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Author Topic: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool  (Read 767297 times)

jrp

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1260 on: May 27, 2016, 08:53:03 am »

Sure. I've made it available to Graeme.
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GWGill

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1261 on: May 29, 2016, 10:38:11 pm »

I haven't had much success with the -p parameter.
From the images made available to me, it seems that the problem is that the wrong recognition reference file is being used. A Classic ColorChecker is not the same dimensions as half of a ColorChecker Passport! (the relative patch size is different).

If I take the original Passport shot, crop it, rotate it and reduce the dimensions to 1024, scanin -p works perfectly. The shot is probably useless because it is so unevenly exposed, but the patches are captured fine.
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1262 on: May 30, 2016, 05:39:59 am »

Oh, didn't know about the dimension difference. I have now updated the documentation accordingly.

Anyone who knows if the CC24 part of the color checker matches in color with the full-size card, or is that different too?

(Uneven light is not too big of a problem for DCamProf as lightness correction is disabled per default, if you enable it you should have even light or correct with flatfield correction though. Most commercial software also ignores the lightness axis)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 07:01:18 am by torger »
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sTi

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1263 on: May 30, 2016, 07:22:56 am »

Strange, I used only the CC24 part of my Colorchecker at least 15 times for building profiles for different cameras and I never had any difficulty with the scanin command. I always used Raw Therapee and cropped the CC24 patches quite closely.
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1264 on: May 30, 2016, 07:32:12 am »

Strange, I used only the CC24 part of my Colorchecker at least 15 times for building profiles for different cameras and I never had any difficulty with the scanin command. I always used Raw Therapee and cropped the CC24 patches quite closely.

Same here, it does work but as the fit isn't perfect you get much less margin concerning perspective error. If the shot is perpendicular and nice scanin can match it with the ColorChecker.cht layout.
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jrp

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1265 on: May 30, 2016, 07:36:31 am »

Thanks all.

I'm not quite sure what the conclusion from Graeme's investigation is.

Is there a new configuration file required?
Do we need to use both sides of the passport and rotate it?
Is the resizing key?  (Does resizing lose information or is the averaging helpful?)
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1266 on: May 30, 2016, 07:46:43 am »

Thanks all.

I'm not quite sure what the conclusion from Graeme's investigation is.

Is there a new configuration file required?
Do we need to use both sides of the passport and rotate it?
Is the resizing key?  (Does resizing lose information or is the averaging helpful?)

Resizing is not key as far as I understand, but the matching will run quicker. I usually don't resize. Resizing is not harmful though, it's just averaging which scanin will do anyway.

ColorCheckerPassport.cht should be used instead of ColorChecker.cht. The passport should be fully open and the shot should cover both pages, and it should be oriented so the logo text is red normally left-to-right, seen in Grame's shot above. You still use the cc24-ref-new.cie data file as before (at least my current assumption is that the spectra matches with the larger colorchecker), that is only the CC24 part of the passport will be used. The other patches doesn't add any significant anyway. You could of course spectro-measure all the patches and provide an own complete .cie file but it won't make any real difference. In any case it's much better to use the cc24 ref file with spectra than a complete ref file without spectra (which is bundled with Argyll).

Updated here:
http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/camera-profiling.html#the_easy_way
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 07:50:56 am by torger »
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GWGill

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1267 on: May 30, 2016, 07:48:54 am »

I'm not quite sure what the conclusion from Graeme's investigation is.
Using the Classic ColorChecker recognition file with half a Passport is not reliable, because the geometry doesn't match.
Using the Passport recognition file with the full Passport works much more reliably.

[ In theory I could create a "Right Half Passport" recognition file, if that would be any use. ]

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jrp

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1268 on: May 30, 2016, 08:42:41 am »

Thanks, Graeme.  I was using ColorCheckerPassport.cht, but with only half the Passpport.  That must have been my misstep.  No harm in creating the half-passport .cht, as that will be clearer to new users.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1269 on: May 30, 2016, 12:13:32 pm »

Anyone who knows if the CC24 part of the color checker matches in color with the full-size card, or is that different too?

X-Rite (not that we can believe them 100%) says the following = http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?ID=824&Action=Support&SupportID=5159

Quote
Date Created: 1/22/2010   Date Modified: 4/20/2012
The chart below lists colorimetric values for the ColorCheker Classic, ColorChecker Mini, and ColorChecker Passport targets.

but R. Mayers stated that there were still some spectral differences between CC24 Classic and Passport = http://www.rmimaging.com/information/ColorChecker_Passport_Technical_Report.pdf

but then who knows how many time X-Rite (or GmB) actually changed CC24 Classic formulations before, etc... R. Mayers says in his PDF file that CC24 Classic was from 2007 and Passport was from 2009 (?)

but then we know that CC24 Classic colors formulation were recently changed (11/2014)... X-Rite is silent whether they changed Passport... probably they shall be asked persistently (like they were bothered recently till they finally published the note about 11/2014 formulation change a year after the change was done).
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 12:19:56 pm by AlterEgo »
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jrp

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1270 on: May 30, 2016, 12:46:56 pm »

Well I assume from

http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?ID=938&Action=Support&SupportID=5884

that they are intended to be the same. If no one noticed that they changed the formulation perhaps the variations are less important than other factors in producing good profiles.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1271 on: May 30, 2016, 12:59:57 pm »

Well I assume from

http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?ID=938&Action=Support&SupportID=5884

that they are intended to be the same. If no one noticed that they changed the formulation perhaps the variations are less important than other factors in producing good profiles.

the link talks about CC24 Classic and ColorChecker SG - nothing about the Passport or CC24 Classic Mini (which is, I guess, revived, I think I saw a press release that it will be relaunched/was relaunched by now (???)/, at least in UK = http://www.photographyblog.com/news/x_rite_colorchecker_classic_mini_now_available)
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jrp

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1272 on: May 30, 2016, 02:38:28 pm »

Well the software for the ColourChecker says


Notes: ColorChecker Camera Calibration software is fully compatible with the industry standard ColorChecker 24 patch classic target from X-Rite. You can use this software with ColorChecker Passport and ColorChecker Classic (standard and mini sizes) products.

So they must surely use the same colour values as the software will not be able to tell which target you used.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1273 on: May 30, 2016, 02:52:35 pm »

Well the software for the ColourChecker says


Notes: ColorChecker Camera Calibration software is fully compatible with the industry standard ColorChecker 24 patch classic target from X-Rite. You can use this software with ColorChecker Passport and ColorChecker Classic (standard and mini sizes) products.


"compatible" means it will produce the output from the shot of the target that it will recognize as having patches arranged in a certain manner... you can print yourself something sufficiently resembling CC24 Classic or Passport and that software will take it in...  that does not mean it knows which target you are actually feeding it in and what are the target specifications exactly...

So they must surely use the same colour values as the software will not be able to tell which target you used.

look, CC24 Classic formulations were changed in November 2014... the same software will work with both pre and post 11/2014 targets... so try to ask yourself, what is in the code... how does that software distinguish pre and post 11/2014 targets and accounts for the difference...  ;D ... the answer is simple - X-Rite created this software as a quick and dirty mean to create profiles aiming @ audience who does not care about which targets they are using in fact and who most probably make so much errors in shooting the target that difference between targets will simply be obliterated by those errors... just like Adobe DNG PE.
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jrp

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1274 on: May 30, 2016, 05:04:57 pm »

Wo ho.  That's fightin' talk.

In my experience, these commercial people are not complete idiots.  They may take shortcuts, but they are calculated shortcuts.

I like the results of Anders' approach better, despite it being GUI-less, and so a PitA to use, even for someone like me, who remembers the DOS world.

The RawDigger approach may be better, but the documentation is quite limited (e.g., the how to on creating camera profiles starts somewhere in the middle and does not explain what sort of profiles you need to generate, for what purpose).  In this case, what may be a technically superior solution to XRite's will remain an undiscovered country to those not prepared to do more than follow a simple recipe.
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jrp

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1275 on: May 30, 2016, 06:02:53 pm »

I've tried your file and here's a scan (attached).

Anders, the result is more or less as advertised.  The Natural+ results are pleasing, subject to the following observations:

 - the yellow/greens are perhaps a bit hot (oversaturated)
 - it is quite hard to keep grey skies gray -- they are either a touch over blue or over pink
 - highlights tend to be a bit detail-less and the shadows over-compressed.  I'd prefer darker highlights and more open shadows.

Most of this can be dealt with using the Lightroom Basic panel controls, but the settings required seem to be more extreme than would be ideal.

(All this with the Leica SL and various cityscape shots in either overcast or near sunny light.)

Many thanks for this software, which is leading to much more pleasing pictures than the out-of-box solutions.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1276 on: May 30, 2016, 06:53:15 pm »

Wo ho.  That's fightin' talk.

no, that's just a simplest explanation... when both X-Rite and Adobe were designing their software they rightfully assumed that the difference in some pigments formulation will not be specifically detected/noticed (and attributed to) in profiles (produced that software) by the audience... can't blame them
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jrp

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1277 on: May 30, 2016, 07:40:46 pm »

So which target would you recommend?
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1278 on: May 31, 2016, 02:12:22 am »

You can adjust those aspects. The curve use in the default workflow is Adobe's default curve which many find pleasing, but you can design an own lower contrast one to open up shadows and compress highlights less. The neutral+ has a slight saturation increase over neutral, you can find that in its configuration file and disable it. In fact for those that always do color adjustments manually having a slightly desaturated profile can be an advantage, which indeed is an approach Adobe has chosen lately for many cameras.

The neutral+ profile has some desaturation of neutrals, but also keeps highlight color higher up than a typical Adobe profile which could explain your experience of the skies. This too can be adjusted.

Making adjustments is the hardest part, but as long as you're able to see what needs to be adjusted and have some patience you can do it.

I'd suggest using RawTherapee for the curve design, here's a description of how: http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/camera-profiling.html#step8

Personally I don't use the ACR default curve in my profiles, but I've instead matched it with the camera's native rendering and then fine-adjusted to taste.

Anders, the result is more or less as advertised.  The Natural+ results are pleasing, subject to the following observations:

 - the yellow/greens are perhaps a bit hot (oversaturated)
 - it is quite hard to keep grey skies gray -- they are either a touch over blue or over pink
 - highlights tend to be a bit detail-less and the shadows over-compressed.  I'd prefer darker highlights and more open shadows.

Most of this can be dealt with using the Lightroom Basic panel controls, but the settings required seem to be more extreme than would be ideal.

(All this with the Leica SL and various cityscape shots in either overcast or near sunny light.)

Many thanks for this software, which is leading to much more pleasing pictures than the out-of-box solutions.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 02:22:51 am by torger »
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1279 on: May 31, 2016, 03:31:22 am »

I'd love to have a GUI myself, and I might put some effort into it in the future, but it wouldn't be for the scanning part (which I think works satisfactory using scanin), but for the look operator design stuff which is really messy and slow to do without GUI. That GUI I would use myself.

To make a broad appeal product the right thing would be to make a good GUI for the scanning part though, and just skip the look operator stuff at all as it's too complicated for casual users anyway. At this point I have no intention making a commercial product though, as the market is just too narrow. I've done doomed-to-lose-money-products before though, so we'll see...

despite it being GUI-less
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