Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: jdemott on January 10, 2006, 06:23:21 pm

Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: jdemott on January 10, 2006, 06:23:21 pm
Obviously, there have been various file organization/viewing/sorting/database programs in the market for some time, ranging from shareware up to expensive database programs designed to support entire workplaces.  This has been a gaping hole in Adobe's product lineup--until recently, users have been practically forced to use a third party program to find and convert the files they are opening into Photoshop.  With the introduction of Photoshop CS2, Adobe brought us Bridge and ACR, which finally offered the promise of making Photoshop a complete product.  I, for one, was looking forward to seeing ACR and Bridge improved over successive generations as part of Photoshop.

Now it appears that Adobe's strategy will be to "unbundle" the file organization and raw conversion features into a new product so users will have to pay separately for them.    Photoshop users who need raw conversion or file organization (a group that  probably includes almost all Photoshop customers) will also have to buy Lightroom.  Presumably, ACR and Bridge will be left to wither and die as orphans without full support from Adobe.

Ah, but I hear the marketing pitch from Adobe--we are just responding to the needs of professional photographers, many of whom really want nothing more than a simplified set of tools to handle all their editing needs along with their file intake and retrieval.  Michael seems to be repeating that thought when he says: "For a large percentage of photographers, Lightroom will likely provide all of the image management and processing capability that one could wish. But for others, only Photoshop's advanced capabilities and sophisticated features will suffice. Some will love one, and hate the other. Many will use both. It's all about choices."  Right--Adobe is going to sell a new, simple product so that many of its best customers can choose to no longer to buy its flagship product, Photoshop?        It is ironic that some of the marketing pitch for Lightroom is that this product does everything many photographers need.  Only a few months ago, Jeff Schewe was posting on this site mocking the claims by Nikon that a product like Capture provides all the editing capability that many photographers need.  And now he has joined the cheering for Lightroom which makes essentially the same claim for an even more limited set of editing tools.  I think he was right the first time.

I hope I'm wrong, but to me the writing on the wall says that Adobe has a new strategy to leverage off the Photoshop monopoly and get customers to pay more for functionality that should all be included in Photoshop.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: DarkPenguin on January 10, 2006, 07:47:28 pm
I'm not sure I care.  I'm looking forward to RSP improving.  There aren't that many pictures I need to send to photoshop now.  (RAW converters are SO much nicer than they used to be.)
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: 61Dynamic on January 10, 2006, 08:04:40 pm
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Now it appears that Adobe's strategy will be to "unbundle" the file organization and raw conversion features into a new product
Unfounded speculation here. First, there were very few organizing features in Bridge. It was pretty much OS-level stuff with a few added benefits (such as ranking, renaming, raw conversion, etc). For me, my image managing remained in the Finder (or Explorer on PC) since those are faster than Bridge for most work.

The second part is the idea of unbundling. This part is complete speculation which I'll address in a moment.

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Presumably, ACR and Bridge will be left to wither and die as orphans without full support from Adobe.
Yes, very much presumably. There is no evidence whatsoever that Bridge will go away or that the Raw conversion ability in it will be removed. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary (http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2006/01/introducing_lightroom.html).
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Q. Does it replace Bridge?
A. In short, it depends on what you're doing and how you like to work. Some shooters will want to use Lightroom together with Photoshop much as they use Bridge today. For them having an interface that's 100% tuned to a photography workflow, plus Lightroom's unique features, will mean they use it in place of Bridge. For others, however, the broad range of capabilities in Bridge (e.g. integration with the Suite, previewing PDF and InDesign docs, talking to workgroup management tools, etc.) will make it a better choice some or all of the time. That means we plan to keep enhancing Bridge's photography workflow chops. You'll be able to mix and match the tools to suit your needs.
Emphasis added.

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Right--Adobe is going to sell a new, simple product so that many of its best customers can choose to no longer to buy its flagship product, Photoshop?
The market demands a product like Lightroom and so Adobe is making it and they will sell it. This is not difficult to understand. There are people who are reluctant to buy PS due to it's size and complexity. Many never buy it or buy it reluctantly thinking they have to. Those types never upgrade.

By selling a product that many people want and can use easily, customers will be happy and even enthused by new releases. Chances are that they will be more likely to purchase upgrades regularly thus brining in a new revenue stream that could surpass that they currently get from reluctant PS purchasers.

Your idea of LR being a bad idea since it'll take away from PS sales is about as ill thought out as saying RRS should not sell cheaper ball-heads such as the B-40 because that'll mean they'll sell fewer of their top-end B-55 ball-heads.

People buy more when they can buy what they want and what suits their needs and not when they feel forced into buying something that they'll not fully utilize.

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Only a few months ago, Jeff Schewe was posting on this site mocking the claims by Nikon that a product like Capture provides all the editing capability that many photographers need. And now he has joined the cheering for Lightroom which makes essentially the same claim for an even more limited set of editing tools. I think he was right the first time.
Do you even know what these two programs do, how they perform or what Mr Schewe was even talking about? Or did you come up with that just based on what Nikons PR department said and the bullet-point list for LR?
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: StephenS on January 10, 2006, 08:51:04 pm
I really welcome Lightroom, and am excited by it's potential. Once Adobe nails the feature set and improves some interface behaviours, I can see it supplanting Bridge/Camera RAw/Photoshop for much of my workflow.

I understand that after the app is finalized and the SDK becomes available, then 3d parties can add/integrate new modules. This may provide a perfect approach for something like PhotoKit Sharpener.

In the longer term, I'd like to see some sort of integration between a future version of Bridge and Lightroom. If Bridge could access/share Lightroom's databases and call upon Lightroom's enhanced Develops then I see a very slick integration that offers workflow choice and power.

In the meantime, I'm basing this on 2 frustrating hours running Lightroom on my wife's 12" Powerbook that barely meets minimum requirements. 4 freezes/crashes out of 6 attempted user sessions...one crash causing the entire UI to vanish when next launched (I re-installed after trashing all prefs an the db).

Jeff, I suppose we're all alpha testers now! (well, not quite, but close!)

Stephen
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Schewe on January 10, 2006, 09:13:58 pm
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Only a few months ago, Jeff Schewe was posting on this site mocking the claims by Nikon that a product like Capture provides all the editing capability that many photographers need.  And now he has joined the cheering for Lightroom which makes essentially the same claim for an even more limited set of editing tools.  I think he was right the first time.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=55661\")

Since my name was mentioned, I assume I'm justified in jumping in here...Nikon Capture VS Lightroom right now, Lightroom wins...Nikon Capture is a light duty raw processing app, Lightroom is a database driven digital asset management application with raw processing, slideshow and pretty heavy duty printing capability thrown in. Can you even print out of Nikon Capture?

I'll take the liberty of cross posting a post I made in the Lightroom forums (cause I'm too lazy to just re-write it here)

------------
Lightroom is a database driven digital photo tool that is particularly well suited to do metadata edits of images (primarily RAW but with similar controls and functionality with tif and jpg) and move those photos from import through either export or output ASAP.

Photoshop is a pixel based editing tool that is particularly well suited to the editing of actual pixels. Photoshop, without Camera Raw can't even open RAW images...there is no current method in Photoshop/Camera Raw to apply the exact same edits to RAW and tiff/jpgs. The RAW controls of Camera Raw can't easily be applied by using Photoshop's image adjustment controls.

Lightroom is designed for doing things that photographers need done...Photoshop is designed for things that digital imaging artists need done. There is a HUGE difference. Lightroom will never be the image compositing/retouching tool that Photoshop is and Photoshop, because of it's size and feature set can never be the workflow tool that Lightroom can be.

I love Photoshop...I'm real good in Photoshop...I love Lightroom too but for different tasks (and for different reasons). You need to get your head around the fundimental differences betweem a pixel editor (Photoshop) and a workflow tool (Lightroom).

Also, because Bridge is an image browser (yeah, it's got a lot more) it is NOT a database driven digital asset management tool. Bridge will always serve all of the apps in Creative Suite with even more functionality in the future for InDesign, Illustrator and others-not just Photoshop. It looks like the original Photoshop Browser, because that's where it came from and it's first incarnation, Bridge 1.0 is just that-it's currently best used with Photoshop...which is a pixel editor.

Lightroom, as simple as it may look now, is potentially _FAR_ more but for a smaller segment of the user base that is served by Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign. Digital imaging artists, retouchers, web artists, graphic designers, video artists, digital illustrators, prepress pros-all the groups that make up Photoshop's user base may not have any use for Lightroom. That's fine...Photoshop will continue and serve all of those groups.

Digital photographers-those people dealing with hundreds or thousands of digital captures however may find that Lightroom serves their purposes perfectly (if they pitch in and help Adobe develop the tool set and features they need).

Your choice really, pitch in and help design your dream workflow app, or just keep doing what you do in Bridge/Photoshop. But, at this point Lightroom ain't going away-Adobe has made the committment to photographers to develop it. So...what do you want it to be?
----------------

So, if you want to make a difference and help design your OWN digital imaging app, spend some time in the [a href=\"http://labs.macromedia.com/technologies/lightroom/]Lightroom Forums[/url]...
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: DarkPenguin on January 10, 2006, 10:35:05 pm
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So, if you want to make a difference and help design your OWN digital imaging app, spend some time in the Lightroom Forums (http://labs.macromedia.com/technologies/lightroom/)...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=55680\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So, will there be any app left to design by the time the windows version comes out?

Hmmm...  Off to pixmantec.  I think I need to brutalize their suggestion forum.

And why hasn't microsoft crushed you people into a windows first mentality?  Monopolies just aren't what they used to be.  Rockefeller must be rolling over in his grave.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: michael on January 10, 2006, 10:37:09 pm
For once Jeff you're much more polite than I would have been.

Michael
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: hubell on January 10, 2006, 11:00:52 pm
Quote from: Schewe,Jan 11 2006, 02:13 AM
Since my name was mentioned, I assume I'm justified in jumping in here...Nikon Capture VS Lightroom right now, Lightroom wins...Nikon Capture is a light duty raw processing app, Lightroom is a database driven digital asset management application with raw processing, slideshow and pretty heavy duty printing capability thrown in. Can you even print out of Nikon Capture?

Can image adjustments to photographs that are "processed" in  Lightroom be preserved as separate adjustment layers, or are the files single layer files that need to be opened in PS to do that type of layer-based editing? If it's the latter, it sounds to me that it is "just" a raw processor with some additional capabilities such as an integrated database, slide show generator and print center. Would it not make more sense to incorporate into Lightroom the core capabilities of PS that photographers use to labor over a single, exceptional file in order to produce the very best file for print output(rather than a huge number of pretty good files where the emphasis is on volume rather than quality).
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: jdemott on January 10, 2006, 11:01:10 pm
I knew I would attract some flack when I posted my thoughts.  With some luck, a few people close to Adobe will at least register the concerns I expressed.

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There is no evidence whatsoever that Bridge will go away or that the Raw conversion ability in it will be removed. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary.

I didn't claim to have evidence, just concerns, which I continue to feel are valid.  (FWIW, Bridge doesn't have raw conversion ability, but ACR does.)   If Adobe continues to make ACR and Bridge available as part of Photoshop and continues to improve them as aggressivesly as it does Lightroom, then I will be a happy customer.  As I said, I hope I'm wrong.

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Do you even know what these two programs do, how they perform or what Mr Schewe was even talking about? Or did you come up with that just based on what Nikons PR department said and the bullet-point list for LR?

I've been using Nikon Capture for over three years and ACR since it first became available.  My knowledge of Lightroom is very limited (as is most people's), but I know its raw conversion aspects are based on the ACR engine.  I have studied quite a few of the descriptions and tutorials on Lightroom (including those on Schewe's website) so I think I understand pretty well what it can and can't do.  In particular, it appears that Lightroom (like Capture) cannot do masking, partial selections, layers (although both have some ability to do non-destructive edits), blending modes, or painting and cloning.  

I am happily unaware of what the Nikon and Adobe marketing and PR departments serve up unless it is thrust in front of me, such as has been the case with Jeff Schewe's postings about Nikon Capture or the current hype about Lightroom.  So, I'm a somewhat satisfied user of both Capture and Photoshop, no more.  What's your agenda?

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Since my name was mentioned, I assume I'm justified in jumping in here...Nikon Capture VS Lightroom right now, Lightroom wins...Nikon Capture is a light duty raw processing app, Lightroom is a database driven digital asset management application with raw processing, slideshow and pretty heavy duty printing capability thrown in. Can you even print out of Nikon Capture?

Jeff, I assumed that you would see the post and I am glad you responded.  I well understand that Lightroom has a database backed file organization and retrieval capability, something that is not available in Capture.  I don't mean to question the value of that--for some users it could justify a significant extra cost.  However, when you posted several months ago, your focus was on the comparison between Photoshop and Capture as editing programs.  I believe the thrust of your comments (which I haven't reviewed recently but with which I posted a clear endorsement at the time) was that Capture is not a competitor to Photoshop as an editing program and that Nikon's claims to the contrary were nonsense.  Perhaps the whole point here is that we are comparing apples and oranges--Photoshop vs Capture as an editor, PS wins hands down; Capture vs ACR as a raw converter for NEF files, Capture wins;  Lightroom vs Capture as a database, Lightroom wins, of course.  

My concern is that Adobe's marketing position that Lightroom is a complete solution for some significant segment of professional photographers doesn't seem credible (not because of the database capabilities but because of the weak editing capabilities) which leads me to question what is really going on.  If I can get continual improvement and support in file organization and raw conversion in PS without buying another program I will be a happy customer.

FYI, you can print from Capture including with color profiles, but I don't use it for that purpose often since my workflow usually takes me through Photoshop anyway.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: jdemott on January 10, 2006, 11:04:46 pm
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For once Jeff you're much more polite than I would have been.

Perhaps that should be instructive to you.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: 61Dynamic on January 10, 2006, 11:07:44 pm
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And why hasn't microsoft crushed you people into a windows first mentality?  Monopolies just aren't what they used to be.  Rockefeller must be rolling over in his grave.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=55683\")
Nobody gives a hooey about MS anymore. The NYT has an [a href=\"http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/columns/powergrid/15456/index.html]interesting article[/url] on that very subject actually. It seams Bill just isn't as interested these days in killing all of the competition.

Anyway, LR started it's life on the Mac as this PSN article (http://photoshopnews.com/2006/01/09/the-shadowlandlightroom-development-story/) indicates.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Paul Sumi on January 11, 2006, 02:04:45 am
My current tools of choice are Capture One Pro and Photoshop CS (not CS2).  While I like CO's workflow and quality of RAW development, Phase One's antics with their user base over the past couple of years really make me nervous.

I'm rooting for ACR and LR to have a powerful RAW development capability, so I can have strong alternatives to CO on BOTH Windows and OS X platforms (I have a PC desktop and a Mac Powerbook, it's a long story).  Powerful image management is also a big attraction to me.

Paul
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Jason Cory on January 12, 2006, 01:34:56 am
I agree.

If Lightroom's editing functionality is not hugely extended before the final version is released, I don't really see how this program can be the one-stop solution for a reasonable segment of photographers. I have a Windows computer and haven't tried LR for myself, but, unless I've missed something, it lacks many basic capabilities. Michaels's article says that Adobe realizes that the lack of Crop and Rotate tools in the Beta version is serious, but what about Dodge/Burn, sharpening, cloning, etc?

I would much rather see Photoshop grow to incorporate the image management functionality and interface of LR than have to add yet another expensive piece of software to my workflow that will, at best, serve me as a pretty dashboard for Photoshop.

I'm not forgetting, of course, that this product is in Beta. It would be great to find in a year's time that LR has become a photographer's Photoshop. My crystal ball, though, says it will be much, much less.

And what premium price will we pay for this "professional" tool that should be bundled with the next version of Photoshop?

Jason
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 12, 2006, 06:32:16 am
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Since my name was mentioned, I assume I'm justified in jumping in here...Nikon Capture VS Lightroom right now, Lightroom wins...Nikon Capture is a light duty raw processing app, Lightroom is a database driven digital asset management application with raw processing, slideshow and pretty heavy duty printing capability thrown in. Can you even print out of Nikon Capture?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=55680\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff,

No doubt that Lightroom is a promising product that has the potential to deliver good value to many photographers.

The information you provide about Lightroom is also very valuable for those who are using the product or considering using it when it will have matured some more.

What I don't get is why you would even bother trying to convince us that you are providing objective information on the market value of Adobe products against the competition?

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Schewe on January 12, 2006, 07:58:44 am
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What I don't get is why you would even bother trying to convince us that you are providing objective information on the market value of Adobe products against the competition?
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Can you reference somewhere where I have _EVER_ indicated that it's my aim to provide "objective" anything? I aim to provide MY opinion...you can take it or leave it.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 12, 2006, 08:29:47 am
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Can you reference somewhere where I have _EVER_ indicated that it's my aim to provide "objective" anything? I aim to provide MY opinion...you can take it or leave it.
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Thank you for the clarification Jeff.

Some "keynote speakers" try to step back and provide an objective analysis of the market players, and your profile might have misled some passers by in thinking that you are in such a neutral position.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Quentin on January 12, 2006, 09:38:21 am
I share many of John DeMott's concerns, and I think most reasonable Photoshop users would also be concerned at *possible* unbundling of key parts of Photoshop.  Those concerns may prove to be unfounded if Bridge / ACR development continues alongside Lightroom, but at the moment, I worry that features that could have been included in Photoshop might be reserved for Lightroom in order to make that product as distinctive as possible.

Quentin
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: hubell on January 12, 2006, 09:45:22 am
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Thank you for the clarification Jeff.

Some "keynote speakers" try to step back and provide an objective analysis of the market players, and your profile might have misled some passers by in thinking that you are in such a neutral position.

Regards,
Bernard
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The battle lines have been drawn here between Apple and Adobe and their respective partisans/agents(think of the Empire Strikes Back), and it will be absolutely fascinating to watch how this plays out in the marketplace. Hard to handicap the battle for supremacy, though based upon their track records, Apple seems to be a better bet to succeed in creating an elegant, user friendly interface. What I do know is that we will all benefit from the intense competition.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: method on January 12, 2006, 10:16:43 am
Remember that Bridge has a wider remit as well. It is used across the whole Creative Suite to manage much more than images, so it may still have relevance even if there is another tool more aimed at Photographers.

Richard

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I share many of John DeMott's concerns, and I think most reasonable Photoshop users would also be concerned at *possible* unbundling of key parts of Photoshop.
Quentin
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Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Schewe on January 12, 2006, 01:37:55 pm
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What I do know is that we will all benefit from the intense competition.
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Yep, and that's the cool thing about all this...finally photographers are getting some love not only by Adobe but Apple as well.

Just so you all know, the guy who was primary engineer on Aperture used to work for Adobe on Premier who left to go to Macromedia (ironically) to develop Final Cut Pro. When Apple bought FCP (supposedly to keep MSFT from getting it) he went to Apple. The fellow who is developing Lightroom-at Adobe (Mark Hamburg) is still friends with with the engineer at Apple (Randy-whose last name I now forget). They exchanged emails (Mark congratulating Randy) when Aperture was released-I haven't heard of Randy has comunicated with Mark after the launch of Lightroom. But they are all hanging out around San Francisco for Macworld so I wouldn't be surprised if they ran into each other.

It's a much smaller industry than most people realize...Apple is only about 10 minutes or so from Adobe (although at rush hour it can be a LOT longer). MSFT however, is a plane ride away-one of the reasons I think MSFT doesn't play as well with others :~)
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Schewe on January 12, 2006, 01:44:35 pm
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I share many of John DeMott's concerns, and I think most reasonable Photoshop users would also be concerned at *possible* unbundling of key parts of Photoshop.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=55825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not at all worried about that...Lightroom will continue to be developed as a "metadata editor" and Photoshop will continue as a pixel editor-most of the respective features will be based upon one or the other emphasis. The one thing that will happen is that Bridge will continue to expand it's role toward more of the other apps in the Creative Suite but even then, more stuff will be added for dealing with images in spite of the dev of Lightroom.

The big boon is that now, Camera Raw is becoming even MORE important as it continues to expand the role it plays in Lightroom, Bridge and Photoshop–which is a good thing for people shooting RAW as it means even more R&D and resources will be invested by Adobe. Perhaps no, they can finally get Thomas Knoll some HELP!

:~)
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: 61Dynamic on January 12, 2006, 02:16:45 pm
Quote
The battle lines have been drawn here between Apple and Adobe and their respective partisans/agents(think of the Empire Strikes Back), and it will be absolutely fascinating to watch how this plays out in the marketplace. Hard to handicap the battle for supremacy, though based upon their track records, Apple seems to be a better bet to succeed in creating an elegant, user friendly interface. What I do know is that we will all benefit from the intense competition.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=55826\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
However, if history indicates anything it won't be until V5 of Aperture before is top-dog.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Paul Sumi on January 12, 2006, 02:55:48 pm
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The big boon is that now, Camera Raw is becoming even MORE important as it continues to expand the role it plays in Lightroom, Bridge and Photoshop–which is a good thing for people shooting RAW as it means even more R&D and resources will be invested by Adobe. Perhaps no, they can finally get Thomas Knoll some HELP!

:~)
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Jeff, I agree entirely.  I'm using Capture One fo RAW development now, but a next gen ACR would get serious consideration from me.

Paul
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: hubell on January 12, 2006, 06:15:14 pm
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However, if history indicates anything it won't be until V5 of Aperture before is top-dog.
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That's OK for me, as it will probably be right around the time that the whole medium format digital thing shakes out and settles down so that I can in good conscience buy a $30K medium format digital back and stop scanning medium format film.  
I don't use it, but how long did it take Apple to get Final Cut Pro right?
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: 61Dynamic on January 12, 2006, 08:06:45 pm
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That's OK for me, as it will probably be right around the time that the whole medium format digital thing shakes out and settles down so that I can in good conscience buy a $30K medium format digital back and stop scanning medium format film. 
I don't use it, but how long did it take Apple to get Final Cut Pro right?
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[a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Cut_Pro]According to the Wikipedia[/url], it came out in 1998 and first started to break into the feature film market in 2001 (with v3).
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Schewe on January 12, 2006, 09:29:03 pm
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I don't use it, but how long did it take Apple to get Final Cut Pro right?
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Final Cut Pro had a long and storied past...the basic concept of FCP was Randy's idea to replace the metafore for Adobe Premier. Adobe shut it down and Randy left Adobe and went to Macromedia where a lot of ex-Adobe employees have taken refuge over the years. Macromedia went throu a really tough period well before the .com bust-later 1990's-Macromedia and Randy shopped FCP around for a while (I think about 1 year or so). It was rumored that several companies were in the hunt including MSFT before Apple (Steve Jobs had just come back then) swooped in and scooped it up.

I was on the Apple CAB (Customer Advisory Board) and first saw a demo in 1997. I don't do editing so I didn't really know what I was looking at...but all the film guys on the CAB were creaming...at the time, Steve Jobs had just "Steved" the 6 PCI slot Mac and ended the Mac clones. Avid and Media 100 were seriously considering leaving (or did leave) the Mac space, so that's why Final Cut Pro was SO important to Apple at the time.

Randy is a talented guy...I seriously suspect photographers will enjoy the next couple of years seeing the rate of advance and development in software...it's about time too, the camera companies have been making HUGE leaps-even if their proprietary raw file format strategy sucks...

I'm in no way anti-Apple or Aperture...I'm clearly in the camp of Adobe. But as I indicated elsewhere, Silicon Valley makes for strange bedfellows...
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: hubell on January 12, 2006, 10:39:00 pm
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I'm in no way anti-Apple or Aperture...I'm clearly in the camp of Adobe. But as I indicated elsewhere, Silicon Valley makes for strange bedfellows...
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Strange bedfellows, indeed.  I just hope you did not take offense at my refernce to you as one of the Evil Empire's Storm Troopers, but I thought for sure you would be part of the Rebellion.  
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: John Camp on January 13, 2006, 01:22:56 pm
I was happy to see Lightroom because Adobe seems to respond well to the needs of photographers, and we *really* need a cross-platform visually-oriented data-base program specifically made for photographers. I've tried a couple of the other data-base programs, and they seem to be made for data-base users, rather than photographers. I had high hopes for Aperture, but so far, that has been disappointing, and I'm also somewhat wary of the fact that Aperture is apparently going to be an Mac-only app. Aperture also worries me a bit because like other Apple products, there seems to be an emphasis on coolness rather than function, and a photo data-base should be about function above all.

I also like the idea that Lightroom is a discrete program. That actually helps me organize my thinking in some way -- Photoshop has grown into such a huge, complex program, that I sometimes become confused about how to do what I want to do. I prefer the situation of being in Lightroom (so now I'm organizing and finding) and now I'm in Photoshop (so I'm fixing and cutting and pasting.) It may sound weird to the computer-adept, but the simple fact that there are two programs helps me out.

I would hope that Adobe brings in Lightroom at a reasonable price, but that may be a forlorn hope. If they've got a good underlying data-base program, and if they are really sensitive to what photographers need, and if THEY KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID, they will probably become the standard. Then they will probably become expensive.

JC
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Ray Maxwell on February 05, 2006, 10:17:09 pm
John, I agree with you.  Lightroom and Aperture are not for me.  

I have tried Lightroom and read all I can about Aperture.  These applications seem optimized for first time users (Modal step interface design) and photographers who do large volumes of images with minimal work on each image.  This is fine for wedding photographers or photojournalists, but that is not my bag.  

I am an artistic print maker.  I spend at least 30 mins on every image I print.  I want the control and tools in Adobe Bridge, Adobe Camera RAW, and Photoshop.  I do a lot of B&W from my Leaf Valeo 22 and Canon 5D.  I use the channel mixer, Levels, Curves, and the Highlights and Shadows filter to get exactly the tonality that I want. I do that on every image.  I build masks and do a lot of selective work on many images.

Ansel Adams would not use Lightroom.  Given the work he did per print and the his Zone System, I am sure he would want all the control he could get.

I like the ability to put all of the pallets on my second monitor and get at any command in a instant.  I don't like the modal design where I have to switch from one mode to the next.  Of course I have to switch from Bridge to Photoshop.  I would hope for even more integration in future versions of Bridge and Photoshop.

To each his own.  I hope Adobe continues to develop in both directions.  One size does not fit all.

I am somewhat puzzled by Michael’s enthusiasm for this application, given the type of photography he does.  I have always assumed he did as much postproduction work per print as I do.  Perhaps he does all the work before he clicks the shutter.  I am not that good yet.  

Ray
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: michael on February 05, 2006, 10:38:16 pm
Over the past couple of years I have found that I do 90% of my image processing in Camera Raw and very little in Photoshop itself.

Lightroom has everything that Camera Raw has, and then some – such as the superior Grayscale conversion and much more intuative and easy to use Curves tool.

And when you then add printing capability with the power of a RIP (in terms of layout), a slide show, keywording, cataloging, archiving etc. By the time it comes out as a shipping product this fall Lightroom will provide in one program the most important features of Photo Mechanic for file ingesting, Camera Raw for raw processing, Iview Media Pro for cataloging, the ability to apply raw control equivalents to non-raw files, superior printing and on and on and.... all in one program.

Frankly, it's a breath of fresh air. Not to mention the opportunity that almost everyone currently has to provide Adobe with input on features that they'd like to see.

Yes, I'm enthusiastic about Lightroom. I think that within the next couple of years Lightroom and Aperture will dominate the image processing scene for photographers. Photoshop will still have a role, but for many these two new programs will be all that's needed.

Michael
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: Ray on February 05, 2006, 11:59:08 pm
Hhmm! I'm quite enamoured of the idea of doing as much processing as needed in the RAW converter. Perhaps this is a major reason for my favouring RSP over ACR. I can go straight from RawShooter to Qimage and make a satisfyingly good print, with some images anyway. Other images might need some selective lightening and darkening in PS, but getting most of the work done at the conversion stage seems a better way to me.

I look forward to being able to use the lightroom finished product. Since I'm not a Mac user, I don't feel I can have much useful input at this stage.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: jani on February 06, 2006, 10:23:16 am
Quote
Lightroom has everything that Camera Raw has, and then some – such as the superior Grayscale conversion and much more intuative and easy to use Curves tool.
Uhm, but Lightroom does not currently have:

 - the crop tool
 - the straightening tool

Unless I've somehow managed to overlook a less-than-obvious control for this (it certainly isn't in the menus ).
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: michael on February 06, 2006, 10:47:16 am
Beta 2 does.  

Patience. Patience.

Michael
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: DarkPenguin on February 06, 2006, 10:47:44 am
Quote
Uhm, but Lightroom does not currently have:

 - the crop tool
 - the straightening tool

Unless I've somehow managed to overlook a less-than-obvious control for this (it certainly isn't in the menus ).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=57542\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll check the windows version and see if it has that....  Nope.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: jani on February 06, 2006, 10:56:08 am
Quote
Beta 2 does. 
I feel it's almost entirely appropriate to yell "you bastaaard!" here.

Quote
Patience. Patience.
I'm not a grasshopper!

This reminds me that I should set aside the time for testing the program a bit more thoroughly and provide useful feedback on the Adobe Lightroom forums.
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: miamitom on March 14, 2006, 12:53:50 pm
I guess I should have posted the following here first ... since my comment is a mild RANT!!
In todays world of working on the road with your laptop, location shoots for stills and film, being restricted to a particular location for your files is ...... ancient and KLUDGY!!!!
The next thing you know Adobe and Apple will want you to have 14inch platters to store data or .... PUNCH CARDS! AND only buy the cards from IBM!
There are lots of thrid party programs and plug ins that are worlds ahead of Lightroom and Apature .... AND some are even FREE!!!!
I am .... well more or less speachless.
Just MHO.
Tom
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: bob mccarthy on March 14, 2006, 03:29:06 pm
Quote
I'll check the windows version and see if it has that....  Nope.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=57545\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You really caught me on this one!!!!!

I was looking all over the Lightroom site for it....

Then I realized........

bob
Title: Why is this a good thing?
Post by: gryffyn on March 16, 2006, 11:23:16 am
Quote
I'll check the windows version and see if it has that....  Nope.

Windows version?  When was that released???

And where can it be found?

I hear it's hosted on the Apple site....