery that will take 50%.  Its one thing to print on canvas where you are able to markup 5 times to arrive at your wholesale price and the store/gallery doubles this to arrive at their selling price.  I can produce a stretched canvas for about $30, which I can wholesale for $150, and which might sell for $300.  But if now I'm paying at least $100 for someone else to do it, even if I double that to $200, and they double it to arrive at a sale price of $400, I'm still not happy making only $100 from a $400 sale.  The trouble even is that for the same size of canvas that I'm doing for $30 myself, there is no way that the equivalent metal print size is $100, so the customer has to be willing to pay more money for a smaller size.

There is nothing wrong with having some small samples done to show what is possible, but no way would I even put up so much money to have stock of something that might not even sell.  I know these metal prints are getting very popular, and I see them everywhere more and more now, but they aren't helping the bottom line of the photographer.  The numbers just don't work and if you're a photographer, you're either having to sell these at the upper end of the price scale, or sell them just because you have to and hope to make up by selling just prints or canvases, or you simply aren't making enough money to do this for a living. 
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wmchauncey

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2015, 05:05:04 am »

It would seem that a reevaluation is called for...thanks for the slaps upside the head guys, appreciated.      ;D
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bargainguy

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2015, 07:17:11 pm »

Last week, I ordered a 24x36" metal print from Adorama.  Turns out it actually came from Aluminyze LLC, also in Brooklyn NY.  Methinks Adorama is a front/subcontractor to Aluminyze, as the print would have been more expensive directly from Aluminyze - I checked before ordering.

Here's what it looks like on the wall.  Really beautiful colors that pop.  Even the missus, who was a little wary of the frameless print concept, is impressed.

adorama metal print by Don, on Flickr
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wmchauncey

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2015, 07:56:24 pm »

I heard you all but...I do wonder about this technique using an inkjet printer.     
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkN0wQSXHQo
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Landscapes

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2015, 09:17:44 pm »

I heard you all but...I do wonder about this technique using an inkjet printer.     
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkN0wQSXHQo

Nice stuff.. but I think this will only work on images where resolution is low, and you're looking for the abstract look.  I'm certainly all for finding a way to do metal print in-house, but I don't think this would solve the needs of most photographers.
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dgberg

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 08:23:46 am »

I heard you all but...I do wonder about this technique using an inkjet printer.    
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkN0wQSXHQo

Go to my my web blog if you like, I have an article showing the process.
This you can do on any printer that has a straight through feed like the 3800/3880.
Just check your material thicknesses and please please set your platen to widest..
Dass material is so over priced. Get a quart or gallon of Inkaid brush 2 coats on, let dry and you are ready to print.
Very crafty sort of results but agree it does not produce high resolution images.
The dye sub process is the way to go if that is what you are looking for.
You can purchase blank pre coated metals to print on from Booksmart Studios and others but it is very expensive.

disneytoy

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2015, 12:46:00 am »

Landscape,  That $30 canvas you describe, what size would that be?

Also, i have a feeling these metal prints are a fad and will lose favor soon. They are interesting and glossy but feel cold. Now that all the Wedding photographers are pushing metal prints, their uniqueness will diminish.
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Landscapes

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2015, 02:37:00 am »

Landscape,  That $30 canvas you describe, what size would that be?

Also, i have a feeling these metal prints are a fad and will lose favor soon. They are interesting and glossy but feel cold. Now that all the Wedding photographers are pushing metal prints, their uniqueness will diminish.

Let's say 20x40.  Here are the numbers to run them real quick.  

So to make this canvas, you would need 4 feet.  (Canvas size would be 24"x44", so lets round up to 48" since you will never get to use the whole roll).  Lets say this canvas is $100 for a 40 foot roll (actually $98 at IT Supplies if it is Epson Exhibition Matte).  So that's $10 in canvas.

Next comes ink.  This depends on the image of course, and can be anywhere around 6-10ml.  Lets use 10ml to play it safe.  A 300ml cart costs $140, so lets say 50 cents per ml.  This comes out to $5 in ink.  

Next is coating.  It runs about $100 per gallon, and honestly, I'm not sure how much of the stuff I use, but let me just be generous with the quantity and call it 50ml for several coats.  Working this out, and even rounding up, lets call it under $2 for the liquid lamination.  (time is of course not included in any of these calculations... we are just going with fixed costs, and you of course already need to have the spray gun).

So to make the canvas, we've got $10 + $5 + $2 = $17

Next we got stretcher bars.  I have no idea what others pay, but lets say roughly $1 per foot.  We need 120 inches (20+20+40+40), so that is 10 feet exactly, but of course there are losses here too, so lets call this $12 instead of $10 which it would be for exactly 10 feet.

Next I use black tape along the edges.  Once again, we need 10 feet of this stuff.  A 60 foot roll costs about $30, so that's 50 cents per foot, so $5 for tape.  

Lastly, some wire, 2 D rings, and 2 screws... certainly less than $1.

So we got $17 + $12 + $1 = $30  

OMG... I wasn't even trying to hit this number, it was just a ball part figure.  With canvas, there will of course be some waste.  If you are printing a gradient sky and get a nasty cotton seed right in the middle, you might have to trash that piece... so there is a good $15 gone easily.  But as you can see, using just fixed costs, and I did round up even, you can produce a stretched canvas yourself for a fairly cheap rate.  If you do gallery wrap, its the same amount of canvas, and just a little more ink, but you're saving on the tape, so this is a bonus and can in fact be cheaper.  I personally like using black tape because I hate the mirror edge look, its hard to line up when stretching, and the corners get damaged too easily.  Oh... I forgot the cost of staples.  Hmmmm... 5000 cost about $15, and I use maybe 50 per canvas, so that works out to 15 cents for staples. :D

Anyway... now price out a metallic print that someone else has to do in the 20x40 size and you find you cannot get anywhere close to this, and I would guess easily over $100.

For a little more money, you can do what bill t. does, which is to mount the canvas onto gator and pop it into a frame.  These days, they make pretty cheap moulding, gorgeous 3"-4" moulding, and although this is I'm sure in the neighborhood of $5, if not more per foot, the finished product of mounted canvas in a nice frame is classy.  You do need more specialized equipment to make decent frames I think, whereas making your stretcher bars can be kind of rough since nobody sees the edges, but it can still be done at home.

Now of course with a metal print, you just pick it up, or even get it shipped to you, so there is no work involved.  But it seems like in order to make any money selling photography, you essentially do have to hire yourself to do the work and you pay yourself a certain amount of labor.  I'm happy making $25 or $30 an hour doing it myself and keeping that money.  If it takes me 2 hours to make the stretched canvas, which cost me $30 in material costs, it means I'm making $70 extra, using the metal print example if I was to pay $100 for someone else to make it.  So if I now sell this wholesale to the store for $200, my profit on the stretched canvas is $170 versus only $100.  

Now don't get me wrong, if I was selling 20 pieces a week, I'd happily have someone else do it and collect $100 on each of those 20 pieces because I would hate to have to produce 20 a week myself.  But if I'm only selling 1 or 2, I simply cannot afford to pay someone else to do the work.  I need to keep every dollar.

As an aside, when selling just paper prints, its amazing how these go for even less than what you'd pay a high end place to print up.  They typically charge $10 per square foot to print on luster, but when I sell small pieces wholesale, your standard prints to tourists, I'm only able to charge about this exact same rate.  So what's really going on is that I'm using my photography to run a print shop.  It just so happens that my pictures are being sold, but all I'm doing is making money on selling the ink and paper.  But that's a whole other discussion.

EDIT:  Opppps.. forgot to add in the tape actually.  It should be $17 + $12 +$5 +1 = $35... but still in the ballpark.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 03:03:17 am by Landscapes »
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disneytoy

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2015, 04:24:07 am »

Wow Landscape,

Great info. We seem like kindred spirits. I always do the same calculations. In fact I even use Exhibition Canvas Matte as well:-)  I haven't sold a lot of canvases. But the last one I did around the same size was $135. I'm just starting out, so I can't turn away any business. I have a 9890 for my own photography and try to do outside printing to cover ink and media costs. And keep the printer happy.

I've been printing on Epson Exhibition Watercolor @ $380 for a 50' roll (44") It is very nice, but very hard to  get a flawless print. At$8-9 a linear foot it can get expensive when tiny fibers brush off and reveal whit paper spots.  That just happened to me on a 40x60" print.

PS What tape are you using? That sounds interesting.

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Landscapes

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2015, 01:19:16 pm »

Wow Landscape,

Great info. We seem like kindred spirits. I always do the same calculations. In fact I even use Exhibition Canvas Matte as well:-)  I haven't sold a lot of canvases. But the last one I did around the same size was $135. I'm just starting out, so I can't turn away any business. I have a 9890 for my own photography and try to do outside printing to cover ink and media costs. And keep the printer happy.

I've been printing on Epson Exhibition Watercolor @ $380 for a 50' roll (44") It is very nice, but very hard to  get a flawless print. At$8-9 a linear foot it can get expensive when tiny fibers brush off and reveal whit paper spots.  That just happened to me on a 40x60" print.

PS What tape are you using? That sounds interesting.



This is the one I use... and its even cheaper than what I pay locally! LOL

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/812203-REG/General_Brand_001UPCG255MBLA_General_Brands_Pro_Gaffer_s.html

For the record, I do also think that a gallery wrap is very nice, but at the stores, I see too many of them with damaged corners.  When the canvas gets folded over multiple times at the edge, even if it hasn't cracked at that point, once simple bump will be the end of it.  The other thing I don't like is that mirrored edge.  Its really hard to get it to line up properly, and nobody tries, they just print it bigger, so on the sides, you clearly see where the picture begins to repeat 1 cm away from the edge.  Diagonal lines look especially bad because they go off in the other direction.  It takes less work to do a gallery wrap, and is in fact even cheaper cause its only a little more ink, but the two above negatives just don't work for me.

I wish I had the bigger printer as well, but no room.  People really do want bigger sizes.

Its a shame about the metal prints because I do think they are gorgeous, although I am a bit worried about longevity given that they use dye inks, but it still doesn't help my bottom line to offer them.  I wouldn't turn down a customer request to provide this, but if all of a sudden each sale became a metal print versus a canvas, I'd need to sell 3 times as many pieces in order to make the same amount of money which is impossible.
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enduser

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2015, 03:26:19 am »

We use OnOne's "Pefect Resize" to  create the wrap extensions.  There are selections for either reflect or stretch, and with variations for blur. You can also vary the opacity and background color of the wrap edge. We also have a digital artist who can do a narrow blur along the actual image-to-wrap line/

All this gives you some leeway for placement. It takes time, but I have to say, respectfully, it looks a bit better than black gaffer tape edging.
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Landscapes

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2015, 12:23:36 pm »

It takes time, but I have to say, respectfully, it looks a bit better than black gaffer tape edging.

Fair enough, but this still doesn't solve the dented corners issue.  Even with 3 heavy coats of timeless, even though the canvas passes the crease test, in the corner where the canvas is folded over twice, so it comes to a point essentially, this area is a weak spot.  When I see the other canvases at the store with these chips of ink missing, I'm not sure if I as a buying customer would want to pay full price.  Perhaps if you're using a solvent printer, those canvases are bullet proof.  Or if you're using lamination from a roll and heat sealing it on, this might also be much tougher.  But I find with liquid lamination, the corners are always a problem.

Now I did discover that when I use Simply Elegant Every Matte Canvas, which is 100% polyster and thinner and has less weight, this can take a gallery wrap much better than my traditional Epson canvas, but it does look a little cheaper for sure, and hence the cheaper price.

(Mind you, I should also point out that I use a mix of 80% matte and 20% gloss coating.  If it was full gloss, this I think would provide a layer that is much more durable, but full on gloss has its own set of problems and the reflections are just terrible.  People do say that love the matte finish.)
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dgberg

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2015, 02:44:27 pm »

You get no complaints using that high of a matte concentrate?
I started with a 50/50 mix some years ago and even that level of matte looked like you layed waxed paper over the print. The clarity was just destroyed.
After years of doing tons of these we offer a semi matte at 75% gloss/25% matte and the most popular semigloss at 90% gloss/10% matte. Both look fantastic.
I have 2 laminators one has a hot roll which is required to laminate our Seal over laminate.
The Print Guard Luster looks fantastic and tough as nails. Again the matte looks like you put 2 sheets of waxed paper over the print.

Landscapes

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2015, 06:24:27 pm »

You get no complaints using that high of a matte concentrate?

Not at all.  I decided to do a test to show this.  Found a nice pic online from Kodak to use with rich colors.  First picture shows all 3 samples together.  a) 80-90% gloss b) 20% gloss / 80% matte and c) uncoated.  Granted, the light bulb might be a touch closer to the glossy one, but still, the shine is very obvious.  Each little sample still had a curl in it which made it ideal for showing the reflections at various angles. (on the left is the high gloss, on the right is the 80% matte, and on the bottom is the uncoated sample)

Next 3 pictures show more of a close up underneath the light in pretty much example the same place.  Even the 20% gloss one still has glossy qualities.  Using 100% matte is quite dull, and not only that, but you almost get a layer of talcum powder left over on the canvas, so you have to add in a bit of gloss for sure.  But as you can see, the high matte content still looks quite nice in my opinion and really controls the reflections.  Also, high amounts of gloss are difficult to coat.  If you don't get your passes just right with the spray gun, this will be obvious.  But with my mixture, it pretty much doesn't matter how you apply it and it still looks great, as long as you don't get little hairs in there of course. :)
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Landscapes

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2015, 06:32:49 pm »

Oh.. and one more thing.  You will also note that when you look at all the, the bottom one, the uncoated one looks lighter.  The coating really does kill a few percent of light transmission, so when printing on canvas, you gotta make your profile after the coating is applied.  So the uncoated sample looks a little bright because it does print brighter initially, and the coating kills some of the light transmission and hence, the final colors should be fairly close to what they should be.  I don't have a different profile the matte/glossy versions as I only use the 80% mostly, and hence this is what I used to make the profile.

This is also why I have to wonder why these paper and printer manufactures provide profiles for canvas.  You simply cannot sell canvas that isn't coated, and once its coated, you can clearly see the image looks darker if you're not using a profile, never mind a bit of color shifting.  So you have to make a custom profile after you apply the coating, and the printed image will initially come out lighter and darken up once the coating is applied.
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davidh202

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Re: Metal Prints
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 10:45:01 pm »

You get no complaints using that high of a matte concentrate?
I started with a 50/50 mix some years ago and even that level of matte looked like you layed waxed paper over the print. The clarity was just destroyed.
 

That's because your not supposed to batch mix the finishes together and apply multiple coats  ...
Premier Art specifcally says to put  the initial coats on with gloss, (I usually do 1 or 2 with gloss), and then apply the final coat with your choice of luster or matte finish. This method retains most of the image clarity ;-)    
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 10:46:32 pm by davidh202 »
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