Auto White and Black point setting in a Preset

[dmward]

Lightroom CC permits setting the White and Black point for an image by holding down the shift key and clicking on the word Whites or Blacks in the develop module. The slider then moves to the proper position.

How do I add this automated select to a preset?

I would like to add this adjustment to my image on import.

[digitaldog]

Lightroom CC permits setting the White and Black point for an image by holding down the shift key and clicking on the word Whites or Blacks in the develop module. The slider then moves to the proper position.
How do I add this automated select to a preset?

You can't really. You can look at differing images, use the overlay to set a preset but that set of values is fixed for that preset and it may or may not be appropriate for other images.
The slider doesn't move to the proper position, you do, based on the overlay. You can't automate this, YMMV.

[dmward]

That's what I thought.
Its a nice feature for finding the white and black point. Would be nice if it could be added to a preset to save having to take the time to do it for each image when doing a preliminary edit on a large group of images. i.e. an event.

I've built camera profiles for my XT-1 and A7M2 that apply a linear tone curve which seems to eliminate the toe and shoulder roll off. Being able to include an adjustment to the white point and black point would, it seems to me. ensure the maximum tonal range for each image. That's a desirable starting point. Especially when working with a large group of images.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

You can apply Auto Tone, either on import, or when switching to Develop Module.

[dmward]

Auto Tone, in my experience goes well beyond what I want to accomplish.
It seems to be an algorithm that Adobe created that attempts to create an optimum tonal curve which I expect includes the shoulder and toe that is common at the highlight and shadow ends of a tone curve. I don't want that. I just want the linear straight line stretched to the white point and the black point.

The objective is to have the linear tone curve extend across the dynamic range available. My objective is to have a starting point with a full range linear tonality without compression curves at the toe and shoulder.

[digitaldog]

Auto Tone, in my experience goes well beyond what I want to accomplish.

Very much so! And like most 'auto' anything's, sometimes it works pretty well, sometimes it doesn't work well at all.
Stick to using your method of viewing the overlay and manually moving the sliders. Then if you need to apply to 10 more similar images, copy and paste the settings.

[dmward]

That seems to be the way it will have to be accomplished.

[Geraldo Garcia]

The slider doesn't move to the proper position, you do, based on the overlay. You can't automate this, YMMV.

Well... it certainly looks like an automated feature to me. Try this: open a "flat" image (no blacks and no whites), hold shift and double click the word "white" of the white point slider. Do the same with the "black". Looks like lightroom is guessing the black and white point automatically. If it can do it in one image I can't see why it would not do be able to do it on a preset.

[digitaldog]

What you want to do is use the modifier key as you move the sliders (here and other areas of LR/ACR) to see where to set them based on what you do or do not wish to clip. Saturation clipping too. You probably want to fine tune each image or each of a group representative of the others, then copy and paste. There's no rules, it's subjective. Look at Greg Gorman's work, his style has no regard for shadow detail as he's rendering the image based on what he wants for each image. You can't automate that with an Auto anything.

[Geraldo Garcia]

I do agree we should do it manually based on the need of each image and what works for one would not work for another.
But... as Lightroom do offer an automated alternative (or starting point) for setting the white and black points, and as it actually works nicely most of the time, I can't see why adobe would not let you use it on a preset.

[digitaldog]

Well... it certainly looks like an automated feature to me. Try this: open a "flat" image (no blacks and no whites), hold shift and double click the word "white" of the white point slider. Do the same with the "black". Looks like lightroom is guessing the black and white point automatically. If it can do it in one image I can't see why it would not do be able to do it on a preset.

You're going to have to post a screen capture, I don't know what you're looking at.

[dmward]

This is a new feature in Lightroom 6 (CC).

What I am experimenting with is creating a linear tone curve using DNG Profile Editor to eliminate the toe and shoulder of the default tone curve that Lightroom applies.

This brings the white point and black point, except in extreme situations, into the range of the histogram in Lightroom. This suggests that the camera sensor has not clipped the whites and blacks.

The reason for using this new feature is then to extend the white and black point to the edge of the tonal range. This works quite well when done manually by holding down the shift key and double clicking on the word Whites or Blacks.

What I would like to do is create an import preset that applies the linear camera profile created with DNG Profile editor and then extend the tonal range to the edge using the automated capability. This is much more precise than doing it by hand/eye.

The objective is to arrive at a starting point that has the greatest tonal range available in Lightroom for further editing.

This has nothing to do with creative processing, its just getting to a point where the maximum tonal range is defined for the image.

It appears that what the automated feature does is find the brightest pixel in the image and moves its value to 255 or so. The Blacks does the opposite, finding the darkest pixel in the image and moves its value to 0. That's not easy to do manually. Especially on a large number of images as the starting point.

It seems to me that having this as a starting point should be a desirable option of photographers and something that Lightroom could incorporate as a parameter setting.

Interestingly, in an image where the brightest pixel is beyond 255 when this shift key/click is applied it will move the value down to 255.

I've demonstrated this to myself by using the exposure, highlight sliders to change parameters then redoing the Shift key/click.

In some instances, I've seen the result of the first application result in a minus number which also suggests that it can pull hot pixels down.

[eliedinur]

All true except for one thing. It has been a feature of PV 2012 since LR 4.

[digitaldog]

All true except for one thing. It has been a feature of PV 2012 since LR 4.

That's why I didn't see what it, I was looking at older captures.
The behavior makes little sense to me, it's kind of Auto (sometimes) and the order you click makes a difference on this end. It's image specific, here are two examples. Notice the difference in the order on the outcome.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... And like most 'auto' anything's, sometimes it works pretty well, sometimes it doesn't work well at all...

Agreed. However, isn't that true for, as you said, "most auto anything," which would include auto-finding black and white points? In other words, if the image doesn't have it (e.g. foggy scenes), "finding" black and white points might make things worse (typically too contrasty).

[Wayne Fox]

All true except for one thing. It has been a feature of PV 2012 since LR 4.

Funny how something that has been around so long some of us are just discovering.   I saw the feature demoed in a video talking about LR CC and assumed it was new, but went back and tried it in LR 5 to discover it's been around at least that long, not sure about LR 4 since the process version doesn't have that much to do with interface so it could have been added as a feature in 5 ...

However, since discovering it I found that maybe it's not that useful. Even after shift double clicking to set the white or black point, I always grab the slider and manually adjust it using the option key.  The problem with the normal highlight clipping indicator for me is it shows even if only a single channel is clipped, but with the option drag method I can see  from the color where and what colors are clipping, and I can also decide how far back to pull away from clipping easier.  So might as well just option grab the slider to start with.

One thing PV 2012 did introduce is the logic to set those points when they are clipped.  If you have clipping on a shot that is in the 2010 process, moving to 2012 will try to remove it.  That's one reason many images appeared to lose a tiny bit of contrast when they were converted.  Sort of problematic if you set shadow clipping to allow some black, because 2012 will try to remove that.  But it might be kind of cool if LR had a optional full "black/white" point setting on import when you want (I guess so to what the OP is trying to accomplish), so LR would apply the reverse logic if needed as well and pull tones to the edge of the dynamic range similar to the shift double click shortcut.

[dmward]

Wayne,
That's my point. For a lot of the commercial work that I do I want the images imported to have the maximum dynamic range and a tone curve without a toe or shoulder as a STARTING POINT.

That's what I'm trying to accomplish with this feature. (It is interesting that its been available in V5. I never saw it, nor tried it. I was just frustrated by the difficulty of getting a raw file imported with Lightroom not compressing the shoulder, and, to a lesser extent, the toe of the tone curve.

When I was shooting Canon I defaulted to shooting 3 frame brackets 2 EV apart. Then selected the best image, or converted them to a 32 bit file for the maximum dynamic range.

When I started shooting with Fuji, and Sony, I found that often the center, or over exposed bracket frame could be processed to nearly the same result as a 32 bit file.
That has led me to experimenting with how to get Lightroom to import a raw file with the maximum dynamic range. As mentioned, the camera profile with a linear tone curve is nice and flat, but the white and black points are wherever. When I found out I could use the double click to set them each to a max value that meant I had a file with everything from 0 to 255 represented along a linear tone curve.

Naturally, when shooting where there is a compressed tonal range this won't be useful. That's the beauty of presets. I can apply one that maximizes the tonal range when appropriate and one that doesn't when appropriate.

Unfortunately, apparently, the Lightroom engineers have decided that I shouldn't have that flexibility.

[dmward]

An additional thought;
Since the "auto tone" button moves all the sliders, including the white and black point sliders, it seems reasonable that the shift/click setting option should be relatively easy to make available for inclusion in a preset. Auto Tone is available as an import perimeter. Maybe a White/Black point button could be added. :-)

As I've said. My intent is to have the most dynamic range without a shoulder or toe for images at import. The goal is to create a starting point that has maximum data without compression rolloff. THEN I can do the processing I want.

[bernie west]

I'm probably going to regret jumping in with this, but stretching out the histogram doesn't create any more dynamic range than not stretching it out.  It just gives you more tonal separation in the highlights and shadows and less* in the middle tones (i.e. the "flat" look).

* - less than you would have with a toe/shoulder curve.

[digitaldog]

I'm probably going to regret jumping in with this, but stretching out the histogram doesn't create any more dynamic range than not stretching it out.  It just gives you more tonal separation in the highlights and shadows and less* in the middle tones (i.e. the "flat" look).

Don't regret it since it's correct!