Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => User Critiques => Topic started by: Jonathan Wienke on September 21, 2005, 10:08:22 am
-
I shot this at a recent car show, a US Marine looking for the name of a relative on the side of a 1955 Chevy Bel Air with a POW-MIA themed paint job.
(http://www.visual-vacations.com/images/POW-MIA.jpg)
I'm interested in your impressions of the mood and/or meaning of this image, as well as the usual composition & technical nitpicking.
-
I think it is a very fine photograph and the use of B&W is very appropriate to the mood. I very much like how you framed the shot and the way the reflection of the Marine is centered in the list of names. The tonal range on the car is great. I think I might like to see what it would look like with a little burning in on the Marine (but you may have already tried that).
I'm glad you explained what we are looking at, because the side of an automobile is not the first thing that comes to mind with a list of POWs. The one distracting element in the photo for me is the trim piece that enters the photo from the right--even knowing what it is, I keep seeing it as a sword. Nonetheless, great shot.
Slightly off topic--my eye was caught by the first name on the list, John T. Downey in 1952. John Downey and I were law school classmates in the 70s. He had been a CIA agent and was shot down over China in 1952. He was held prisoner until 1973 when he was released with the gradual thawing of relations with China. After he returned to the U.S., he attended law school and I think went on to become a judge.
-
To me, the combination of things in the image suggests "war memorial" very well. Clearly, the list of names is a memorial of some sort (though it's hard to tell exactly what that structure is), and the man in uniform suggests that the memorial is military in nature. (I also like the way that the man's arm is slightly out of focus and you can't see his face, which together suggest that the names are the main point of the image, not the man; the man is just a clue as to the image's nature and perhaps a stand-in for the viewer.) The mood is that of a solemn memorial. The B&W treatment seems right, as it adds to the solemnity and historical-feeling nature of the scene (assuming that's what you're trying to do).
I like the tonalities of it very much; you've got just the right contrast, brightness, etc. My only nit-pick would be that the man's shoulder is very bright, which tends to draw the eye to it, which I don't think you want. You might darken that area a little.
Lisa
-
Couldn't improve on the composition/framing. I suspect this shot was probably a compromise between retaining the shadow detail in the reflection and trying to minimize the highlight blow-out on the shoulder.
-
The barbed wire on the plaque is a subtle clue to POW.
-
I suspect this shot was probably a compromise between retaining the shadow detail in the reflection and trying to minimize the highlight blow-out on the shoulder.
Exactly. The car itself was under an awning in the shade and the Marine's shoulder was in the direct sun, so the dynamic range in the scene was stretching the limits of the camera. I think I'll play with that a bit more; the hard part is to darken it down without accentuating the fact that there is some clipping there. I did use some fill flash; perhaps I should have used a bit more and allowed less ambient exposure. I agree that the shoulder is the biggest technical flaw of the image.
And yes, "solemn memorial" was exactly the mood/meaning I was trying for.
Just for grins & giggles, here's the original uncropped frame:
(http://galleries.visual-vacations.com/2005/08-20/muscle/images/2005-08-20_0079.jpg)
Can you say "background clutter"? :cool:
And see if you can figure out how I got the crop.
-
I very much like this image, although it took a moment to figure out what I was looking at. The B&W and classic car both give it a timeless quality, and without knowing that you took this recently it would be hard to know if this was shot today or 20 years ago.
Later: just saw Jonathan's uncropped version. I guess the "dot com" on the background tent is a clue it's a contemporary capture
Paul
-
I guess the "dot com" on the background tent is a clue it's a contemporary capture
That, and the pixellated camo pattern of the Marine's uniform, which is a new uniform type still being phased in. But that's a little less obvious.
-
Jonathan, I was looking at the Marine's reflection in the color version. Did you happen to take a closeup of just a few of the names that emphasized the reflection? I'm thinking about the "1965" area. It would have removed all clues of context but might have been an interesting complement to the first image.
Paul
-
I see what you're talking about and agree that there's image potential there, but I didn't happen to shoot any closeups of that particular composition.
-
Jonathan,
This is a very powerful image. I am struck first by a sense of great intensity on the part of the marine as he examines the list of names -- even though his face can't be seen. Then, the chrome trim strip suggests a sword, piercing the black list of names and aimed directly at the marine's heart. It also reminds me of one of Minor White's photos of a street worker in a hole in pavement with a painted arrow pointing at him. The arrow, and your "sword", are both very striking and unsettling. The mood to me is very ominous and tragic.
The composition is unusual, with the "sword" splitting the image almost in half, but for me it works just as it is. I have no nits to pick. Thanks for sharing it.
Eric
-
A very moving and powerful image Jonathan. The symbolism is strong yet not cliche`d. I sense a feeling of reverence, pensiveness and reflection. The distracting highlighted area on the marine's shoulder becomes extremely minor for me, due to the impact of the image as a whole.
I love the clarity in the fingers which invites human touch.
The image poses questions in my mind - How does one see oneself in times of war? Is one's life reflected back to oneself at the time of death?
A memorable image of the collective - yet faceless nature of war.
Julie
-
Someone mentioned that the human brain is a problem (?) in photogrpahy becasue of the baggage it carries (smell, sound, other memories). Combing some comments here with other comments, I noticed that some of the commentors seemed to be influenced by their own baggage or brains (that I doubt the photogrpaher was aware of) that evoked some positive (and perhaps but unexpressed, negative) emotions.
The point? I don't know, I just noticed.
-
howard smith Posted on Sep. 22 2005,06:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone mentioned that the human brain is a problem (?) in photogrpahy becasue of the baggage it carries (smell, sound, other memories). Combing some comments here with other comments, I noticed that some of the commentors seemed to be influenced by their own baggage or brains (that I doubt the photogrpaher was aware of) that evoked some positive (and perhaps but unexpressed, negative) emotions.
The point? I don't know, I just noticed.
Howard, unless one is enlightened, I think we are all influenced by our own "baggage or brains". That is what the human response is all about. I think that it would be difficult not to be influenced by our own "baggage or brains" when asked to comment on "your impressions of the mood and/or meaning of this image, as well as the usual composition & technical nitpicking."
I'm not sure that the brain is a problem (?) at all. We are who we are, and the way we respond to images is because of our history and beliefs. Expressing this in a civil manner can only create opportunities for further dialogue on issues, and create greater understanding all around. An image does something to us when we see it. If it does a lot...it may be discussed, remembered or purchased. I don't think many images are remembered or purchased purely as a result of an intellectual exercise regarding exposure or composition etc. Those elements may be examined afterwards to try to understand more about how the image affects us, but I think our emotional response is the crux of what photography is about.
Julie
-
"I don't think many images are remembered or purchased purely as a result of an intellectual exercise regarding exposure or composition etc." Maybe not many, but a lot of the one's I own. Oak Tree in a Snow Storm by Adams is one I own just because it is nice, ggod ecposure, good composition, etc. I have never wondered what the tree was feeling standing out there in the snow.
The comment I made was with respect to the brain being a problem. I think the brain is a good thing, smarter than any Canon. Maybe not as exercised, but smarter - capable of using far more powerful programs.
"Howard, unless one is enlightened, I think we are all influenced by our own 'baggage or brains'." I ahve spent most of my adult life in science, attempting to rid my brain of baggage - how I want something to be instead of what it is. I never thought of that as enlightened. You probably don't either.
-
Jonathan,
As a pure image it works for me. Could be the cover of Legion Magazine. Having seen the Viet Nam war memorial in DC many times, the honor list motif is clearly recognizable as a war memorial. The desert camouflage fatigues give it a generational message. No desert fatigues in Viet Nam or Korea. For me that’s the power of the image. Youth looking back over time asking, what’s changed?
Were I not of that generation I’d have trouble guessing it’s the side of a ’55 Chevy. The chrome spear is a giveaway, but the rivets give it a war plane look in the tight crop.
I think it’s great catch as an image. Politically, I think an honor list on the side of a car is poor taste.
-
The comment I made was with respect to the brain being a problem. I think the brain is a good thing, smarter than any Canon. Maybe not as exercised, but smarter - capable of using far more powerful programs.
.. understand you now.
With regard to your other comments Howard, I think we could go round and round the "oak" tree on that one because of the restrictive nature of cyber-conversations. -Such an interesting topic deserves a more personal communitcation and conversation. ...one day perhaps
Julie
-
jule, I would be glad to discuss this with you. I don't have any real incites, agendas, or answers, but those are the good discussions. And I agree about a private talk, the LL is too PC do get down and dirty and be truley honest on.
-
Jonathan, just out of interest, what is the figure in the reflection on the silver bit above the honour lists - to clarify -(just above the 'o&n' of Visual Vacations' on the original)?
Julie
-
Howard, ....will do
Julie
-
Hi Howard, I don't have any answers either but would love to discuss this further with you, but I find email communication very frustrating at times. Nothing can beat a good old debate face to face, but I think that geographical localities may be a limiting factor. I find email can sometimes create more misunderstanding than understanding. I don't mind saying anything which may not be PC on the LL forum and I will always be honest, I just find that delayed responses and typing just creates problems for me when getting into the nitty gritty of an issue. I prefer a good old chat! Perhaps a telephone conversation some time may be fun!
Julie
-
Jonathan, just out of interest, what is the figure in the reflection on the silver bit above the honour lists - to clarify -(just above the 'o&n' of Visual Vacations' on the original)?
It's simply a reflection of the Marine's hat in the shiny vertical surface of the fin.
Were I not of that generation I’d have trouble guessing it’s the side of a ’55 Chevy. The chrome spear is a giveaway, but the rivets give it a war plane look in the tight crop.
The car has been modified to be a drag racer, and the vertical fins on the back were added to provide the mount for the braking parachute. But given the hundreds of man-hours that went into the paint job, the vehicle doesn't do much actual racing, it mostly does the car show circuit. The owners are Vietnam-era veterans; here's one of them making the acceptance speech for the "best of show" award the car received:
(http://galleries.visual-vacations.com/2005/08-20/muscle/images/2005-08-21_0270.jpg)
You can see the rest of the shots of this car here (http://galleries.visual-vacations.com/2005/08-20/muscle/index.htm); they're on pages one, three, and four of the gallery.
-
Someone mentioned that the human brain is a problem (?) in photogrpahy becasue of the baggage it carries (smell, sound, other memories). Combing some comments here with other comments, I noticed that some of the commentors seemed to be influenced by their own baggage or brains (that I doubt the photogrpaher was aware of) that evoked some positive (and perhaps but unexpressed, negative) emotions.
The point? I don't know, I just noticed.
Eveyone brings their own "baggage" to an image, an individually unique set of perceptions and assumptions regarding what the image means, whether or not it is "good" or "effective", and whether or not it is in good taste, etc. I'd even go so far as to say that a certain amount of "baggage" is necessary for an image to communicate on a level beyond dry, clinical historical documentation. In this instance, viewers having previously seen photos of the Vietnam memorial wall will more quickly cue in on the "war memorial" concept than those who have not.
But it is certainly possible for "baggage" to lead one to draw erroneous conclusions about the intent of an image. For example, imagine a close-up of the face of a Caucasian male with a shaved head and a snarly expression. Some people's "baggage" might lead them to assume the photo is of a white supremacist delivering a racial diatribe, while others might think of a cancer patient fighting through chemotherapy to compete in a marathon.
Part of the point of the critique process is to help the photographer determine the degree of correlation between his/her own "baggage" regarding the image and the "baggage" of those doing the critique (in this case, denizens of the LL forums), and discover if the message the viewer received from the image is the same as the message the photographer intended to communicate.
-
Why is it that I am expecting the marine to be clutching a smoldering Marlboro between his fingers? I am feeling something here.
You know, in music, the power every quality composer and performer commands is the ability to evoke emotion in the audience. They don't get to specify the emotion, but they command a response. The better they are, the more helpless the audience is to resist a response.
Could the same go for visual art?
You forced a response in me - I want a cigarette. I quit smoking 20 years ago.
Effective work, Jon.
-
You forced a response in me - I want a cigarette. I quit smoking 20 years ago.
And here we have a perfect example of a response that has nothing to do with the photographer's original intent. :cool:
Effective work, Jon.
Thank you, Bob, and thanks to everyone else who commented.
-
I suspect that the crop was preceeded by squeezing down the left side in photoshop using one of the transform functions. I noticed that the angle with respect to horizontal of the top of the black area has changed between the two images.
Don
-
You can see the rest of the shots of this car here (http://galleries.visual-vacations.com/2005/08-20/muscle/index.htm); they're on pages one, three, and four of the gallery.
As an aside, I find the gallery thumbnails fascinating. They tell a lot about how a serious pro like Jonathan covers an event like this. Note the care with which every shot is framed, and note the subtle differences when there are several in a row that are of the same subject.
Thanks for posting these, Jonathan. It is a real education seeing how you work (but I bet a "proofsheet" of your landscape work would be quite different in number of repetitions, but not in the evident care taken with each shot).
Eric
-
I suspect that the crop was preceeded by squeezing down the left side in photoshop using one of the transform functions. I noticed that the angle with respect to horizontal of the top of the black area has changed between the two images.
Actually, I used the Lens Correction filter to rotate the image slightly, apply a horizontal perspective adjustment, and add a little bit of barrel distortion, then cropped. The highlighted area approximately represents the final crop:
(http://galleries.visual-vacations.com/images/2005-08-20_0079.jpg)
The perspective shift and the barrel distortion (especially the barrel distortion) made it possible to get rid of more of the background clutter at the top, which I really disliked but couldn't avoid entirely while composing.
-
I've implemented some of the suggestions and burned in the shoulder, dodged some of the fill flash shadows to make them less prominent, and added a sepia tone:
(http://galleries.visual-vacations.com/images/2005-08-20_0079-S.jpg)
-
The strength of this image is probably in the idea that a marine who is obviously not from the vietnam era, looks at a memorial that obviously is. So it easily makes one think of the consequence that he might be looking for names of relatives. Of course, he could also just be looking at the extraordinary paint job. So that would be a slight minus: there is no emotion visible. He is not pointing at the names, intensely reading them oss.
What also struck me is that the original crop does not reveal any hints on the nature of the memorial. This makes the memorial look weird. It is on the side of a car, but that doesn't show. The original uncropped image reveals part of a wheel in typical dragster style, which immediately makes it all clear. It hints at the context and does so splendidly. So I would definitely add that extra bit.
Lastly I don't understand the background clutter crop. Background clutter is not an argument to crop, composition is. If you need to obscure background clutter, the photographer has a tool at his/her disposal which is specific to photography: namely background blur. And in this case, given that the background is more than several yards away, there is simply no excuse not using it. Sure in the spur of the moment one may have missed it, but that probably means a missed opportunity. The composition does look more balanced imo with the wheel included, and the shape of the tail visible...
(In that regard I also do not like the slight unsharpness in the elbow, while the unwanted background is tacksharp. It should have been the other way around, which adds to the intimacy of the scene... )
The image does look better in B&W. The image screams B&W. It helps tamper the distracting elements. I do not think it needs sepia. For illustrative purposes:
(http://www.theimagingfactory.com/examples/20050820_0079_1.jpg)
-
jonathan i am not sure how important the fact that this memorial was on a car was to you, but if it was, i would have shown a bit more of the wheel on the bottom left, maybe with some chrome. it would have added to the symbolism, in the sense "no matter what we keep on rolling". and to me the elbow is either too large or out of place, it doesnt bring me closer to the picture, it actually almost pushes me out.
i think as a theme this picture is quite evocative, and to the right person it can offer a powerful message of remembrance and/or thanks and/or solace.
amnon
p.s....sorry, i didnt read the previous post, i seem to have repeated what that person said.
-
I've been giving the "crop looser so you can tell it's a car" idea some thought, and I'm a bit conflicted about it. I kind of like the ambiguity of the original version; there's enough clues that one can figure out that it's a car, but it's not smack-you-in-the-face obvious. The trim/sword ambiguity is definitely more effective in the original version. And the focus of the image is more centered on the names than what the names are attached to, which is not necessarily a bad thing, either.
I'm going to play with it some more and see what I come up with.
-
Jonathan, I think one of the reasons I'm struck by the Image is that the unnatural nature of the memorial confuses what you expect to see. The fact that you can't tell it's a car immediately adds to the sense of importance of the soldier searching for a mention of a family name in somewhere other than the memorials we're all familiar with, and conveys the notion that loved ones lost in war shouldn't be forgotten. Sometimes we need the unusual to remind us of that.
Then, when you do realise it's a car, the sense of importance is heightened as you realise that someone went to the trouble of decorating a car in such a way.
The photograph's power comes to me in the way that you've captured these sentiments with an artist's eye, something I think your crop helps immensely. It's a fantastic shot.
-
I've been thinking about it all day, and here's what I've come up with:
It's all about the purpose of the photograph. If the focus of the image is on the car, and the purpose is to showcase the car, then the looser crop demonstrated by opgr is totally appropriate and desirable. But if the focus of the image is the names on the car rather than the car per se, then the original version is more appropriate and effective. If the car owner wants a publicity shot to advertise the car, then the looser crop is definitely the most appropriate choice. But as a general tribute to those who have served under some of the most adverse conditions imaginable, the first version is more effective, in part because the image is stripped down to its bare essentials; the names and the Marine reading them. The "story" being told is that of a warrior from one generation considering the sacrifices and hardships of warriors of a previous generation; the fact that the names are painted on the side of a car instead of carved in in a black stone slab is an interesting side note perhaps, but not the fundamentally relevant point. And the ambiguity of the swordlike chrome trim plays into the theme; in the looser crop, the trim loses the dramatic impact of its "swordness" and becomes a mere decoration.
As such, I've decided to stay with the original rendering, but burn in the shoulder to make it less distracting, increase the blurring of the extraneous background stuff, and leave it straight black and white rather than sepia. If the car owner wants to use the image to promote the car, he'll get the more loosely cropped version proposed by opgr.
My thanks to everyone who participated in this thread.
(http://www.visual-vacations.com/images/2005-08-20_0079.jpg)
-
The final image is better. It is said that music has no specific meaning. It just appeals directly to the emotions and creates a mood.
Many landscape photos (and paintings) are similar. We have a compositional arrangement, a play of light and shade, a harmony of colours, which are pleasing. But often the sum total is no more than decoration, but sometimes it's also dramatic and powerful, but in a non-specific way.
Jonathan's image is not a landscape but a 'human interest' theme. In 'opgr's' terms, there a narrative there that's almost specific. There's a clue there as to the nature of the list (as Howard mentioned). The fragments of barbed wire indicate the list of names refers to POWs who may or may not still be alive.
The strength of the image lies in the associations it provokes in the viewer. In this instance, a soldier viewing a list of comrades missing and possibly dead. No-one cannot be emotionally affected by this. A soldier's lot, in times of conflict, can be like a game of Russian Roulette. Even when the conflict has ended, the emotional scars may last forever. Reality is so different from the John Wayne macho style war movies designed to instill patriotism.
There's real human suffering amongst soldiers, and any shot of a soldier looking at any list of POWs or 'Died in Action' is going to be replete with iconism, sadness and a whole spectrum of emotions.
-
Jonathan,
You nailed it. I agree completely with your choices about the final image.
Eric
-
Jonathan, I think the technical treatment of the latest version is best - the burning in of the highlights reduces what I found to be a bit too much contrast and harshness in the earlier version. I didn't comment on it before because it is one of these images one needs time to think about - in particular the message and how it is delivered. Good works of art leave the message to the beholder, which means different people will see different things in it. This photograph meets that standard. One of the most important visual elements in this photogaph is the crome bar reaching accross the door panel to the soldier. What I see in this picture is a soldier pondering the fact that aggression leads to death. Powerful message, well delivered.