Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Justinr on July 12, 2014, 09:20:29 am
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Good idea or not?
The D3 is proving an absolute nightmare when it comes to dust and a puffer brush/blower is about as effective as passing wind in the general direction of the sensor on a stormy day. So do I use short shots of canned air instead? It strikes me that the volume and speed of gas is much higher and more likely to remove debris from the sensor, its expansion will also cause the dust to be swept out of the camera body while a puffer brush may blow as much rubbish into the body as it removes.
The downsides are that it could push dust into awkward places and embed particles more firmly into the sensor surface, or so I read.
I never had a dust issue to this extent on the Pentax's and the Mamiya rarely suffers and a puffer brush does sort the problem when it happens.
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Likely not.
Expansion of the gas causes auto refrigeration which will chill the sensor locally. Try it on your finger first. It may also condense moisture out the air
Canned "air" may not be air.
Liquid contaminants - used to be an issue, usually oils but it may not be as much.
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Likely not.
Expansion of the gas causes auto refrigeration which will chill the sensor locally. Try it on your finger first. It may also condense moisture out the air
Canned "air" may not be air.
Liquid contaminants - used to be an issue, usually oils but it may not be as much.
Canned 'air' is butane I believe. Will refrigeration cause distortion of the sensor if aimed across it and used gently thus lowering the temp of whole sensor? It's not something I had not thought of but it's a possibility I guess. As for contaminants I should imagine that the primary market for the product, the computer hardware industry, would be rather fussy on that score as well.
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_duster
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Do CO2 dusters work better.
Like this http://www.walmart.com/ip/CleanDr-CO2-Air-Duster/20371298
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Same thermal issue. Plus you can condense moisture out of the air.
Why not use one of the wet clean kits ?
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I use a dry/wet combo to clean when necessary: a brush spinner thingie (spins to destatic & shed particles prior to sweeping the brush across the sensor); and a swab suffused with Eclipse fluid. A delicate touch is beneficial.
-Dave-
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I use a dry/wet combo to clean when necessary: a brush spinner thingie (spins to destatic & shed particles prior to sweeping the brush across the sensor); and a swab suffused with Eclipse fluid. A delicate touch is beneficial.
-Dave-
Something I sadly lack.... :(
Hence the hope that an occasional blowing out with canned air would do the trick as it accumulates dust far faster than any camera I've used up until now.
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I've been using canned gas for over seven years on two bodies with no apparent ill effects, but I strictly follow the following:
1) Never shake the can. In fact, I position the can on my desk some time before the intended use, and don't move it again - I only move the camera in order to blow on the sensor.
2) Never blow at anything but the sensor, not the mirror box, not the mirror or pentaprism.
3) Only blow in short intermittent blasts with a second or two between blasts - this lessens the chance of the refrigerant effect.
I'm not sure how one would "freeze" a sensor considering that all the materials are already frozen (solids). If one aimed at one spot and held the blast continuously at that spot, it could be possible to induce differential temperature stresses. But in truth, the sensor is so small that this would actually difficult to achieve with the amount of movement one normally exhibits when hold the camera body.
In any event, there are countless users that routinely subject their camera bodies to ambient temperatures that are well below what the manufactures recommend in their manuals - with no apparent harmful effects.
Like any operation involving a fine instrument, one must exercise a reasonable amount of caution and intelligence in the procedure.
If the refrigerant doesn't remove the spots, a wet cleaning is in order.
In any event, I will continue to use this method, and don't expect any terrible things to happen.
Glenn
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Good idea or not?
Everything I've ever read has said NOT to do this.
One person's experience of not having damaged his camera is probably too small a sample to trust. One small difference in product or technique might make all the difference.
when it comes to dust and a puffer brush/blower is about as effective as passing wind in the general direction of the sensor on a stormy day.
Puffer brushes are horrible at the best of times and to be avoided. Every brush based product I've let near a digital sensor has always been a disaster causing more problems than it solves, even the horribly expensive ones.
What I've found works well is the hurricane bulb blowers (NO brush). These give a controlled big blast of air and shift most debris. Anything particularly suborn will need wet cleaning.
If you've real dust problems the only real answer is to move to a camera with automatic sensor cleaning. Moving to a 5Dii was a revelation for me, in the last four years all the sensor has ever needed is a quick blow from the Hurricane once a year to keep it clean. My previous DSLRs all seemed to need very regular and time consuming cleaning.
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I'm another long term canned air user, way back to the D100 and 1ds.
Far better results than any other method. Only ever needed a wet clean a few times for stuck dirt.
Ymmv
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Hi,
I have used Arctic Butterfly with great success since 2006, no need for wet cleaning at all. It uses electrostatic charge on a small brush.
Canned air may be OK, but may have risk. It is not air but probably some condensable gas like propane. Don't smoke using it :-)
Best regards
Erik
Good idea or not?
The D3 is proving an absolute nightmare when it comes to dust and a puffer brush/blower is about as effective as passing wind in the general direction of the sensor on a stormy day. So do I use short shots of canned air instead? It strikes me that the volume and speed of gas is much higher and more likely to remove debris from the sensor, its expansion will also cause the dust to be swept out of the camera body while a puffer brush may blow as much rubbish into the body as it removes.
The downsides are that it could push dust into awkward places and embed particles more firmly into the sensor surface, or so I read.
I never had a dust issue to this extent on the Pentax's and the Mamiya rarely suffers and a puffer brush does sort the problem when it happens.
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Everything I've ever read has said NOT to do this.
One person's experience of not having damaged his camera is probably too small a sample to trust. One small difference in product or technique might make all the difference.Puffer brushes are horrible at the best of times and to be avoided. Every brush based product I've let near a digital sensor has always been a disaster causing more problems than it solves, even the horribly expensive ones.
What I've found works well is the hurricane bulb blowers (NO brush). These give a controlled big blast of air and shift most debris. Anything particularly suborn will need wet cleaning.
If you've real dust problems the only real answer is to move to a camera with automatic sensor cleaning. Moving to a 5Dii was a revelation for me, in the last four years all the sensor has ever needed is a quick blow from the Hurricane once a year to keep it clean. My previous DSLRs all seemed to need very regular and time consuming cleaning.
Which leaves something of a conundrum for what we read everywhere about using puffer brushes just doesn't work, so if the various blogs and notes are wrong on that score why shouldn't they also be wrong on using canned 'air'? Most of them are written by Phil Space type characters who will feel the need to cover their backsides and dish out the usual inanity's while carefully trying to appear to be saying something sensible, which is why I often find the web so shallow, present company excepted of course (that particular rant over :) ).
As for changing the camera I've just spent good money on switching to another brand based on image quality rather than it's ability to cope with dust. The Pentax K5 never gave me a problem dust wise but you begin to wonder just how 'professional' a camera like the D3 is if it relies on some overly complex masking function to help overcome the problem post capture rather than have some arrangement to reduce its occurrence in the first place, in other words if Pentax can do it on 'semi pro' cameras why can't Nikon do it on their flagship models? (rant No 2 over :) )
EDIT: I've just been on to the web again looking for references to this issue and it seems there are others who's D3 has been something of a dust magnet, so the question is would it have affected my decision to swap brands if I'd known about it? Probably not.
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Canned air can work but as several others posted you have to be careful as if you shake or even moved the can you run the risk of getting the propellant on the sensor and that will more than likely stain. It's simple to test this as when you spray just move the can a bit and see if you don't get a bit of white on the surface you are spraying. That is the propellant. You also have to be VERY careful with "pure" CO2 cartridges. Many of these are meant for air guns and contain lubricant for the gun. They can make a total mess of things.
I still have very good results with a rocket brand blower brush. If that won't work than I will try the Visible dust brushes. Then wet cleaning. For wet I use the Visible Dust solutions and swabs.
Paul
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Should anybody still be wondering why I want a quick and easy answer to dust on the sensor here are a couple from today -
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:-)
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Paul
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:-)
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Paul
Aye, and as I look at the photos from the morning I can see an increasing amount of dust accumulating on the sensor even though I never changed the lens or opened the camera up in any way.
That drill, BTW, uses compressed air to power the head and once spent the exhaust air blows the pulverised rock and dust back up to the surface, there is meant to be a dust collection vacuum system at the base of the derrick but it doesn't catch it all as we can see. To keep the sun behind me I had to stand downwind of the machine. :-(
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http://www.digitaltoyshop.co.uk/Eyelead_sensor_cleaning_kit_SCK-1_t2649_6789 (http://www.digitaltoyshop.co.uk/Eyelead_sensor_cleaning_kit_SCK-1_t2649_6789)
Wouldn't be without it.
Now that looks like a handy piece of kit!
Cheers!
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The "canned air" I use is not air but difluoroethane; the trade name is Dust-Off, and it's called a compressed gas duster. It is a refrigerant - which pretty well means it is not combustible - and it's certainly not benzene which is a carcinogen and flammable.
According to their website (which I checked on today), the difluoroethane IS the propellant, so it contains only one compound, thus shaking will have no effect. Several years ago I read on a photo forum that it had a propellant which "could" contaminate the sensor (and I believed it). No more worries about that one.
So it would seem that the last remaining danger is in freezing the sensor. Incorrect - I must refrain from being a teenager and using it as an inhalant. Darn, I was so looking forward to getting high on it. ;)
Happy blowing,
Glenn
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+1
"Dust off" is also my first line of attract of crap on the sensor.
BUT, do not attempt while driving, under alcohol, etc.
Do this with lots of caution!
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+1
"Dust off" is also my first line of attract of crap on the sensor.
BUT, do not attempt while driving, under alcohol, etc.
Do this with lots of caution!
Just finished cleaning sensors on both bodies with Dust-Off, one needed a wet cleaning as the spots were round and looked as though they were "glued" on (this is the older 30D body with no sensor cleaning mechanism).
In an attempt to address the issue of the possibility of "freezing" or otherwise damaging the sensor, I tried longer blasts of perhaps one to two seconds long immediately after using several much shorter blasts to clean a sensor.
I then immediately directed the blast at my face. I was surprised at the temperature - while the top of the can became quite cool, the gas coming out was not cold - perhaps cool, but certainly no where near the temp where it could harm anything. Even blasting continuously for several seconds did not cause the gas to become cold.
I'm convinced that the fear of freezing or damaging the sensor or any part of the camera is completely baseless. And there are no new spots from the refrigerant gas.
I'm seriously wondering if the conventional wisdom wasn't based on someone's hypothesis and it gained an internet life of its own when no one questioned it. On the face of it (cold temperatures, propellant contamination) seem somewhat logical - but then so did Aristotle's theories for two thousand years.
Urban Legend?
Glenn
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Just finished cleaning sensors on both bodies with Dust-Off, one needed a wet cleaning as the spots were round and looked as though they were "glued" on (this is the older 30D body with no sensor cleaning mechanism).
In an attempt to address the issue of the possibility of "freezing" or otherwise damaging the sensor, I tried longer blasts of perhaps one to two seconds long immediately after using several much shorter blasts to clean a sensor.
I then immediately directed the blast at my face. I was surprised at the temperature - while the top of the can became quite cool, the gas coming out was not cold - perhaps cool, but certainly no where near the temp where it could harm anything. Even blasting continuously for several seconds did not cause the gas to become cold.
I'm convinced that the fear of freezing or damaging the sensor or any part of the camera is completely baseless. And there are no new spots from the refrigerant gas.
I'd hold the trigger longer, but don't want to waste any more of the gas.
Glenn
I used an 'air duster' on the D3 yesterday and it seems to have done the trick. Short shots in and around the body from 4 - 6 inches away was how I did it and I can't see any dust at all from some shots I took of the sky afterwards.
The latest refrigerants brought in to replace the old ozone killers were no way near as effective as the CFC's which is why they required larger refrigeration circuits. Gas in some chillers could be swapped over but they would run for longer while freezers needed a whole new compressor unit if I remember correctly from my days in the refrigeration business. This may account for the propellents now being used not having the the chilling effect of older butane filled cans. Mr Boyle et al would know!
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I used an 'air duster' on the D3 yesterday and it seems to have done the trick. Short shots in and around the body from 4 - 6 inches away was how I did it and I can't see any dust at all from some shots I took of the sky afterwards.
I hold the end of the plastic tube (which attaches to the nozzle of the can) about 5 mm (1/4 inch) away from the sensor and keep moving it around. Always have done this.
Oddly enough, sometimes after a few shots and a check at f/16 or so, I actually see new dust particles. Dust particles look just like dust or threads. Spots don't usually come off though as they seem to be of a totally different nature (almost like some drops of liquid spilled on the surface). For that I use a liquid cleaner and a swab. Note that the spots are on the sensor surface before I start any cleaning - the first step is to take a shot and examine the nature and location of any spots/particles/dust. Wet cleaning is always the last step and the last resort.
One reason I use the Dust-Off first is to ensure that I've blown any potential loose particle off the sensor surface and out of the mirror box to ensure nothing gritty is on the sensor surface when I wet clean.
Interesting information about the refrigerants and their lower capacity for cooling.
Glenn
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I hold the end of the plastic tube (which attaches to the nozzle of the can) about 5 mm (1/4 inch) away from the sensor and keep moving it around. Always have done this.
Oddly enough, sometimes after a few shots and a check at f/16 or so, I actually see new dust particles. Dust particles look just like dust or threads. Spots don't usually come off though as they seem to be of a totally different nature (almost like some drops of liquid spilled on the surface). For that I use a liquid cleaner and a swab. Note that the spots are on the sensor surface before I start any cleaning - the first step is to take a shot and examine the nature and location of any spots/particles/dust. Wet cleaning is always the last step and the last resort.
One reason I use the Dust-Off first is to ensure that I've blown any potential loose particle off the sensor surface and out of the mirror box to ensure nothing gritty is on the sensor surface when I wet clean.
Interesting information about the refrigerants and their lower capacity for cooling.
Glenn
Would you believe that the tube supplied with the can was too big to fit into the head! Still, going gently at it seemed to work and I have an event to cover today so we shall see for sure when I get the images back home and up on the screen.
On the refrigerant side I can remember there being all sorts of commotion when the new gasses came in and as a company making display cabinets we had to beef up the systems to cope. THe holy grail of the chemical companies were replacement gasses that could be swapped over without any changes to the machinery but that never happened. However, this was about the time our youngest was born and she is twenty today. Ouch, that hurts!!
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Voila! Couldn't find a speck of dust on it.
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FWIW, I used a manual bulb blower, which does some good, but find two or three clean, dry cotton swabs followed by the bulb blower takes care of the rest (2 or 3 swabs because I give only a once over with each). I'm also careful to clean the whole mirror chamber, lens mount and rear elements of lenses so as not to simply move dust around.
BTW, I'm curious about where the dust goes when propelled gas is used (into other areas of the chamber?). When I clean the sensor, I keep the camera on a tripod pointed downwards so that gravity can help. Doing this with propelled gas would mean tilting the can upwards which could mean propellant coming out. Anyway, that's why I've avoided using compressed gas.
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I keep the camera on a tripod pointed downwards so that gravity can help. Doing this with propelled gas would mean tilting the can upwards which could mean propellant coming out. Anyway, that's why I've avoided using compressed gas.
There is no propellant in Dust-Off - it's all refrigerant and it goes into the air. And it's not a CFC (ozone destroyer).
This is one of those internet urban legends - like "use a Swiffer and if your dog licks the floor it will die".
Glenn
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we read everywhere about using puffer brushes just doesn't work,
As I said puffer brushes are hopeless, but hurricane bulb blowers DO work well. The important difference is the absence of any brush that brings in new contaminants.
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BTW, I'm curious about where the dust goes when propelled gas is used (into other areas of the chamber?).
My apologies for missing this question. The clean gas blows in very closely to the sensor, and dust particles go out with it into the surrounding air.
As I noted in a previous post, there are instances when the first blow and check reveals a new thread-like dust particle on the sensor. When this happens, I blow and check again (repeat as necessary).
The primary reason I blow is to ensure that any particulate matter that could potentially be gritty and scratch the sensor surface during wet cleaning, is blown out before I do a wet clean.
I suppose I am anal about this but I wet cleaned the sensor on my 30D when it was quite new without blowing. I scratched the sensor surface (filter), and had to have it replaced. The only explanation I could think of is that some hard tiny bit of grit was on the surface and the wet cleaning dragged it across the surface causing the scratch.
Glenn
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Maybe it's comparing apples with ponies here, but back in the day, I worked in the clean room of a print lab and we used compressed air for cleaning negs, filmstrips, slides, etc. We adapted a low pressure desktop airbrush compressor with micro-fine air filters on both the intake and output sides. We definitely would not use canned "air" in any form. At that time, they all seemed to use some form of freon as a propellant, the slightest drop of which could totally destroy a piece of film; turn the can upside-down and you could freeze the entire room :)
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A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. Max Planck
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Some years ago I cleaned my FM2n using canned air. From that instant on the micro switch which shuts down the metering when you park the film advance lever stopped working; fortunately it still times out.
And that was an FM2n...
Roy