Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: bjornaagedk on December 01, 2005, 01:29:51 pm

Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: bjornaagedk on December 01, 2005, 01:29:51 pm
A few weeks ago I bought an Epson 4800 and the ImagePrint 6.1 RIP.

I have had Imageprint since version 5 and used it with my Epson 2100.
After days of experimenting with the 4800 and the Phatte Black solution, my conclusion is that ImagePrint does a VERY good job when we are talking about color printing on both matte and glossy/lustre papers. I have tried various papers with matching profiles from the ColorByte profile library and the result is first class prints out of the printer everytime.
I normally make my own printer profiles with the EyeOne Pro, but the ImagePrint profiles are so good that there are no need to try to make a better profile. Very good.

BUT - when it comes to Black & White printing with ImagePrint I am still not satisfied. Matte papers (with matte black) works fine, but I have trouble with bronzing as soon as I switch to Glossy or Lustre papers.

I have never been 100% satisfied with ImagePrint Black&White. It is free of metamerism, yes, but speaking ultimate quality, both on matte and glossy papers, I still prefer the Ultratone inks from MIS (www.inksupply.com). Their EZN / EZW inks for the Epson C86 or UT7 for Epson 2100 makes black&white in its own class. With these inks and the time to fine tune the process, you will get absolutely outstanding black&white with a depth that I have not seen from ImagePrint yet.
It is not as easy as ImagePrint, but almost, but the result is much better and you will be able to switch from cool to warm tone with adjustments in the epson driver.
ImagePrint can tint Black&White prints also, the result is mostly OK, but it can not beat the tone from UT7.

The end of my experiments was that I switched back to having LightLightBlack in the Epson 4800 again, which improved the quality on lustre/glossy papers and on black&white also.
Now I use the 4800 with photo black and use the 2100/UT7 setup for all my black&white printing.

B
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 01, 2005, 03:44:59 pm
Bjorn,

If you compare ImagePrint 6.1 with the Epson 4800 driver for Epson Enhanced Matte paper making color prints, do you find ImagePrint does much better at rendering deep shadow detail?
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: digitaldog on December 01, 2005, 04:04:29 pm
Quote
BUT - when it comes to Black & White printing with ImagePrint I am still not satisfied. Matte papers (with matte black) works fine, but I have trouble with bronzing as soon as I switch to Glossy or Lustre papers.

They say the try to reduce the bronzing compared to the Epson driver. But I think this is still an Epson ink/paper issue and only so much can be done with the driver. Are you seeing less bronzing using the Epson driver?
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: eleanorbrown on December 08, 2005, 10:03:46 pm
I'm printing on my 7800 using IP Phatte black system.  All works very well and profiles are right on..The only problem is with bronzing on gloss/luster papers especally with black and white printing.  It is unacceptable.  However, this becomes a non issue if the paper can sucessfully be sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield spray---a couple of light coats will usually do fine.  Eliminates all bronzing.  I find that bronzing will happen whenever two tones of black are used whether in an epson driver or Imageprint.  No custom dithering or custom profiles can eliminate this.... In my opinion bronzing is an issue of (color) ink reflectance and paper surface, not the driver or profiles.  I can put my light light black ink  back into my printer and print using three blacks with either IP 6.1 K3 system or the epson driver.  Most bronzing is completely eliminated and spray is usually not needed.  Eleanor

Quote
They say the try to reduce the bronzing compared to the Epson driver. But I think this is still an Epson ink/paper issue and only so much can be done with the driver. Are you seeing less bronzing using the Epson driver?
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Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: colourperfect on December 09, 2005, 01:25:16 pm
I would love to see a direct comparison between Imageprint and QuadToneRIP for B+W prints.

Has anybody seen such a review

Ian

http://profiles.colourperfect.co.uk (http://profiles.colourperfect.co.uk)
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 11, 2005, 10:41:54 pm
Quote
I'm printing on my 7800 using IP Phatte black system.  All works very well and profiles are right on..The only problem is with bronzing on gloss/luster papers especally with black and white printing.  It is unacceptable.  However, this becomes a non issue if the paper can sucessfully be sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield spray---a couple of light coats will usually do fine.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=53097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eleanor,

Do you still see benefits in using a 7800 over a 7600/4000 when printing with IP Phatte Black system?

My understanding was that the disapearance of bronzing on glossy papers was one of the main benefits of K3 inks.

Another question, TCain commented a few months ago that he was concerned by the potential impact of the finish sprays on the longevity of the prints. Does that not come as a concern for you?

Thank you in advance for your kind insights.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 11, 2005, 11:51:23 pm
Eleanor,

Bernard's question is right-on, but my reading of your post seems to suggest it is answered: you seem to be saying that the Epson 7800 does indeed eliminate bronzing on coated media as long as one is using original Epson K3 photo-black ink which they designate for those media types, but the problem is not solved with IP Phatte Black ink. Hence if I read you correctly, your post indicates that the Epson set-up is doing what it was advertised to do, but Image Print's Phatte Black is not. If that is a correct interpretation of your post and indeed what happens, it comes as a disappointment to people with 4800/7800/9800 printers who would have perceived IP6.1 with Phatte Black as having our cake and eating it (i.e. no change of inks with change of media).

Cheers,

Mark
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 11, 2005, 11:59:36 pm
Mark,

We are on the same page I think, I read Eleanor's post the same way you do.

Assuming that our interpretation is correct, I was wondering if K3 inks used with IP Phatte black do offer other advantages (beyond bronzing reduction) that still make the K3 + Phatte Black combo interesting.

I was for instance thinking of DR etc...

Regards,
Bernard
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 12, 2005, 12:18:47 am
Bernard, I don't have IP and therefore haven't played with Phatte Black - Eleanor should advise on DR etc., but I did test IP at a retailer here in Toronto for dealing with those challenged images I have (ref. the deep shadow detail thread) and it didn't do any better than the Epson driver and profile. Now their 9800 was not loaded with Phatte Black, but it would surprise me ALOT if Phatte Black made that kind of difference - it was directed primarily at creating a solution to the ink change issue that, if successful, would give IP a niche in a market that is perhaps being technically marginalized in some respects because of the high quality, consistency and reliability of Epson's new inks, software and firmware.
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 12, 2005, 12:36:27 am
Quote
Bernard, I don't have IP and therefore haven't played with Phatte Black - Eleanor should advise on DR etc., but I did test IP at a retailer here in Toronto for dealing with those challenged images I have (ref. the deep shadow detail thread) and it didn't do any better than the Epson driver and profile. Now their 9800 was not loaded with Phatte Black, but it would surprise me ALOT if Phatte Black made that kind of difference - it was directed primarily at creating a solution to the ink change issue that, if successful, would give IP a niche in a market that is perhaps being technically marginalized in some respects because of the high quality, consistency and reliability of Epson's new inks, software and firmware.
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Mark,

I understand, you are most probably correct on that.

I guess that we are in slightly different situations. I am still a 4000 user considering whether he should upgrade to a 7800 at some point of time.

The ink change issue is bothering me a lot, and I am wondering whether K3 + Phatte black does still have the claimed K3 advantages compared to my 4000.

I would probably still be using the Hahnemhule papers with the 7800, so that I am not that troubled right now by shadow detail, but my main interest is whether claimed advantages of K3 inks other than bronzing (better DR, more saturated colors,...) are still present when using Phatte Black.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 12, 2005, 09:14:03 am
Bernard, it looks to me as if it would be useful to accumulate more test results from Forum members or others who have Phatte Black to see whether a consensus emerges on how successful it is at maintaining K3 quality on coated media while solving the ink change problem.
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 12, 2005, 09:18:07 am
Mark,

Yes, having those kind of information would be extremely helpful.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: eleanorbrown on December 12, 2005, 04:15:59 pm
Regarding IP 6.1 and phatte black.  It is excellent and i plan to continue  keeping that system in my 7800.  As far as the bronzing is concerrned...yes it is there and no profile or RIP is going to get rid of it as long as you are limited to two blacks and color inks to form your grayscale prints (my opinion--others may disagree).  The problem depends on how particular one is....I am picky to a fault and am a bit compulsive about things like this. This may not bother the next person, but the bronzing in my monotone images on glossy/luster papers using Phatte bothers me.  Bronzing is greater with premium luster than it is using premium glossy and the degree of bronzing will vary from paper to paper and from image file to image file.  I have chosen to solve this with 2 light sprays of premier art print shield.  this doesn't concern me.  Bronzing completely disappears using this method.  I also love the fine art rag papers so plan on keeping the two ink system with IP 6.1 in my printer.  There is no difference in the matte profiles using phatte black from those using K3 ink system.  Can't tell the difference.

The K3 inks in my 7800 and 2400 printers are definitely superior to the regular ultrachrone inks (I have a 4000 also which I will probably sell).  Metamerism with thee K3 inks is close to non existent ....when printing with my 4000, my prints are more prone to shift color in different lighting situations.  Hope this helps, Eleanor
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 12, 2005, 07:53:41 pm
Eleanor,

Interesting what you say, because I just re-read Michael Reichmann's review of IP6.1 with Phatte Black and he seems quite satisfied that it works as advertised, after doing extensive testing with numerous papers. Not to say that you're wrong and he's right or vice versa, but just interesting to observe two very different judgments about the same issue. Either its in the eye of the beholder or there are significant differences in your respective printing environments.
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: jule on December 12, 2005, 08:56:34 pm
Eleanor, You mention the evidence of bronzing in your monotone prints using the phatte black system with the ImagePrint RIP, have you tried it with colour prints on both matte and glossy papers as well. I am interested in your findings (and anyone else who is using the phatte black system who would kindly share their results)

Julie
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: eleanorbrown on December 12, 2005, 11:00:45 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but personally I haven't read any advertised guarentees that there won't be any bronzing with the Phatte black system on monotone prints done using papers that require photo black. Or maybe I missed seeing these guarantees.  Frankly, It really didn't matter either way because there are enough advantages of the phatte black set up that I am willing to tolerate some bronzing, which as I mentioned becomes a non issue once I apply a couple of coats of premier art spray.  I have essentially no tolerence for bronzing so what might bother me might not bother the next person...simple as that.  As I said, I'm picky to a fault when it comes to printing.

I've printed both color and monotone (color and photo black using Phatte black system presents much less of a problem with bronzing.  Bronzing is primarily a issus involving monotone printing.  I also "warm tone" most of my monotone prints  (using IP toning options) so this may add to the bronzing too as i am using more color inks.

I've printed on both matte and luster/gloss papers--both color and monotone and as I mentioned plan to stay with the Phatte black system.  I think it is incredibly innovative and an excellent time and money saver and produces superb results.  I recommend it highly. (Just get a can of premier art print shield if you plan on doing monotone prints on luster papers).  Eleanor

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Eleanor,

Interesting what you say, because I just re-read Michael Reichmann's review of IP6.1 with Phatte Black and he seems quite satisfied that it works as advertised, after doing extensive testing with numerous papers. Not to say that you're wrong and he's right or vice versa, but just interesting to observe two very different judgments about the same issue. Either its in the eye of the beholder or there are significant differences in your respective printing environments.
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Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: jule on December 12, 2005, 11:08:52 pm
Thanks so much Eleanor.
Julie
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 13, 2005, 10:01:50 pm
Thank you for your kind feedback Eleanor.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: jmccart on January 11, 2006, 06:10:56 pm
After reading all the information for this forum and Pete Myers excellent article, I decided to call Colorbyte to see they could give me the name of someone in Atlanta that was using the 6.1 Phatte Black system.  I have called 4 times between the hours of 9am and 5:30pm to the main number.  Each time I received a voice mail answer asking me to leave a message.  They are not returning my calls.  If they have this much trouble just calling a potential customer back, I seriously question their future.  Have any of you experienced this problem?
thank you,
Jerry
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: digitaldog on January 11, 2006, 09:12:49 pm
-->In my opinion bronzing is an issue of (color) ink reflectance and paper surface, not the driver or profiles.

Absolutely. While IP can help, it’s not a cure. Only Epson can hopefully solve this, maybe with K4. And you are correct, I’ve never heard ColorByte say they can and will eliminate all bronzing.
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: Stephen Best on January 12, 2006, 02:45:38 am
Quote
Absolutely. While IP can help, it’s not a cure. Only Epson can hopefully solve this, maybe with K4.
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I thought they had with the (full) K3 inkset ... at least I haven't seen bronzing on any prints I've done.
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: bjornaagedk on January 12, 2006, 02:53:28 am
Quote
I thought they had with the (full) K3 inkset ... at least I haven't seen bronzing on any prints I've done.
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Bronzing is almost non existent with the FULL K3 inkset, both in color- and bw. prints.
But if you print with IP6.1 Phatte Black (where the LLB inks is replaced by matte black)
there is bronzing like with the previous Epson inks.
That is what makes the Phatte Black system unusable for me, because this method does
not give the advantage of the full K3 inkset. It has advantages if you switch a lot between matte
and glossy papers, but if you print mostly on glossy, phatte black is not ideal.
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: eleanorbrown on January 12, 2006, 10:12:47 am
Well, I'm going to have to eat my words about what I said concerning continuing use of Phatte black and it many advantages (which it has).  since I have been beta testing the new Crane Silver Rag paper and wanted the best possible black and white prints so I switched my 7800 back to the three shades of black/gray.  With IP Phatte black system on the Crane paper I got significant bronzing and I didn't like the paper surface as much after I sprayed with the PremierArt Print Shield.  Using Imageprint with all K3 blacks on this new paper gives me prints (with a Dmax of 2.46) that are all as good as my selenium toned darkroom prints.  With the K3 system there is absolutely no bronzing--none.  My Museo silver rag prints can remain upsprayed which is good because the paper has a lovely surface in itself.  eleanor


Quote
Bronzing is almost non existent with the FULL K3 inkset, both in color- and bw. prints.
But if you print with IP6.1 Phatte Black (where the LLB inks is replaced by matte black)
there is bronzing like with the previous Epson inks.
That is what makes the Phatte Black system unusable for me, because this method does
not give the advantage of the full K3 inkset. It has advantages if you switch a lot between matte
and glossy papers, but if you print mostly on glossy, phatte black is not ideal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=55808\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: Tonsil on January 12, 2006, 11:52:27 am
Form Colorbyte's website....


"PHATTE BLACK IS HERE !
Phatte Black is an exciting new option that will allow users of the new Epson 4800, 7800 and 9800's to keep both the matte black, and photo black inks loaded at the same time, with no loss in quality! With the Phatte Black option, light-light black isn't used, but it won't be missed--print's made with Phatte Black show virtually no difference when compared with prints made with the standard configuration."


"with no loss in quality!"

????? (note the exclamation mark)

They do qualify their statement that light light black "won't be missed" by saying that "prints made with phatte black show "virtually no difference"....

That qualification is a little soft in my opinion. Do they think that people won't notice this issue after some time? Prints always look remarkable after the printer spits them out. After a litte time, when the thrill wears off, the flaws come to be seen. Spraying prints is pretty much of a drag IMHO. you might as well be back in the chemical darkroom. dust can and does settle on the surface while they are drying, it stinks...we just shouldn't have to do this.

Sales speak, such a spin game. One of the big gains, if not the biggest gain, from the K3 system is the almost complete elimination of bronzing etc. It seems like a huge leap for Colorbyte to say that LLK won't be missed. I am reading more and more, that people are dissatisfied with their results in terms of bronzing and gloss differential when using the Phatte system w/glossy & semi-gloss papers.

I feel that this is a huge issue and that Colorbyte should come clean with this sort of language on their promotional material....Colorbyte already has a lot of people badmouthing them because of their support policies. They are very stingy when it comes to support and charge a pretty good buck to guide you when you have problems, after your intitial support period expires. Yeah, you save some money on ink swaps but at what cost? The cost is basically doing without one of the major gains of the Epson K3 system.

Yes, the profiles are right on and can produce great prints WITH bronzing, seems like you might as well be using ultrachrome inks and PK with the older Imageprint software...I mean, what is the real gain without the LLK????...Colorbyte has already proven that they can outdo the Epson drivers when it comes to prints with no metamerism and neutral tone..that is old news in some respect. It seems like the big coup would have been to deliver on the bronzing issue. In the end, I spose it comes down to the fact that we need one more ink slot from Epson.

Planned obsolescence is a very healthy concept for any company...did you ever see the movie called The Man in the White Suit with Alec Guinness, 1951? It's about a man who invents a fabric that will not wear out or get dirty. He soon has the entire garment industry on his tail looking to get him and do bad things to him. In the end, he is outside and it begins to rain and the suit begins to fall apart. He is dismissed from his job with textile company he works for and then, at the very end, has an inspiration as to how to how make the cloth work properly and he exclaims.."I see!"

 I am sure that these companies recognize the planned obsolescence concept and that their technologies are well ahead of the actual release points for their products, at least somewhat. I wish the release schedules were more tidy because I am in the constant cycle of getting ready to spend and I hate it. The first noises with regard to digital photography were about the convenience and cost savings that could be reaped...Ugh, could this be any more false in the reality we are in right now? Time at the computer screen...pre-press issues...printing issues, longevity, image quality. I spend way more time in post than ever before and my overhead is in a constant upward spiral. All this in a time when photography and creative dollar rates are in a squeeze.


Epson and the camera companies etc., are releasing products at such an intense rate and they are fully aware that they have the consumer and professional public at their mercy and spending huge amounts of moeny to buy the items that get them as close as they can be to the best emulation of traditional photography. You can hear the "justification" in the consumer when they say that inkjet printing is a "different" aesthetic..this with regard to printing on matte papers in particular. Yeah they look good. However, you can bet that given the choice between an actual photo and an ink jet print on matte paper, most would jump to the photo as the holy grail..when you are spending scads of money, it is easy to create these justifications in order to soothe one's expenditure.

Just my two cents on Colorbyte Software's and all the other companies' "speak". Don't get me wrong, when it gets there (it almost is) it's going to be great...If im still kicking.
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: eleanorbrown on January 12, 2006, 12:11:52 pm
When you compare the actual profiles (irrespective of the bronzing issues) the phatte black and K3 mode do match.  can't tell the difference, and i think that's probably what the advertising is based on.  Note: the word "bronzing" is not used in the advertisment so I agree it can be misleading.  However if you want to spray your photo black prints (especially the monotone prints) , which I didn't mind doing until Museo Silver Rag came along, you can quite successfully use the Phatte black system with superb results.  In essence you can have the best of both worlds with a can of spray nearby.

Bronzing is a issue and even tho I'm a fan of Imageprint  it would help clarify things if they would address specifically the bronzing issue.  I mean after all, the bronzing is an issue of ink reflectance using two blacks, it's an epson ink thing.  Colorbyte does the best that can be done considering the ink chemistry.  Eleanor
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: Tonsil on January 12, 2006, 01:09:45 pm
Eleanor,

With all due respect, the statement made by Colorbyte of "no loss in quality" is a blanket statement and is not an accurate one. "Quality" is a very general thing and these words were, no doubt, chosen to generate sales. They imply that there is no loss in "quality"..period. Except that,  there is significant bronzing on gloss and semi gloss papers. That is my beef. They qualify with the "virtually no difference" statment and that word.."virtually" is the only hint that they give you to indicate that there may be a hitch...isn't there always a hitch? Virtually is one of those words that you have to learn to raise an eyebrow at.


I've grown to be suspicious, forgive me. I've Spent a lot of money on each stage.

I love Imageprint and have no quarrel with the general accuracy of profiles. They are excellent.

Yes, it may be an Epson issue but it is a known issue and right now Epson is the leader in developing and actively pursuing the perfection of these techonologies. There are a host of other compnaies out there that are creating side market products for use in Epson printers but most of those excel in the matte paper world...a world without a quality black. My issue is not with the inability at this point in time, on Colorbyte's part, to solve the Bronzing issue along with the ink swap issue.

The issue is with the way they present their product in marketing terms. In plain words "no loss in quality" is a lie, flat out, because one very important component of "quality" in this case, is the bronzing issue.

Anyhow, time to make the donuts
Title: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White
Post by: Brian Gilkes on January 12, 2006, 04:34:30 pm
The K3 inkset produces markedly superior greyscale prints than the earlier Ultrachrome does. Black are blacker, tonallity smoother. This is a product both of denser pigments and the third black.
I do not use ImagePrint, but I have been advised that the loss of K3 in the Phatte system adversely affects.  highlight tonality, especially in black and white , but also in colour images.
I would love to get around the stupid and expensive ink change problem too, but I am not convinced Phatte is it. At the moment it is another printer or wait for a possible fix in a next generation printer.
Another answer would be a third party RIP with a kit to add a ninth ink.
Sigh
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au