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Author Topic: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool  (Read 768058 times)

Iliah

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1080 on: November 05, 2015, 04:11:42 pm »

with CMF/SSF data then it is logical to create for ACR/LR a dual illuminant DCP/DNG profile with "A" (or even lower) and D75 (or even further up), as you do not really illuminate any real target with any actual light, no ?

You are limited to the light sources listed in EXIF standard (that's how Adobe implemented this), so, no, lower than A is not possible. D75 is the highest possible.
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1081 on: November 06, 2015, 03:36:41 am »

with CMF/SSF data then it is logical to create for ACR/LR a dual illuminant DCP/DNG profile with "A" (or even lower) and D75 (or even further up), as you do not really illuminate any real target with any actual light, no ?

As Iliah said the lowest possible is StdA (2850K) and the highest possible is D75 (7500K). The "inbetweeners" are interpolated with simple linear interpolation. The interpolation is only about making a smooth transition between the both matrices and LUTs, not about trying to interpolate something "accurate". For single-illuminant profiles the light source tag is not used.

It would be an interesting experiment using SSF to render a 4000K profile and see how much it differs from a dual-illuminant 2850K+7500K profile under 4000K light. I think we would find out that it differs substantially for temperatures close to the low and less for those close to the high due to the non-linear behavior.

I think I'll do some experiments...
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sTi

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1082 on: November 06, 2015, 07:56:59 am »

A related(?) question: What happens in profiling when we are dealing with a different tint (green-magenta) with an otherwise same light temperature?
I am asking because I tried to make some profiles from the Imaging Resource CC24 shots. To check the quality I compared it to a profile made with a shot of my CC24 under midday sun.

Both profiles (for a Pentax K-5 II) used the same command line:
dcamprof make-profile -i D50 -C cc24.ti3 my-profile.json

Both profiles showed similar and rather low DE values, so from this regard everything should be fine. I expected no or only negligible visible difference when applying the profiles in Raw Therapee, but was surprised: The Imaging Resource profile has visibly more magenta skintones, in direct comparison it looks slightly wrong compared to my daylight CC24 profile.
I then checked the white balance of the light gray patch in Raw Therapee. For comparison, normally my camera shows around 0.985 Tint when grey-card measured in sunny midday conditions, but the IR shot white balance shows 1.082 tint, indicating that their light source seems to have a strong magenta tint, even if the color temperature is fine (~5500K).

What are your thoughts on this? Is the difference likely to be caused by the different tint in light sources, or are other factors (different lens, CC24 variations...) more likely to blame?
I can upload the profiles and intermediate steps if needed.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1083 on: November 06, 2015, 08:35:34 am »

not about trying to interpolate something "accurate".
well then where is the "border" then ? if D75 is not more "accurate" in general use of a dual illuminant profile than D65 - why 'd D65 be more beneficial to use (SSF/CMF cases - hence not about getting real light) vs D55 or D50 ?  will the transition be smoother with D65 than with D55 or D50 ?
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1084 on: November 06, 2015, 09:27:26 am »

well then where is the "border" then ? if D75 is not more "accurate" in general use of a dual illuminant profile than D65 - why 'd D65 be more beneficial to use (SSF/CMF cases - hence not about getting real light) vs D55 or D50 ?  will the transition be smoother with D65 than with D55 or D50 ?

I don't know. I'm currently implementing support for spectral images so I can more easily make some practical experiments.
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Iliah

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1085 on: November 06, 2015, 09:29:51 am »

>It would be an interesting experiment using SSF to render a 4000K profile and see how much it differs from a dual-illuminant 2850K+7500K profile under 4000K light. I think we would find out that it differs substantially for temperatures close to the low and less for those close to the high due to the non-linear behavior.

Difference between interpolated 4230K and actual fluorescent F2 and similar pairs is what is really telling. Low CRI sources tend to break things, that is why I switched to spectral methods.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1086 on: November 06, 2015, 09:58:01 am »

Difference between interpolated 4230K and actual fluorescent F2 and similar pairs is what is really telling.
but when we are using 4xxxK WB in a raw converter like ACR/LR it is not necessarily because of the fluorescent lights or so - it might as well be still some daylight or rather flash when photographer thinks this is the WB he needs (for his taste) for example, no ?
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Iliah

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1087 on: November 06, 2015, 10:03:23 am »

but when we are using 4xxxK WB in a raw converter like ACR/LR it is not necessarily because of the fluorescent lights or so - it might as well be still some daylight or rather flash when photographer thinks this is the WB he needs (for his taste) for example, no ?

When you are using 4xxxK is a raw converter all you are doing is setting white balance, because of the way colour temperature is defined; while we, I think, are talking about the colour.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1088 on: November 06, 2015, 10:15:16 am »

When you are using 4xxxK is a raw converter all you are doing is setting white balance, because of the way colour temperature is defined; while we, I think, are talking about the colour.
OK, if the topic is about getting a better color transform for a raw when we have it from a shot under a fluorescent type (bad spectrum) of illumination using a dual illuminant profile built using a pair of good spectral illuminations like A and D**s then I digress
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1089 on: November 09, 2015, 02:04:05 pm »

I have now released DCamProf v0.10.4. Some minor bug fix, and a new command si-render to process spectral images. I also added a KeepLightness flag to the Curves look operator so you can adjust hue without causing a lightness change as side effect.

I used that command to do various simulations to find out the "best" calibration illuminant choice. Generic things that can be said about a camera profile used at a too high temperature (say D50 profile at 10000K, or StdA profile at D50) is that blues get brighter and more cyan (increased blue and green content) and reds get darker and more purple (decreased red and green content). You also get a mild saturation increase of many colors. The opposite happens if you go the other direction.

But anyway, the actual choice does not matter that much, and I find it hard to say that StdA + D65 is any better than StdA + D50, but perhaps the other way around due to the blue thing. The StdA + D50 is very close at D65, and even higher it will appear slightly more saturated and have little bit brighter blues.

I'm probably going to be less active with DCamProf development now for some time. Haven't had any major issue reports for a while and I don't have any critical features left on my todo list.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1090 on: November 09, 2015, 02:18:06 pm »

0.10.4 build for Windows ( mingw = dcamprof.exe + libgomp_64-1.dll + both manual & tutorial / = copies of Torger's web pages / in 3 formats : IE archive .mht, Mozilla archive .maff and regular .pdf ) : https://app.box.com/DCamProf
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Funtez

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1091 on: November 10, 2015, 03:53:24 am »

I have now released DCamProf v0.10.4. Some minor bug fix, and a new command si-render to process spectral images. I also added a KeepLightness flag to the Curves look operator so you can adjust hue without causing a lightness change as side effect.

I used that command to do various simulations to find out the "best" calibration illuminant choice. Generic things that can be said about a camera profile used at a too high temperature (say D50 profile at 10000K, or StdA profile at D50) is that blues get brighter and more cyan (increased blue and green content) and reds get darker and more purple (decreased red and green content). You also get a mild saturation increase of many colors. The opposite happens if you go the other direction.

But anyway, the actual choice does not matter that much, and I find it hard to say that StdA + D65 is any better than StdA + D50, but perhaps the other way around due to the blue thing. The StdA + D50 is very close at D65, and even higher it will appear slightly more saturated and have little bit brighter blues.

I'm probably going to be less active with DCamProf development now for some time. Haven't had any major issue reports for a while and I don't have any critical features left on my todo list.



I have only popped in and out of this thread reading bits and pieces and following the progress with interest, I am hopeful of finding time to understand and use the tool in the near future, but a huge thank you for the work you have done. Have the more recent changes impacted the previous profiles you shared for the SonyA7rII ? They have been brilliant and a much more enjoyable profile to work with for my use so far.

Thanks again
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1092 on: November 10, 2015, 04:08:52 am »



I have only popped in and out of this thread reading bits and pieces and following the progress with interest, I am hopeful of finding time to understand and use the tool in the near future, but a huge thank you for the work you have done. Have the more recent changes impacted the previous profiles you shared for the SonyA7rII ? They have been brilliant and a much more enjoyable profile to work with for my use so far.

Thanks again

Yes it has had some minor impact... I'm thinking about making the generation and distribution of example profiles a bit more structured, but haven't come that far on that. Meanwhile I can render an updated profile and post in the A7rII thread... I'll do it during the day.

EDIT: new profiles found in http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=104195.msg867280#msg867280
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 04:30:32 am by torger »
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howardm

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1093 on: November 10, 2015, 07:05:17 am »

Version 0.10.4 for Mac OSX now available

Bip

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1094 on: November 11, 2015, 01:16:55 pm »

I have now released DCamProf v0.10.4. Some minor bug fix, and a new command si-render to process spectral images. I also added a KeepLightness flag to the Curves look operator so you can adjust hue without causing a lightness change as side effect.

I used that command to do various simulations to find out the "best" calibration illuminant choice. Generic things that can be said about a camera profile used at a too high temperature (say D50 profile at 10000K, or StdA profile at D50) is that blues get brighter and more cyan (increased blue and green content) and reds get darker and more purple (decreased red and green content). You also get a mild saturation increase of many colors. The opposite happens if you go the other direction.

But anyway, the actual choice does not matter that much, and I find it hard to say that StdA + D65 is any better than StdA + D50, but perhaps the other way around due to the blue thing. The StdA + D50 is very close at D65, and even higher it will appear slightly more saturated and have little bit brighter blues.

I'm probably going to be less active with DCamProf development now for some time. Haven't had any major issue reports for a while and I don't have any critical features left on my todo list.


Thank you for this new version, I'll redo my profiles.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1095 on: November 17, 2015, 09:31:51 pm »

I realize that I actually have November 2014 CC24 chart myself, that is the new one. I have measured it myself for my own calibration but I only have a Colormunki so I don't feel fully confident of the quality to distribute it with DCamProf.

If someone has a November 2014 (or newer) CC24 and have a good pro level gear spectral measurement of it and can share I'd love to have it for inclusion.

here we go (attached) :

X-Rite CC24 / ColorChecker Classic, November 2014 edition
averaged 5 passes with X-Rite i1Pro2 using BabelColor PatchTool v5.x in non-XRGA (GMDI) mode

PS: both file & data are free to be used for any purposes in any manner, etc, etc

--- comparing with the official X-Rite LAB data for November 2014+ targets ---

Quote
PatchTool COMPARE TOOL - COMPARE STATS REPORT

This file combines and compares the data of two files which have the same number of samples.
This report presents statistical data derived from the differences between the color values of these two data sets.

Date:    "2015-11-17"
Time:    "09:34:40 PM"
Version:    "5.0.0 b397"

REFERENCE
- Name:    "CC24 (ColorChecker Classic) 2014-11 = i1Pro2(SN#1044184, 2015-11-17, spectral, GMDI, AVG-5).cie (M0)"
# The SOURCE data type is < spectrum >.

SAMPLE
- Name:    "ColorChecker24_After_Nov2014.txt (M0)"
# The SAMPLE data type is < XYZ >.
- Observer:    "2 degree (fixed)"

STATS-SETTINGS
Delta parameter:    "E*"
Illuminant:    "D50"
Observer:    "2 deg."
Delta-E* formula:    "CIEDE2000"
Absolute values:    "NO"
Separate Neg./Pos. stats:    "NO"
Negative samples:    0
Positive samples:    24
Number of samples:    24

AVERAGE
All samples:    0.66
Best 90%:    0.58
Worst 10%:    1.50

STANDARD-DEVIATION
All samples:    0.36
Best 90%:    0.26
Worst 10%:    0.20

MAXIMUM-ERROR
10th percentile:    ±    0.29
Median (50th perc.):    ±    0.59
90th percentile:    ±    1.14
95th percentile:    ±    1.29
Of all samples:    ±    1.70

HISTOGRAM-DATA
Bin-size:    0.1000
Bin center    0.0500   0.1500   0.2500   0.3500   0.4500   0.5500   0.6500   0.7500   0.8500   0.9500   1.0500   1.1500   1.2500   1.3500   1.4500   1.5500   1.6500   1.7500   1.8500   1.9500
No patches    0   0   4   4   2   2   2   4   2   0   0   2   1   0   0   0   1   0   0   0

CUMULATIVE RELATIVE FREQUENCY (CRF) DATA
CRF of all-samples:
Max-error   0.2386   0.2819   0.2902   0.2949   0.3166   0.3650   0.3940   0.4514   0.4585   0.5836   0.5851   0.6265   0.6436   0.7064   0.7123   0.7272   0.8515   0.8606   1.1410   1.2940   1.6992
CRF   0%   5%   10%   15%   20%   25%   30%   35%   40%   45%   50%   55%   60%   65%   70%   75%   80%   85%   90%   95%   100%



--- comparing with the official X-Rite LAB data for pre November 2014 targets ---

Quote
PatchTool COMPARE TOOL - COMPARE STATS REPORT

This file combines and compares the data of two files which have the same number of samples.
This report presents statistical data derived from the differences between the color values of these two data sets.

Date:    "2015-11-17"
Time:    "09:41:20 PM"
Version:    "5.0.0 b397"

REFERENCE
- Name:    "CC24 (ColorChecker Classic) 2014-11 = i1Pro2(SN#1044184, 2015-11-17, spectral, GMDI, AVG-5).cie (M0)"
# The SOURCE data type is < spectrum >.

SAMPLE
- Name:    "ColorChecker24_Before_Nov2014.txt"
# The SAMPLE data type is < XYZ >.
- Observer:    "2 degree (fixed)"

STATS-SETTINGS
Delta parameter:    "E*"
Illuminant:    "D50"
Observer:    "2 deg."
Delta-E* formula:    "CIEDE2000"
Absolute values:    "NO"
Separate Neg./Pos. stats:    "NO"
Negative samples:    0
Positive samples:    24
Number of samples:    24

AVERAGE
All samples:    0.88
Best 90%:    0.83
Worst 10%:    1.43

STANDARD-DEVIATION
All samples:    0.31
Best 90%:    0.27
Worst 10%:    0.02

MAXIMUM-ERROR
10th percentile:    ±    0.41
Median (50th perc.):    ±    0.93
90th percentile:    ±    1.20
95th percentile:    ±    1.41
Of all samples:    ±    1.45

HISTOGRAM-DATA
Bin-size:    0.1000
Bin center    0.0500   0.1500   0.2500   0.3500   0.4500   0.5500   0.6500   0.7500   0.8500   0.9500   1.0500   1.1500   1.2500   1.3500   1.4500   1.5500
No patches    0   0   1   1   1   1   3   3   0   4   4   3   1   0   2   0

CUMULATIVE RELATIVE FREQUENCY (CRF) DATA
CRF of all-samples:
Max-error   0.2235   0.3709   0.4091   0.5880   0.6024   0.6199   0.7531   0.7803   0.7909   0.9210   0.9311   0.9515   0.9755   1.0192   1.0429   1.0748   1.1235   1.1356   1.2046   1.4082   1.4525
CRF   0%   5%   10%   15%   20%   25%   30%   35%   40%   45%   50%   55%   60%   65%   70%   75%   80%   85%   90%   95%   100%
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 09:42:50 pm by AlterEgo »
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1096 on: November 18, 2015, 10:49:32 am »

The question you are asking amounts to who's calibration standard is better, Gretag's or X-Rite's. My answer is Gretag's, and thus no XRGA if I can avoid it. Details: XRGA uses different weighting (for reds, mostly). Thus spectral data can be converted from one standard to another. dE worst case 1.4. The slightest differences in aperture and measuring geometry have more effect than the difference between Gretag and X-Rite. Gretag geometry is generally more accurate, with better conformance to 45/0. In some ways one can view XRGA as an attempt to correct for systematic geometry error.

PS: Please have a look at Tom Lianza's account on the matter http://www.color.org/events/frankfurt/Lianza_ICCFrankfurt2013instrument_compare.pdf
Few things about Mr. Lianza here: http://patents.justia.com/inventor/thomas-a-lianza

I am sorry, but back to "how many angels can stand on the point of a pin?" (c).

Consider for example i1Pro2 device... it has both XRGA and non XRGA modes (at least available through software like BabelColor PatchTool and it does not seem that mr. Pascale invented that on his own - just implemented something that X-Rite itself gives out of the driver, no ?).

That means that the device itself is operating either with GmB calibration standard/geometry or with X-Rite calibration standard/geometry and then whatever is implemented inside is then (can be) translated to XRGA (by driver, I'd assume, shall ask mr. Pascale - which I actually did this morning).

So which "blood" runs in i1Pro2 then ?

I run both XRGA and non XRGA measurments yesterday, averaged for both, and run compare in PatchTool :
Quote
PatchTool COMPARE TOOL - COMPARE STATS REPORT

This file combines and compares the data of two files which have the same number of samples.
This report presents statistical data derived from the differences between the color values of these two data sets.

Date:     "2015-11-18"
Time:     "02:13:30 AM"
Version:     "5.0.0 b397"

REFERENCE
- Name:     "PatchTool Avg-9 (5 files)"
# The SOURCE data type is < spectrum >.

SAMPLE
- Name:     "CC24 (ColorChecker Classic) 2014-11 = i1Pro2(SN#1044184, 2015-11-17, spectral, GMDI, AVG-5).cie (M0)"
# The SAMPLE data type is < spectrum >.

STATS-SETTINGS
Delta parameter:     "E*"
Illuminant:     "D50"
Observer:     "2 deg."
Delta-E* formula:     "CIEDE2000"
Absolute values:     "NO"
Separate Neg./Pos. stats:     "NO"
Negative samples:     0
Positive samples:     24
Number of samples:     24

AVERAGE
All samples:     0.10
Best 90%:     0.09
Worst 10%:     0.19

STANDARD-DEVIATION
All samples:     0.05
Best 90%:     0.04
Worst 10%:     0.01

MAXIMUM-ERROR
10th percentile:     ±     0.03
Median (50th perc.):     ±     0.10
90th percentile:     ±     0.16
95th percentile:     ±     0.17
Of all samples:     ±     0.20

HISTOGRAM-DATA
Bin-size:     0.0500
Bin center     0.0250    0.0750    0.1250    0.1750
No patches     5    6    9    4

CUMULATIVE RELATIVE FREQUENCY (CRF) DATA
CRF of all-samples:
Max-error    0.0293    0.0311    0.0329    0.0391    0.0470    0.0512    0.0726    0.0750    0.0752    0.0980    0.1027    0.1034    0.1040    0.1265    0.1353    0.1366    0.1396    0.1408    0.1568    0.1722    0.1988
CRF    0%    5%    10%    15%    20%    25%    30%    35%    40%    45%    50%    55%    60%    65%    70%    75%    80%    85%    90%    95%    100%

"PatchTool Avg-9 (5 files)" in the text above is XRGA mode measurements.

it seems that the difference between XRGA and non XRGA results points ( based on table 3 in https://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/en/L7-462_XRGA_WhitePaper_en.pdf ) that i1Pro2 is operating more like legacy X-Rite devices and then using i1Pro2 in XRGA mode shall actually bring it closer to GmB legacy devices, which you state is "better"...

 :o !!!

PS: "table 3"


« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 10:55:22 am by AlterEgo »
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1097 on: November 18, 2015, 05:09:08 pm »

I was corrected that I shall use dE* / CIELAB in PatchTool if comparing anything with the table from X-Rite PDF, not dE* / CIEDE2000 - so :

Quote
PatchTool COMPARE TOOL - COMPARE STATS REPORT

This file combines and compares the data of two files which have the same number of samples.
This report presents statistical data derived from the differences between the color values of these two data sets.

Date:    "2015-11-18"
Time:    "05:05:12 PM"
Version:    "5.0.0 b397"

REFERENCE
- Name:    "PatchTool Avg-1 (5 files)"
# The SOURCE data type is < spectrum >.

SAMPLE
- Name:    "CC24 (ColorChecker Classic) = i1Pro2(SN#1044184, 2015-11-17, spectral, GMDI, AVG-5).cie (M0)"
# The SAMPLE data type is < spectrum >.

STATS-SETTINGS
Delta parameter:    "E*"
Illuminant:    "D50"
Observer:    "2 deg."
Delta-E* formula:    "CIELAB"
Absolute values:    "NO"
Separate Neg./Pos. stats:    "NO"
Negative samples:    0
Positive samples:    24
Number of samples:    24

AVERAGE
All samples:    0.17
Best 90%:    0.16
Worst 10%:    0.36

STANDARD-DEVIATION
All samples:    0.09
Best 90%:    0.07
Worst 10%:    0.04

MAXIMUM-ERROR
10th percentile:    ±    0.08
Median (50th perc.):    ±    0.14
90th percentile:    ±    0.30
95th percentile:    ±    0.32
Of all samples:    ±    0.40

HISTOGRAM-DATA
Bin-size:    0.0500
Bin center    0.0250   0.0750   0.1250   0.1750   0.2250   0.2750   0.3250   0.3750
No patches    1   2   9   4   3   2   2   1

CUMULATIVE RELATIVE FREQUENCY (CRF) DATA
CRF of all-samples:
Max-error   0.0193   0.0643   0.0819   0.1005   0.1030   0.1076   0.1099   0.1200   0.1266   0.1331   0.1394   0.1538   0.1540   0.1883   0.2114   0.2325   0.2485   0.2724   0.3021   0.3237   0.3986
CRF   0%   5%   10%   15%   20%   25%   30%   35%   40%   45%   50%   55%   60%   65%   70%   75%   80%   85%   90%   95%   100%
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GWGill

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1098 on: November 18, 2015, 09:41:43 pm »

Consider for example i1Pro2 device... it has both XRGA and non XRGA modes.

That means that the device itself is operating either with GmB calibration standard/geometry or with X-Rite calibration standard/geometry and then whatever is implemented inside is then (can be) translated to XRGA (by driver, I'd assume, shall ask mr. Pascale - which I actually did this morning).

So which "blood" runs in i1Pro2 then ?
The i1Pro2 is native XRGA. X-Rite software uses a library (XRiteStandard.dll) to allow conversion between XRGA and legacy standards.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #1099 on: November 18, 2015, 10:18:09 pm »

The i1Pro2 is native XRGA. X-Rite software uses a library (XRiteStandard.dll) to allow conversion between XRGA and legacy standards.

thank you so much for the input !

1) but to which legacy standard/calibration then "XRiteStandard.dll" 'd translate the spectrum (native hardware XRGA) when we run i1Pro2 in non-XRGA mode (using the relevant software like PatchTool for example... which btw does not have that .dll - ColorPort has it for example, but not PatchTool) ? to GmB legacy (as in Spectrolino, i1Pro, etc) or to X-Rite legacy (as in 5xx/9xx, etc) ?

2) Argyll utilities - do they then simply receive from i1Pro2 and output to user (display, file) native XRGA spectrum received straight from i1Pro2 w/o naming it as such (I mean we get XRGA data from Argyll in this case even Argyll does not use that word anywhere) ?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 10:23:36 pm by AlterEgo »
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