Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JV on June 11, 2014, 07:58:43 pm

Title: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: JV on June 11, 2014, 07:58:43 pm
At times I am very very tempted by the Leica S… but then I read stuff like this:
http://leicarumors.com/2014/06/11/another-leica-lens-price-increase-coming-on-july-1st.aspx/

and I wonder what these guys in the Leitz Park are smoking…

The 30-90mm zoom went from $10,900 to $11,400 in January and now 6 months later from $11,400 to $11,750…

Hopefully this will be compensated by a decrease in price of the body with the rumored upcoming CMOS Leica S.

Not crossing my fingers though...
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: paulmoorestudio on June 11, 2014, 09:13:50 pm
It is a funny wild world at the top...They are getting over 16 grand a piece for manual Summicron-c cine lenses.. the Summilux-c lenses are somewhere in the mid-twenties... so for a larger format, auto focus Zoom...even 12g's must seem a bargain in their world view.  Look, if I was getting just my rates from the 90's I would go for the whole system, but I am not... until then I will enjoy my vintage R lenses on a less than S2 body. I think Dr. K is great and has pumped vitality into the brand, they are aspirational and at the top of their game, setting the bar for others to follow. So what they are smoking is achievement and success...well done.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 12, 2014, 12:53:09 am
Those prices make the Zeiss Otus look like a total bargain... except that the Otus opens at f1.4 and probably performs as well as f1.4 as the 70mm at f2.5! ;)

The most puzzling one is indeed the 30-90mm f3.5-5.6 at the same price as the latest 400mm f2.8 from Nikon/Canon... I am hesitating between sad and hilarious.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 12, 2014, 04:52:20 am
Those prices make the Zeiss Otus look like a total bargain... except that the Otus opens at f1.4 and probably performs as well as f1.4 as the 70mm at f2.5! ;)

The most puzzling one is indeed the 30-90mm f3.5-5.6 at the same price as the latest 400mm f2.8 from Nikon/Canon... I am hesitating between sad and hilarious.

Cheers,
Bernard


Balloons go up, then they deflate.

We're now watching the ascent of the "super 50". The only bargain to be had here is probably the "Sony" AF Zeiss 50, which you can get for less than the price of the Otus ... with the camera body thrown in for free.

Who cares? Here is what a luxury point and shoot can do for you for about $1K:
http://www.sigma-global.com/common/cameras/dp-series/gallery/dp2/images/02.jpg

The color Moiré is very restrained, image looks plenty sharp.
Can a $25K S+lens really beat or even approach this in sharpness, and without becoming a Moiré textbook demo? I have my doubts.

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 12, 2014, 07:51:59 am
Who cares? Here is what a luxury point and shoot can do for you for about $1K:
http://www.sigma-global.com/common/cameras/dp-series/gallery/dp2/images/02.jpg

The color Moiré is very restrained, image looks plenty sharp.
Can a $25K S+lens really beat or even approach this in sharpness, and without becoming a Moiré textbook demo? I have my doubts.

Sharpness is of course not everything and superb images are typically resulting from great sharpness and great look combined (the Otus is king here).

But I share you views that it it unlikely the current Leica 22,000 US$ S with its best 9,000 US$ lens can do better than the Sigma quattro... with an Audi quattro thrown in for free.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 12, 2014, 02:14:19 pm
You might want to check what a Leica S can do when printed really large:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2014/06/the-leica-s-series-print-offer-jack-macdonough.html
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: JSNphotography on June 12, 2014, 02:17:11 pm
I find the different opinions/attitude on pricing on these forums amusing. In some threads you have people bashing Leica/Phase One/etc. about their perceived to be too high lens/camera/digital back pricing. Then in another thread you have people congratulating a photographer because he was paid a decent fee by a stock agency. Why not bash the individual for selling stock images at a higher fee? He surely could have sold the same image for a fraction of the cost on a competing stock site.

Everyone is in business to make money. If you don't want to pay the higher price for a product you don't need to. But that doesn't mean the company offering said product is doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: MrSmith on June 12, 2014, 02:54:05 pm
Leica owners do not care for such trivial price increases, they mean nothing to them.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Mike from Zekar on June 12, 2014, 03:04:35 pm
Man I love leica, but wow I can get a lot of gear for that price point. I could almost equip a second shooter with all they need for the price of a single lens! But man would I love to play with that lens for a few days. :)
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: bcooter on June 12, 2014, 03:22:00 pm
Man I love leica, but wow I can get a lot of gear for that price point. I could almost equip a second shooter with all they need for the price of a single lens! But man would I love to play with that lens for a few days. :)

Buying an S2 and Contax lenses with the adapter will come in at about the same price as the new pentax 645.  Not a bad deal considering the fine build quality of the leica and the Contax Zeiss lenses and since it shoots a dng will process in any software.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 12, 2014, 03:26:03 pm
There are days when I can not fall asleep for hours, tossing and turning until dawn. Those are the days when Lamborghinis and Bugattis of the world increase their prices by a whopping 3-4% (the same as Leica apparently did).
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: jerome_m on June 12, 2014, 04:17:43 pm
You might want to check what a Leica S can do when printed really large:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2014/06/the-leica-s-series-print-offer-jack-macdonough.html

Any digital MF camera can produce prints of that size that look sharp when watched with a magnifier.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Telecaster on June 12, 2014, 05:22:36 pm
How many times does the obvious need to be said? Leica is a small company that targets an affluent market. High prices are a deliberate (not to mention successful) strategy. Maybe a discussion of the economic forces involved in this would be both informative and useful. [I'm quite certain that displays of self-righteous indignation are neither.]

-Dave-

On further reflection the sentence above in brackets is over the top. I won't delete it as I did write & post it, but it certainly doesn't add anything informative or useful to the discussion.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 12, 2014, 05:46:54 pm
Any digital MF camera can produce prints of that size that look sharp when watched with a magnifier.

Are you saying that, say, Mamiya lenses deliver the same quality as Leica lenses?
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 12, 2014, 06:07:24 pm
J,

 Everything you say is true; besides which the Pentax is a good camera but not a fun camera. On the other hand the Pentax will probably do 6400 ISO and LV which the Leica cannot.

 For myself, I am starting to think all these cameras are obscenely expensive, and obscenely heavy.

Edmund

Buying an S2 and Contax lenses with the adapter will come in at about the same price as the new pentax 645.  Not a bad deal considering the fine build quality of the leica and the Contax Zeiss lenses and since it shoots a dng will process in any software.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: JV on June 12, 2014, 11:11:11 pm
How many times does the obvious need to be said? Leica is a small company that targets an affluent market. High prices are a deliberate (not to mention successful) strategy. Maybe a discussion of the economic forces involved in this would be both informative and useful. I'm quite certain that displays of self-righteous indignation are neither.

-Dave-

Dave,

Not so much self-righteous indignation but I don't understand what Leica is trying to do.

There was another price increase last year in May which also affected the 30-90mm zoom.  At that time it went from $9,950 to $10,900.

So in slightly over a year the lens went from $9,950 to $11,750, that is an increase of $1,800…

Either the lens was incorrectly priced from the beginning which I doubt, or Leica is just greedy, or they are not doing so well as everybody assumes and need the money desperately… Not sure.

Either way as a potential Leica S customer I am looking at this and thinking what the heck, not quite sure what to make of it…

Thanks, Joris.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Telecaster on June 12, 2014, 11:32:01 pm
So in slightly over a year the lens went from $9,950 to $11,750, that is an increase of $1,800…

Maybe Leica is just trying to jumpstart sales.   :)

Note that I'm only half joking.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: sgilbert on June 13, 2014, 12:51:10 am
Maybe Leica demand is outstripping supply, so they're raising prices. 

That's the way the market theoretically works. 

The problem with being a fan of a company is that they don't necessarily reciprocate your affection.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: jerome_m on June 13, 2014, 01:09:48 am
Quote
Any digital MF camera can produce prints of that size that look sharp when watched with a magnifier.
Are you saying that, say, Mamiya lenses deliver the same quality as Leica lenses?

I am saying that they can produce the same level of sharpness on a 24x36" (61cm x 91cm or A1) print, which is the size on offer. First, this kind of image is a test of sharpness and only sharpness (and there are more qualities to a lens than sharpness), second this is a landscape picture so one can stop down a bit and third the print is not that big.

I am not criticising the lens, I am criticising presenting that picture as a valid test.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Chris Livsey on June 13, 2014, 02:41:55 am
The problem with being a fan of a company is that they don't necessarily reciprocate your affection.

It seems to me that for a number of "leaders of opinion", "bloggers we love" they do reciprocate affection shown, its just the rest of us picking up the tab that feel the pain.
That pain though is mitigated when I see my venerable M8 bought in 2007 for £2500, new, still brings almost half that S/H whereas the H3DII 22 listed at £14,687.50 in 2008 can be picked up for around £2,000 now. (Actually I've seen a II version for that price with 9,000 clicks) What happened to "protecting the investment" ?

Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: bcooter on June 13, 2014, 05:27:39 am
For commerce, you buy cameras for use, not for perceived resale value.  

Nothing today sells for what it's original price was, but I'm not a camera trader, I'm a user.

These forums bring out the fan boys (For some reason, usually Nikon owners) that questions everyone's sanity in buying a higher end piece of equipment, but rarely talk about the photographs they produce.

For me, the S2 fit the bill.  In controlled conditions it doesn't shoot  a better file than my ancient p30+ and Contax, in real world, pressued production it's twice the camera of my Contax due to it's form factor.

It allows me to use a "film"  I like, a ccd based camera in a style that is actually smaller than my 1dx, while allowing my contax lenses go come out of the case and work as intended.

No other company does that, so I'm pleased and if the body dropped to 1/10th the price, it would make no difference to me.

I feel the same about my RED1s.   They continue to make us money, allow us to shoot as well or better than any equipment currently made and the resale value isn't important.

The only cameras that bug me are the tweeners, like the Sony FS100.  That cost something like 4 grand, was marginal at the time and today will sell for about a grand if I'm lucky.

Still, this forum goes crazy if anyone buys anything they perceive to be excessive, but I can promise you, in the long term my S2 will work at as one of the least expensive cameras I own.

Plus there is always the intangible factor of I like it.

But if it's just megapixels and price ratios that turn you on, the new Pentax isn't the deal, a Nikon D800 is, because by allow accounts everyone says the files look virtually identical.  (I've used neither so that is just what I'm told).

Personally, the only still camera equipment I'd buy today is an Aptus 22 for my Contax, because it produced a unique look I've yet to be able to duplicate with my other cameras.  I wonder what that sells for today?

Regardless of price, an Aptus 22 with the right lens and setting is still viable.

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/wonderland%20_book/correc%20tRR_211.jpg)


IMO

BC
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 13, 2014, 06:24:44 am
Leica have a long history of building cameras used by pros and amateurs, but they seem to have fairly recently learnt luxury marketing from their erstwhile part-owner Hermés.

And so they have their own stores, color schemes, bespoke furniture, parties, camera donations to the rich and famous, superblogger fans with special access, collector editions. Everyone who is known to use a Leica is a VIP except for the "real" buyers who buy from a "real" dealer with "real" money.

Think of your favorite fashion brand - they too hold parties to launch products, host charity events, their products are  visibly displayed by those whose business it is to be famous. It has little to do with what the product does. It's a smart marketing technique aimed at those who want to belong.

Oh and by the way, luxury products can never be purchased by Joe Buyer at launch, there are waiting lists, and  THE MEDIAN PRICE GOES UP EVERY YEAR. The brand must appear to be more exclusive every year.

I'm so sorry for any of you who actually paid for "put your luxury name here". If you paid it means you're not really rich and famous.

Edmund

 
It seems to me that for a number of "leaders of opinion", "bloggers we love" they do reciprocate affection shown, its just the rest of us picking up the tab that feel the pain.
That pain though is mitigated when I see my venerable M8 bought in 2007 for £2500, new, still brings almost half that S/H whereas the H3DII 22 listed at £14,687.50 in 2008 can be picked up for around £2,000 now. (Actually I've seen a II version for that price with 9,000 clicks) What happened to "protecting the investment" ?


Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Ken R on June 13, 2014, 09:05:49 am
Just like nobody likes more taxes, no photographer likes price increases on their favorite gear. It just plain suxs.

It's a good thing that Leica is not the only manufacturer of camera gear then. It's great to have choices and now we photographers have more than ever in the history of digital photography.

Regarding Leica's business practices / model one could go on forever discussing those. I don't think anyone will argue that New Leica gear are high value items. None are. But, a lot of the Leica gear do offer something different. I mean, it's not like they are selling a Sony A99 covered in different materials at an astronomical price.  :P
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Steve Hendrix on June 13, 2014, 09:20:00 am
I'll just say that lenses from nearly every manufacturer go up almost every year, at least for a while. If you check a Canon lens from 3 years ago, it's gone up 10% - 20% in general. It's always been the case, at least in recent times.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: BobDavid on June 13, 2014, 09:24:44 am
My best work to date is coming out of an EM1, an EPL-5, and a set of Oly fast primes. I love the look of the files and it's great to shoot without bulky gear and to be able to handhold a camera, take a shot at 1/3 sec with a 25mm, 17mm, 12mm (50, 34, 24 35FF equiv lenses) without worrying about camera shake. I've been making tasty 15 X 20 and 18 X 24 prints with the Oly files. I like the look of the higher ISO noise and anything shot below ISO 800 looks pretty damn smooth. I've been around the block with everything from an 8" X 10" view camera to a CF39-MS/H2f kit to a Nikon d800. The Nikon is nice, and I will continue using it. But the Oly inspires me to shoot everyday--whether for fun or for commerce. Granted, I've lost interest in wanting to see every blade of grass or every leaf on a tree. And I am no longer taking in commercial projects where the final image is plastered onto billboards. As for the sheer joy of taking pictures and making art prints, I am having more fun with the Olys than I've ever had with any camera. The files are robust, the lenses are well-corrected--exhibiting fine micro contrast. They paint pretty bokeh. The fact they are light and relatively inexpensive is a big bonus. I know comparing an Oly to a Leica S is sort of silly, but if you are not wealthy or not producing fussy commercial work, consider going to a smaller format rather than a larger one.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 13, 2014, 09:33:44 am
These forums bring out the fan boys (For some reason, usually Nikon owners) that questions everyone's sanity in buying a higher end piece of equipment, but rarely talk about the photographs they produce.

Those saying here that Leica S prices are out of line are probably only claiming that in the context of their own needs, aren't they? At least that is the case for me.

I am not sure how that can be understood to mean that those buying Leica equipment may not have excellent reasons to do that in the context of their own needs?

As a side comment, I don't mind being called a Nikon fanboy (although there is a lot I am not happy about regarding Nikon's current state of affairs), but I don't think it is fair to write that I don't publish work ;) : https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/72157608924579177/

I won't bore you with 300 megapixel stitches... but, playing in your territory, I honnestly prefer the following images a thousand times over anything you have ever shown here... but I guess that the model being my daughter may have something to do with this. And yes, make up was done with a mix of rice and home made stew. :P

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7460/11750875164_9847630d44_o.jpg)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7300/12213063356_78998373f4_o.jpg)

The linked images were captured with amazing equipment from Nikon, Sony, Leica (2 of their best lenses ever, the 180mm f2.8 R APO and 280mm f4 R APO), Zeiss, Sigma, Canon, Mamiya, Ebony, Hasselblad,... you can call me a fanboy of these brands also.

It could clearly be better, but considering the amount of time I have left for photography these days, I think that the 6 feet prints are ok. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Chris Livsey on June 13, 2014, 10:58:10 am
For commerce, you buy cameras for use, not for perceived resale value.  

Nothing today sells for what it's original price was, but I'm not a camera trader, I'm a user.

Plus there is always the intangible factor of I like it.

BC

Not nitpicking at all BTW.
Ah you see not coming from commerce I can't claim back the sales tax on initial outlay (currently 20% in UK) nor can I write down the capital annually against profit. That does rather bias the outlook I agree. I'm not buying work tools I'm buying 'toys".

On the second point quoted, I'm afraid there are lots of cameras that sell for far more than the original price, Leica especially and not just the pure collectors editions or the black paint series  ;D

Absolutely agree on the intangible factor, what works or inspires you becomes cost effective.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Steve Hendrix on June 13, 2014, 11:27:00 am
Not nitpicking at all BTW.
Ah you see not coming from commerce I can't claim back the sales tax on initial outlay (currently 20% in UK) nor can I write down the capital annually against profit. That does rather bias the outlook I agree. I'm not buying work tools I'm buying 'toys".

On the second point quoted, I'm afraid there are lots of cameras that sell for far more than the original price, Leica especially and not just the pure collectors editions or the black paint series  ;D

Absolutely agree on the intangible factor, what works or inspires you becomes cost effective.


Not digital cameras.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 13, 2014, 11:51:18 am
... I am not sure how that can be understood to mean that those buying Leica equipment may not have excellent reasons to do that in the context of their own needs?...

Maybe because someone said this ;)

Quote
The most puzzling one is indeed the 30-90mm f3.5-5.6 at the same price as the latest 400mm f2.8 from Nikon/Canon... I am hesitating between sad and hilarious.

By the way, there are photographers who would pay $4-$5K for a standard (read: boring) lens that is vastly more expensive within its ecosystem than Leica lenses are within their own. ;)

Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Chris Livsey on June 13, 2014, 12:21:10 pm

Not digital cameras.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 13, 2014, 02:55:13 pm
I am saying that they can produce the same level of sharpness on a 24x36" (61cm x 91cm or A1) print... the print is not that big.

Perhaps, but I was not referring just to the print-offer size. That print typically prints at 40"x60" and sells for $17,500. The photographer obviously doesn't mind spending a small fortune on Leica body and lenses, when he can sell its prints for small fortunes as well. His largest-ever print is a full 2x3 yards (about 1.83x2.75 meters). In his own words: ""When you print large, you need and can justify very high resolution—and camera investments."

No doubt some other MF cameras and lenses could produce similar results. I was more reacting to comparisons with DSLR and even point & shoots someone mentioned in this thread.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: jerome_m on June 13, 2014, 03:59:50 pm
Perhaps, but I was not referring just to the print-offer size. That print typically prints at 40"x60"

I would believe that at size, the main problem with the S is not the lens but the lack of pixels. The Leica S is only 37 mpix and the 4x3 aspect ratio of the print further lowers the pixel count. My math says the final print is only 125 ppi.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 13, 2014, 04:34:08 pm
In his own words: ""When you print large, you need and can justify very high resolution—and camera investments."

I'll have to say this again, but I have made large prints from stitches done with a Nikon V2 that are better than anything I could ever get from Imacon scanned 4x5.

So for most landscape work, I agree that you need very high resolution, but I don't believe that spending Leica S kind of money is the only solution, or even the better one. Now, it may help this gentlemen market his work towards certain categories of buyers, but this is something different.

There are other applications where the Leaf lenses available in S format change the story completely.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 13, 2014, 05:25:55 pm
... the 4x3 aspect ratio of the print...

What 4x3 aspect ratio? 40x60?
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: satybhat on June 13, 2014, 11:45:55 pm
BCooter, what an amazing portrait that is.
Would you mind sharing the PP ?
Did you use the soft focus filter ?

Thanks
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Chris Livsey on June 14, 2014, 02:10:01 am
BCooter, what an amazing portrait that is.
Would you mind sharing the PP ?
Did you use the soft focus filter ?

Thanks

Interesting, consistently I only see the top 1/4 the rest is grey. In MacBookPro/Safari, all other shots fine.

Working now 14/6

Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: jerome_m on June 14, 2014, 02:56:51 am
What 4x3 aspect ratio? 40x60?

Yes, a 40" x 60" print has a 4x3 (or 3x4) aspect ratio, so the file from the Leica needs to be cropped left and right. Most MF cameras have a 4x3 sensor ratio and would not need that crop (but need more crop if one wants to shoot a panorama, for example).

Edit: what was I thinking when I wrote that? Of course, 40" x 60" is a 2x3 aspect ratio, just like the Leica S...
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 14, 2014, 03:27:24 am
Maybe lens prices are creeping up because with mirrorless cameras will soon just be boxes with no moving parts, all AF mechanisms, aperture and maybe central shutter in the lens?

If every MF cam is just a box with a Sony sensor, a screen on the back, and a shutter button, differentiation is going to be hard to achieve...

The camera will in effect become a "brand dongle" attached to the lens, exactly like the overexpensive branded batteries which have proprietary contacts so you have to use them on your device.

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: gerald.d on June 14, 2014, 04:03:38 am
Yes, a 40" x 60" print has a 4x3 (or 3x4) aspect ratio, so the file from the Leica needs to be cropped left and right. Most MF cameras have a 4x3 sensor ratio and would not need that crop (but need more crop if one wants to shoot a panorama, for example).

Err, no it doesn't. It has a 2x3 ratio.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: jerome_m on June 14, 2014, 04:08:25 am
I'll have to say this again, but I have made large prints from stitches done with a Nikon V2 that are better than anything I could ever get from Imacon scanned 4x5.

So for most landscape work, I agree that you need very high resolution, but I don't believe that spending Leica S kind of money is the only solution, or even the better one.

Exactly. MF users arguing over the superiority of their system on the basis of how many millions pixels it can produce is so much 2005, when the resolution race has been won by automated pano heads and stitching software capable of producing prints of several billions pixels.


There are other applications where the Leaf lenses available in S format change the story completely.

There are still plenty of applications where MF cameras are the better tool indeed. There are still plenty of applications where large, complicated and therefore expensive lenses are the only choice. I am not arguing with that.

Leaf shutters are a different story, since they are available on cameras which may surprise you. My Sony RX-1 has one for example (and it goes up to 1/4000s).
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: gerald.d on June 14, 2014, 04:18:37 am
Exactly. MF users arguing over the superiority of their system on the basis of how many millions pixels it can produce is so much 2005, when the resolution race has been won by automated pano heads and stitching software capable of producing prints of several billions pixels.

Here's the thing though.

Yes, you can generate billions of pixels by slapping a smaller format camera on a pano head and stitching. But you can of course also put MF cameras on pano heads too.

And you then have the distinct advantage that because of the wider field of view that you get from the same focal length lens, you need to shoot fewer images with the MF sensor than you do with a DSLR. Fewer images to stitch, shoot faster, less ghosting to deal with.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 14, 2014, 04:22:48 am
Here's the thing though.

Yes, you can generate billions of pixels by slapping a smaller format camera on a pano head and stitching. But you can of course also put MF cameras on pano heads too.

And you then have the distinct advantage that because of the wider field of view that you get from the same focal length lens, you need to shoot fewer images with the MF sensor than you do with a DSLR. Fewer images to stitch, shoot faster, less ghosting to deal with.



Except that your camera is much larger, heavier, and so you need a bigger "professional" pano motorized system that costs more money and moves much more slowly.

I think the Sigma compacts are probably the sweet spot for panos - you can use them with the cheapest motorized heads and the image quality ion a tripod is exemplary.

Ah, it's such hard work to become a pixel billionaire ...
Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: gerald.d on June 14, 2014, 04:29:27 am

Except that your camera is much larger, heavier, and so you need a bigger pano system that costs more money and moves much more slowly.

I think the Sigma compacts are probably the sweet spot for panos - you can use them with the cheapest motorized heads and the image quality ion a tripod s exemplary.

Edmund
The weight of the gear on a decent pano head makes no difference whatsoever to the speed at which you can shoot. And there really is no such thing as a "sweet spot" for panos. Depending on the specifics of the requirement, you'd want to have differing kit to utilise.

You need to take into account the context of the discussion - "the resolution race has been won by automated pano heads and stitching software capable of producing prints of several billions pixels". If you're up in the gigapixel range, you really do not want to be doing it with a Sigma compact.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 14, 2014, 04:41:42 am
The weight of the gear on a decent pano head makes no difference whatsoever to the speed at which you can shoot. And there really is no such thing as a "sweet spot" for panos. Depending on the specifics of the requirement, you'd want to have differing kit to utilise.

You need to take into account the context of the discussion - "the resolution race has been won by automated pano heads and stitching software capable of producing prints of several billions pixels". If you're up in the gigapixel range, you really do not want to be doing it with a Sigma compact.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

Maybe you can tell us which of the motorized pano systems can cope with an MF camera and a short tele?

Obviously the cheap Epic systems (http://gigapan.com/cms/shop/store) won't cut it, although they'd do ok with a small cam.

There is a list of heads available (http://wiki.panotools.org/Heads), but I think most motorized units won't cope with an MF system.

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: gerald.d on June 14, 2014, 04:57:52 am
Maybe you can tell us which of the motorized pano systems can cope with an MF camera and a short tele?

Obviously the cheap Epic systems (http://gigapan.com/cms/shop/store) won't cut it, although they'd do ok with a small cam.

There is a list of heads available (http://wiki.panotools.org/Heads), but I think most motorized units won't cope with an MF system.

Edmund

I use the Seitz VR Drive 2.

I've shot 1Dx and Canon 400mm f/2.8 on it with no problems whatsoever - that's probably the heaviest kit (of any sort) I've used on it for a serious piece of work. I also did a test with the 800/5.6, and it seemed just fine, but I've not actually produced anything with that yet. It was tempting to try the 1200/5.6 on it, but that might be pushing things a little far...

On the MF side of things, probably the heaviest I've used it with would be the Phase AF/IQ180 and Mamiya 300/2.8. It didn't even break into a sweat.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 14, 2014, 05:51:18 am
We're certainly out of the toy range here with the Seitz - most SLRs would register as an accessory for the head :)

I just bought a toy $25 clockwork driven pano head for my iPhone. At that price it even came with a pocket tripod. It's unusable handheld, but just before throwing it away I met a bunch of japanese, and they showed me that it makes group selfies during get-togethers: place it on a table and it rotates and shoots everyone around the table.

The group selfie is a new social art form - 21st century version of the old self-timer group photograph. I'd expect we'll see new equipment to do it better, as there is a definite expectation that these images be taken, just as people now expect to take selfies on social occasions, and every phone now has a supplementary camera tailored for that use.

Edmund

I use the Seitz VR Drive 2.

I've shot 1Dx and Canon 400mm f/2.8 on it with no problems whatsoever - that's probably the heaviest kit (of any sort) I've used on it for a serious piece of work. I also did a test with the 800/5.6, and it seemed just fine, but I've not actually produced anything with that yet. It was tempting to try the 1200/5.6 on it, but that might be pushing things a little far...

On the MF side of things, probably the heaviest I've used it with would be the Phase AF/IQ180 and Mamiya 300/2.8. It didn't even break into a sweat.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: pedro39photo on June 14, 2014, 07:15:04 am
with those price ranges this brands are not for real photo professionals, are for rich people with big pockets and love for photography.
The hasselblad and the leica in some segments are transforming photo tools into photo jewel tools...
I understand this, there are more and more rich people from Asia countries with to much money to spent...

Lets pimp the tripods, the bags, the flashs with some rare hoods and crystals and ask 2000$.

Its mad times... 
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: MrSmith on June 14, 2014, 08:11:55 am
"The group selfie is a new social art form"
Hardly surprising now we live in the age of narcissism where the sense of self worth and documenting every ephemeral moment has been elevated to an everyday necessity.
Even better if you can do it with a bejewelled bauble hung round your neck.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 14, 2014, 08:27:42 am
"The group selfie is a new social art form"
Hardly surprising now we live in the age of narcissism where the sense of self worth and documenting every ephemeral moment has been elevated to an everyday necessity.
Even better if you can do it with a bejewelled bauble hung round your neck.

Yes. Leica got it perfectly, the Vario T is purpose-built to be seen.

However there has always been a ceremonial function to photography; it is perfectly fulfilled by the marriage photographer, or the political press-camera click-circus.

What I find interesting is that companies etc are not hiring photographers any more to make a group photo of the employees at work etc - there is a depreciation of social belonging accompanying the narcissism of the everyday.

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: JV on June 14, 2014, 10:28:39 am
Maybe lens prices are creeping up because with mirrorless cameras will soon just be boxes with no moving parts, all AF mechanisms, aperture and maybe central shutter in the lens?

If every MF cam is just a box with a Sony sensor, a screen on the back, and a shutter button, differentiation is going to be hard to achieve...

The camera will in effect become a "brand dongle" attached to the lens, exactly like the overexpensive branded batteries which have proprietary contacts so you have to use them on your device.

Edmund

That is what I am wondering as well.

People will always be willing to pay for a good body but I don't believe that the current ridiculous prices are maintainable long term for CMOS sensors.

Joris.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 14, 2014, 10:36:04 am
That is what I am wondering as well.

People will always be willing to pay for a good body but I don't believe that the current ridiculous prices are maintainable long term for CMOS sensors.

Joris.

or CCD.

;)

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 14, 2014, 11:34:55 am
... What I find interesting is that companies etc are not hiring photographers any more to make a group photo of the employees at work etc - there is a depreciation of social belonging...

Not just that... it is simply too much work. Companies would have to have a full-time retoucher on staff to "refresh" group photos every month so, after the latest round of purges, a.k.a. downsizing, rightsizing, outsourcing, etc. Stalin did (both having a full-time retoucher, and purges - after several sessions of the central committee, group photos started to look more like a Swiss cheese)  ;)
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: telyt on June 14, 2014, 01:25:01 pm
Yes. Leica got it perfectly, the Vario T is purpose-built to be seen.

Unlike the straps supplied by CaNikon that are made only to hold the camera.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 14, 2014, 02:26:34 pm
I think Leica wins at the don't look at me I'm only taking a picture game.

Edmund

(http://static.leica-camera.com/var/leica/storage/images/media/media-asset-management-mam/global-international/photography/t-system/t-system-accessories/features/t-system-accessories-handschlaufe-2/1133715-2-eng-MA/T-SYSTEM-ACCESSORIES-HANDSCHLAUFE-2_teaser-480x320.png)

Unlike the straps supplied by CaNikon that are made only to hold the camera.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Telecaster on June 14, 2014, 02:44:17 pm
What I find interesting is that companies etc are not hiring photographers any more to make a group photo of the employees at work etc - there is a depreciation of social belonging accompanying the narcissism of the everyday.

At one of the startups I was involved with I served as the unofficial photographer. I always had a camera with me at work, and every couple months or so I'd spend a whole day taking portraits, candids, group meeting shots, etc. During the greatest growth period I'd take formal portraits of the more recent folks with a 100/2 and ultra-close shots of everyone else with a fisheye. Getting "fisheyed" was a rite of passage...you'd stuck around long enough to be caricatured.   ;)

-Dave-
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: telyt on June 14, 2014, 06:50:09 pm
I think Leica wins at the don't look at me I'm only taking a picture game.

Edmund

(http://static.leica-camera.com/var/leica/storage/images/media/media-asset-management-mam/global-international/photography/t-system/t-system-accessories/features/t-system-accessories-handschlaufe-2/1133715-2-eng-MA/T-SYSTEM-ACCESSORIES-HANDSCHLAUFE-2_teaser-480x320.png)


They all play that game.  Red Hasselblads, Nikons styled by Giugiaro, big white lenses, 'woodie' sigmas… I'm sure the list doesn't end there.
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on June 14, 2014, 07:26:57 pm
Not just that... it is simply too much work. Companies would have to have a full-time retoucher on staff to "refresh" group photos every month so, after the latest round of purges, a.k.a. downsizing, rightsizing, outsourcing, etc. Stalin did (both having a full-time retoucher, and purges - after several sessions of the central committee, group photos started to look more like a Swiss cheese)  ;)

Slobodan…  golden times!!!!
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: bcooter on June 14, 2014, 11:04:34 pm
Man, if Leica gave away bars of gold, this forum would complain about how their polished.

Why the negativity?

I think most people are missing the first rule of commerce which is to turn a profit.

Ask any seller of goods or services what they charge and this answer might not come out of their mouth, but the thought is  . . . as much as I can.

That's not greed, that's capitalism and in todays decreasing margins, survival.

Ask the second question of who you sell to and the  response is anyone willing to legally pay.

I have an affinity for Leica.  I dig Leica because they are primarily a camera company.

Leica and Arriflex are two of the last venerable camera brands that still survive in todays world of imaging conglomerates.

So many cameras have gone or have lost their camera dna while becoming absorbed into large companies or spreading out into other industries.  They're too long to list.

What I don't get about all of this discussion is when did it become a sin to actually enjoy something you want, purposeful or not?

I bought my wife a small Leica with a fixed lens.   It's basically a panasonic with a Leica feel and she loves it.   I could have saved by buying it's panasonic brother, but she loves her leica and that's all that matters.

I might buy her a T because I think the modern interface it's where cameras will be going and it's the right size and format for what she enjoys photographing.

I know when I put the S2  or M series in my hand it makes me smile and has a tactile feel that is the best of non human touch I can get.

Regardless of all of this the cameras I buy are for commerce and my S2 is not overpriced.   Actually in most of our productions we spend more on drives than I did for the S2, which to me is a shocking perspective, because there is nothing fun or sexy about hard drives.

But all this talk about 360 pano selfies has nothing to do with me and though it probably exists I don't know of many professionals that make their living off of selfies, so I take that stuff with a tiny grain of thought, though for personal fun, I can see their advantages, just not in my world.

Leica m8
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/my_selfie_leica_m8.jpg)

IMO

BC

Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Atina on June 15, 2014, 04:42:30 am
Yes. Leica got it perfectly, the Vario T is purpose-built to be seen.

I think Leica wins at the don't look at me I'm only taking a picture game.

Edmund

(http://static.leica-camera.com/var/leica/storage/images/media/media-asset-management-mam/global-international/photography/t-system/t-system-accessories/features/t-system-accessories-handschlaufe-2/1133715-2-eng-MA/T-SYSTEM-ACCESSORIES-HANDSCHLAUFE-2_teaser-480x320.png)


First, do you mean Leica T Typ 701 by Leica Vario T?

Second, aren't the two posts I quoted conflicting?
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 15, 2014, 07:34:15 am
Man, if Leica gave away bars of gold, this forum would complain about how their polished.

But all this talk about 360 pano selfies has nothing to do with me and though it probably exists I don't know of many professionals that make their living off of selfies, so I take that stuff with a tiny grain of thought, though for personal fun, I can see their advantages, just not in my world.

Leica m8
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/my_selfie_leica_m8.jpg)

IMO

BC



Hey man, I didn't know there was such a thing as an f'ing panoramic selfie. In fact I didn't really know there was such a thing as a selfie until my 3 year old started to expect me to hand the camera phone to *him* so he could take pictures of *us*. I've also tried handing him the real camera with not so great success, although there is definitely entertainment to be had from watching a 3 year old wield a D3x :)

The wikipedia article on selfies make extremely interesting reading. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfie)

Manufacturers note the bottom is falling out of the camera market, as users prefer cellphones. On the other hand, the selfie is trending with young users doing selfies for 30% of their images. But "real""cameras" cannot do selfies. Notice a "correlation"?

I agree no *photographer* make his living from selfies; but then few photographers these days make their livings exclusively with Leicas, so I think we can chart this conversation up to Saturday night syndrome.

BTW, anyone wants to swap a Leica S2 against my Nikon D4 and some lenses btw, I'd be delighted. In fact I'll even take a Canon 1Dx, or MF, see my ad in For Sale.

Edmund


Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: Ken R on June 15, 2014, 10:04:21 am
I think Leica wins at the don't look at me I'm only taking a picture game.

Edmund

(http://static.leica-camera.com/var/leica/storage/images/media/media-asset-management-mam/global-international/photography/t-system/t-system-accessories/features/t-system-accessories-handschlaufe-2/1133715-2-eng-MA/T-SYSTEM-ACCESSORIES-HANDSCHLAUFE-2_teaser-480x320.png)


Had Leica put a pop up EVF (like the one in the Sony RX100III), and a better sensor on the T, I might have been game.  ;D
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: eronald on June 15, 2014, 10:11:09 am
Had Leica put a pop up EVF (like the one in the Sony RX100III), and a better sensor on the T, I might have been game.  ;D

Yeah, it's kind of interesting that they chose to include a pop-up flash, and externalize the huge EVF.
The images seem Leica quality - what I saw is pretty good, it's not a toy.

I think the Sony pop-up then pop-out EVF is one of those amazing Sony touches of tech/design brilliance. Probably gets broken in no time, but soooo cute.

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica S lens price increase
Post by: gerald.d on June 15, 2014, 10:51:00 am
Hey man, I didn't know there was such a thing as an f'ing panoramic selfie.

https://theta360.com/en/

With regards panoramas (of the non-selfie kind), the more people who don't believe there's a living to made from shooting them, the better.

Kind regards,

Gerald.