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Author Topic: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool  (Read 768234 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1120 on: December 01, 2015, 05:05:50 pm »

I will repost here what David from P1 got us from a different LuLa topic for posterity, Esben was posting along those lines before, but never harms to have it again :

Quote
Please see below from Esben at Phase One.
 
Anyways, the thing is that we actually do most of the work in the native camera space. In fact, we can pretty much work in the native camera space all the way to the output file. The rule is that if you can export an image with an embedded profile, then we can work in the camera space all the way. In that case, the “colorimetric interpretation” is done by the program reading our output file (e.g. PhotoShop).
 
In fact, if you embed the camera profile and export as a tif, we embed tag 301 (TIFFTAG_TRANSFERFUNCTION) which you can use to get back to a colors-pace which is closely related to the data acquired by the sensor. Obviously, the data has been heavily processed, but the processing is controlled by the user. This feature is targeted at scientific applications and 3rd party software to build color profiles.
 
The gamut you can see in the camera profile does not limit the gamut used for internal processing in Capture One. While typically large, the gamut is mostly limited because it is intended to be converted to other profiles afterwards. Also, LUT-based ICC profiles which use Lab is the PCS, have a gamut limitation. However, the conversion from the camera space (the “colorimetric interpretation” if you will) is based on ICC profiles.
 
Now, there are a few exceptions where we are forced to convert into a standard color space:
1)      Local color edits
2)      Conversion to black&white
 
There are tradeoffs with this approach. While it allows us to extract just about everything provided in the file, it also means that we need a significant effort to get the best possible quality for a camera. However, it does mean we do not limit ourselves to standardize on a specific internal color space.
 
Kind regards,
 
Esben H-R Myosotis
Formerly “EsbenHR” on Luminous Landscape
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sebbe

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1121 on: December 02, 2015, 03:06:41 am »

Thanks for the feedback, I'll look into the workflow.

If you have the ability to run the lamp on overdrive the 5000K is probably not adding any value, as you can push the 4700K lamp to that temperature anyway. With a fixed 12 volt lamp fixture I'd get the 5000K if I could. It's generally a bit easier to avoid glare in an indoor setup than outdoors, but with the CC24 and the glare compensation feature of DCamProf the outdoor result should be good too.

If you want a ~5000K shot the midday sun should shine on the CC24. If you want ~6500K shot the CC24 should be in the shadow. If you're like me located in Sweden, or even worse northern Sweden this time of year I don't think we ever get proper midday light so I'd prefer shooting indoor with a Solux.

I can remember me on some days in November in Sweden (Borås)... But on the other hand, the light in the Swedish summer months is unique and lovely! :)
We have a nice day today and I'll try a shoot in the lunch break. Switzerland isn't the equator, but actually I'm shooting most of my pics here. So this should be allright for my work. On the other hand, I may order some Solux anyway. Thanks for your explenations.

I made some new profiles yesterday and as I suggested, the result ends up in an identical picture, as with the old profile on C1Pro 8. So it looks like DCamProf works fine with the new version too, but you have to make new profiles for the v9 version.
But at the moment, C1Pro 9 looks not very stable to me. I can't save a default profile. If I import a new pic, it shows me sometimes the generic one, sometimes old profiles, that were the default once (but are deleted a long time ago) and sometimes the new one, but with a strange string of numbers. Also, if I close C1 and reopens it, the made processing is gone sometimes. Same with the keywording, it shows strange combinations with cascaded keywords. And reorganising them, ends up in a mess.
I'm glad now, that I accidently bought a new licence (50€) instead of an upgrade (40€). So I can use C1Pro 8 until they get fixed all that. :)

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sebbe

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1122 on: December 03, 2015, 04:17:46 pm »

I cleaned up my catalogue and C1 works now as it should. I don't have any issues any more. It looks like some wrong linked pics made the program unstable.

But back to the topic: I shot the CC24 yesterday in the sun on high noon. And made a C1Pro v9 ICC-profile with DCampProf v0.10.4 for the Sony A7RII. The profile looks great. It's almost identical with the shot from imaging resource. Mine has a slightly darker blue.

If you want to try or even use it by your own, you can find it in the attachement.
Thanks again, Anders, for this program.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 03:22:26 am by sebbe »
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Frederic_H

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1123 on: December 04, 2015, 08:20:13 am »

Since the output from my strobes is not super consistent, and recording the illuminant for each shot not really convenient, I may give the solux route a try too.
What do you use to power those lamps ? And what are the reasons nobody favors a standard repro setup with 2 of them, and goes with only 1 lamp plus flat-fielding instead ?

Torger, could you please briefly let us know why white-balancing isn't necessary for the exported linear TIFFs ?

-- OT --
And finally, is there anyone here who could make measurements for some of my charts (CC24, CCSG, IT8, DT4) with an i1pro2 or similar ? Someone in the EU would probably be more convenient, we could ship there more quickly. Of course this would be a paid job (invoice needed).
-- OT --

Thanks.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1124 on: December 04, 2015, 09:23:09 am »

What do you use to power those lamps ?

I posted what I use for Solux 5K few posts earlier in this topic

And what are the reasons nobody favors a standard repro setup with 2 of them, and goes with only 1 lamp plus flat-fielding instead ?

why do you think (or rather sure) that you will not need to flatfield 2 of them ?

one 24/26 degree lamp, Solux 5K 50W can easily illuminate a small target (for my purposes I tried many - but X-Rite Passport is hard to beat, even with that relatively shiny hard plastic shell that is has... I do not own mini CC24 unfortunately, missed the boat to buy when they were sold) in a regular room with <= 1.5-2.5% maximum (between min and max illuminated patches) unevenness (as calculated by collecting grid samples with raw digger over a regular surface where target is located with raw rgb channels)... and you further flatfield that.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 09:38:05 am by AlterEgo »
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1125 on: December 04, 2015, 09:26:14 am »

And finally, is there anyone here who could make measurements for some of my charts (CC24, CCSG, IT8, DT4) with an i1pro2 or similar ? Someone in the EU would probably be more convenient, we could ship there more quickly. Of course this would be a paid job (invoice needed).
why don't you buy a used i1Pro (not more expensive i1Pro2) or EFI (rebranded i1Pro) on eBay ? $200-300 a piece.
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Frederic_H

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1126 on: December 04, 2015, 09:46:13 am »

I posted what I use for Solux 5K few posts earlier in this topic
Ok, thanks, missed that.

why do you think (or rather sure) that you will not need to flatfield 2 of them ?
I already flat-field charts shot with 2 strobes, I'd probably do the same with 2 solux. My question is why people seem to use only 1 lamp, and rely heavily on flat-fielding to get a balanced exposure.

why don't you buy a used i1Pro (not more expensive i1Pro2) or EFI (rebranded i1Pro) on eBay ? $200-300 a piece.
I already own one, but according to W. Faust my rev A version has issues with high densities (confirmed after some tests with a chart he sent me). Can't really justify buying a second one... I will probably use it again, and compare the results with your recent measurements for the colorchecker though.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1127 on: December 04, 2015, 09:58:56 am »

I already flat-field charts shot with 2 strobes, I'd probably do the same with 2 solux. My question is why people seem to use only 1 lamp, and rely heavily on flat-fielding to get a balanced exposure.

and what is your unevenness with 2 Solux @ angle 'd be ? note that when you use 1 Solux - you can shine straight and aim camera @ angle... when you have 2 Solux you shine each @ angle - hence way more unevenness, albeit you hope that intersecting 2 circular fields will provide a more even field... and with Solux I think you need to keep them closer to the target versus strobes or halogen, powerwise - more unevenness (versus shining from a bigger distance)...

otherwise there is a school of thought (namely Iliah Borg as far as I recall what I read) that gives a reason for not using 2 lamps as the differences in WB / WB unevenness across the field... I never used 2 lamps, so I never tested that myself...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 10:05:07 am by AlterEgo »
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sebbe

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1128 on: December 18, 2015, 03:33:20 am »

I'm in the next round of "Sebbe vs. DCamprof". I'm still looking for a double "Sebbe and DCamprof". But for that, I need to fight me some respect with it. :)

I made a mistake creating my last profile. Don't ask! :) But yesterday I was creating it correctly and now I have a question:
The new profile looks smoother, but has a light green color cast. So I added to my cc24 pic in C1 a 125/126 point on the green curve. After that, I saved my CC24.tif/curve.tif and profiled with them. It looks great now. But I wanted to know, if there is a better (or more sophisticated) way to do that? Like the lut-curve.json but for each color curve. You have the personal look section, but I don't get it. May you can give me an example?
(I did an update on my post above, so the corrected profile can be downloaded there)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 04:10:08 am by sebbe »
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1129 on: December 18, 2015, 04:36:31 am »

I assume you're using a preset camera white balance when the green cast occurs?

There shouldn't be any green cast if the DCamProf white is matching the white balance setting of the camera, that is if you color pick the white patch, or for the CC24 I think it's the second neutral patch that's the most neutral (D02, when you run you can see which patch is picked by DCamProf, or you can steer it with the -b parameter).

However the camera's daylight preset may have some other multipliers that doesn't play well with a neutral profile. Cameras usually do, but if it doesn't one may need to make some manual look adjustments.

I'd look into the temperature/tint adjustment look operator first (SetTemperature) rather than curves. The look operator stuff is indeed a bit messy to get into, it really needs a GUI to be easy to work with, but at this point I'm not planning to develop any so it is what it is.

Try something like this, but keep temperature (yellow-blue axis) at 5000 and adjust the tint (green-magenta axis)

{ // Warmup
            // Reference temperature (no change temperature) is always 5000K 0 tint.
            "Operator": "SetTemperature", "TempTint": [ 5400, 5 ],
            "BlendRGB": true, // RGB blending (instead of default JCh) used here as it gives better result for this operator
            "Blend": [
                { // limiter to avoid DCP LUT hue discontinuity issues, and make a smoother rolloff to neutrals
                    "X": "HSV-Saturation",
                    "XRange": [ 0, 15 ],
                    "Curve": {
                       "CurveType": "RoundedStep",
                       "CurveHandles": [ [0,0], [1,1] ]
                    }
                }
            ]
        }


Extend the data-examples/ntro_conf.json with this look operator and play around a bit with it. See data-examples/ntro_lookop_conf.json to see exactly how you insert the look operator.
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sebbe

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1130 on: December 18, 2015, 05:38:25 am »

I was using with my CC24 shot in C1:
ICC profile: "Phase One Effects: No Color Correction", Select Curve: "Linear Response", "16 bit TIFF", "Embed camera profile". I didn't change WB (I think in engl. it's "as shot"), because you wrote in the documentation, that it would not affect the profile process.

Thanks for the "code" and the hints. I will try that, as soon as I get to it.

If I'm right, and it is just a WB issue with my current shot, I have three options:
  • Just make a profile and correct the WB-green-magenta axis every time slightly to magenta,...
  • use the code to adjust the green-magenta axis or ...
  • use the -b operator to choose another WB-point and check, if that may give the same effect
Correct?
I will try all of them and compare them to my unsophisticated way and the as-is-profile. :)
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1131 on: December 18, 2015, 06:33:15 am »

Yes the WB in the chart shot doesn't matter as DCamProf rebalances it in any case unless you use the -B parameter, then the profile will also correct the white balance (only works for ICC, not DCP). In theory you might want to do that, but normally it's only applicable to reproduction work.

This is the first time I hear reports about white balance issues so I get a little bit suspicious about that there might be some other problem. What light are you using in your setup?

I was using with my CC24 shot in C1:
ICC profile: "Phase One Effects: No Color Correction", Select Curve: "Linear Response", "16 bit TIFF", "Embed camera profile". I didn't change WB (I think in engl. it's "as shot"), because you wrote in the documentation, that it would not affect the profile process.

Thanks for the "code" and the hints. I will try that, as soon as I get to it.

If I'm right, and it is just a WB issue with my current shot, I have three options:
  • Just make a profile and correct the WB-green-magenta axis every time slightly to magenta,...
  • use the code to adjust the green-magenta axis or ...
  • use the -b operator to choose another WB-point and check, if that may give the same effect
Correct?
I will try all of them and compare them to my unsophisticated way and the as-is-profile. :)
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sebbe

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1132 on: December 18, 2015, 08:47:25 am »

the sun! :)
I never expect color shift due to the simply profiling with dcamprof. But there are so much variable light when shooting outdoor, that it would be a surprise, if there is no such issues. I did a shot at the same position but with a cloudy sky today and will compare it.
The lightsource is perfect, the setting is difficult. But if I can get rid of setting-issues with slight adjustements, I think, I will get a good profile anyway.
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sebbe

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1133 on: December 24, 2015, 06:37:30 am »

Hej Torger
Didn't had much time these days. But made some tests this morning. The subtle color shift seems to be from the shot setting itself. I tried the -b and the WB way to correct it, but both didn't end where I want to. The issue isn't a wrong balance, it's just a slight color shift in light (from reflections maybe?), while making the profile. So, the way with the dcamprof adjustment tool operator wouldn't the right too.
So I went back to my method: Adjusting all 3 curves (RGB) with a good reference. First I spread in C1 the curve tool over the whole display. The bigger the curve tool is, the finer the steps will be on a single point, when pressing the curser buttons. With that I could make for example a 127 to a 127.25.
I made just slight adjustments on 1 or 2 points within every of the three curves. Not more than +-0.75. These steps I copied to my CC24 shot and negate them (a +0.5 would be a -0.5). After that, I generated my tiffs (CC24 and curve) the normal way and profiled them with dcamprof. It looks like I have a profile now, that looks very good. It's for the A7RII and you can find it attached (if someone want to use it).
I will stop now with improving it and go on with shooting (yeah!) and reading more about theory and mechanic behind RAW files and how to process them. :)
Tack så mycket och god Jul!
sebbe

Edit: Today I had time (and weather) to shoot a new one, and it works without the RGB adjustments. So you can find both in the attachement section. I will use the new one now. :)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 07:20:18 am by sebbe »
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markanini

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1134 on: December 28, 2015, 08:58:46 am »

I'm looking for colorchecker shots for a few cameras from before imaging resource started posting raw samples:
Canon G9
Olympus SP-510UZ
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Frederic_H

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1135 on: January 05, 2016, 03:59:19 pm »

Cross posted here...
___

Some people were interested in charts shot at ISO 50 with the A7rII, here a CCSG and IT8.7 :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qitmp7aanzg72us/FH-A7_charts_ISO50.zip?dl=1

Shot with strobes around 5000K (.sp files included for each) + flat field pic. The folder includes the capture one v9 settings too.
CCSG is post Nov 2014, IT8 is from W. Faust (charge R131007).

Since I don't use my A7rII much, I have not bothered to create some ICC profiles yet.
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markanini

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1136 on: January 11, 2016, 01:21:27 am »

Are Adobe standard profile colormetric with the tone curve deactivated? I considering options for my shots taken with cameras I no longer own or can find colorchecker shots for...
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1137 on: January 11, 2016, 03:06:46 am »

can find colorchecker shots for...

you can always try I-R website
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1138 on: January 11, 2016, 06:16:31 am »

Are Adobe standard profile colormetric with the tone curve deactivated?

Adobe has changed their profile design philosophy over the years, and possibly they have had different strategies for different cameras too. I have looked at quite many profiles for various reasons and seen that their design differs a lot, but I have not really tried to figure out any pattern so I can't say anything generic like "every profile before Lightroom version XX is like YY", I simply don't know.

Some of the older profiles might work in that way, but recent profiles for higher end cameras are surely not. Adobe seems to have decided to have their own "look" and design profiles to match that look, but still they make cameras look quite different, the desaturated look of the A7r-II and Pentax 645z for example is not matching the typically more saturated look. I don't really know what design strategy they have.

DCP's allow for a layered approach, matrix that is as colorimetric as possible linearly, a huesatmap that corrects further, and then a curve+looktable that adds a look on top. That would give you the property you're after, and that was how DCamProf made its profiles, and you can still make it that way if you want to, but it turns out that you get clipping issues with extreme colors this way, most typically demonstrated with deep blues.

So a modern Adobe profile (and indeed DCamProf with default settings) will instead make a matrix that compresses colors to fit within prophoto, and then stretches thing in place with the LUTs (including gamut compression). That is there's no colometric "layer" in the profile.

If Adobe would have designed the DCP format from scratch today it would probably be a bit different. The more or less subtle clipping issues is something that the early profiles did not care about, while the modern profiles are designed to work around limitations in the DCP format itself, and DCamProf's default action is to do exactly that.
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markanini

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1139 on: January 11, 2016, 11:09:05 am »

you can always try I-R website
I did, no luck. :/
Some of the older profiles might work in that way, but recent profiles for higher end cameras are surely not.
Maybe I'm in luck then, the cameras I'm thinking of were included in the early "beta 2" batch IIRC. I can report back if I find anything interesting.
EDIT: Where can I find a good all-round tone curve for RawTherapees perceptual mode?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 03:35:58 pm by markanini »
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