Luminous Landscape Forum

Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2005, 11:38:44 pm

Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2005, 11:38:44 pm
since that one is gone with the wind, I thought I would just restart a new one.

We had been dicussing the interested of adding a new category to the forum where people could exchange constructive comments on each others' images.

The main goal is to get feedback from peers so as to progress and get an idea of how others perceive an image.

We could start with a very simple implementation based on the current forum architecture, with something like
- a new forum category "images commenting",
- one new thread woujld have to be started per image for which comments are expected.
- Guidelines for commenting would be useful, but having one or several thread in the forum category where people would maintain an on-going discussion about the process of commenting would it itself be a sort of guidline already.

Kind of hard to summarize 150 posts in a few lines, but go ahead guys...

Regards,
Bernard
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: jdemott on September 16, 2005, 12:28:35 pm
Yes, it is too bad that thread was lost.  There were some good ideas from a number of folks.  I briefly tried to find a cached version on Google but had no luck--perhaps someone else will have a better search strategy.  Here are a few thoughts that come to mind:

First, there is nothing preventing any of us from posting photos for comment now.  Some of us have done that in the past and have received generally very constructive comments.  The case for establishing a new forum category will be much stronger if members have already demonstrated an interest in participating and shown a willingness to provide useful feedback.

Second, the most useful guideline would be a request that people submitting a photo for comment describe a specific photographic objective or specific question that they would like to have addressed by other members.  Examples of reasonable questions might be "how could I better emphasize the color of this scene?" or "does the foreground in this this photo add or detract from the overall composition?" since they show that the photographer has given some thought to the photo and is interested in some serious discussion of it.  On the other hand, posts along the lines of "please comment on my picture" don't show much thought and are more likely to generate only platitudes or flames.

Third, the website feature that would best promote discussion of images would be the ability to easily upload photos from our local hard drives to the LL server.  I find it rather cumbersome to have to upload to a separate server and then type in the URL for the file.  I doubt there would be a serious problem of using too much storage space or bandwidth as long as there was some reasonable limit on file sizes, say 250K.

John
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 16, 2005, 01:44:03 pm
Bernard, thanks for restarting this. If you hadn't I was thinking of doing it. As you know, I am in favour of this idea.

To quickly summarize my previous contributions and some thoughts of others I retained:

(1) We only need very simple guidelines: keep the discussion constructive, no insults, do not personalize it, and stick to the artistic and technical aspects of the photographs.

(2) Within those limits, it is open discussion between photographers, so nothing prevents the person submitting the work from responding to comments of others.

(3) Submittors are free to accompany their photographs with some commentary if they think it useful, but in general one expects photographs to speak for themselves.

(4) It isn't a mutual admiration society - people will say what they think subject to (1).

(5) Given the above, the forum will take on its own character as determined by the participants. Participants will self-select accordingly.

(6) There should be a moderator with a light hand in case something goes out of control and deserves intervention.

(7) With respect to format, it can start as simply as the recent discussion of Lisa's image: it is posted within the Board format and comments simply follow. This takes no particular administrative effort - perhaps only specification of space constraints. If the whole initiative has traction, the administrators may want to think of turning it into something a bit fancier with nicer display options, etc. But not yet.

Hope this helps.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: theophilus on September 16, 2005, 03:24:58 pm
I think it's a good idea.  Suggestions:

1) Multiple images in a single post only if it is of the same subject.  On other sites I'll immediately leave a thread if there are 10 different shots posted for critique.
2) Max of 1 new post per day in that forum will keep it from getting flooded and make people think harder about what to post.  Should contribute to better conversations as well.

/my2cents.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Lisa Nikodym on September 16, 2005, 06:01:07 pm
All the suggestions above sound excellent to me.  Add me to the "supporters" list.  :)

Lisa
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: mikeseb on September 16, 2005, 07:38:12 pm
I'm in. I just hope we can pull it off like adults, given the "discussion" (akin to what's heard in a schoolyard) raging over in Landscape & Nature under "Sunrise B&N".

I'm more than a little tired of the mutual-admiration society over at photo.net, my usual site to post work. And there is not much appreciation for intelligent criticism delivered with wit. I trust we can do better here.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 16, 2005, 08:32:34 pm
For me, the schoolyard discussion about <Sunrise B&N> is  history. I'm not worried - L-L folks won't foster the survival of such rubbish for long. The easiest way of dealing with the occasional temper tantrum is to ignore it and it will go away. As long as the venture gets off to a good start with several serious discussions it will establish a standard of decorum and dialogue that posters will ignore at their peril.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Ray on September 16, 2005, 08:59:57 pm
Quote
The easiest way of dealing with the occasional temper tantrum is to ignore it and it will go away.
Mark,
You know that the temper tantrums resulting from the inaugural performance of Stravinsky's 'Rite of Spring' did not affect the enduring quality of the work.

The work eventually stands on its merits whatever the initial tantrums.

With any honest discussion of art, such reactions are inevitable and unavoidable.

To those in favour of a critique section which encourages honest comment, it's going to be a hotbed of insults, if it's worth anything.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Lisa Nikodym on September 16, 2005, 09:14:16 pm
Quote
I'm in. I just hope we can pull it off like adults, given the "discussion" (akin to what's heard in a schoolyard) raging over in Landscape & Nature under "Sunrise B&N".

Don't worry.  Sometime after that one started, I posted an image for critique too, and everyone was perfectly well-behaved.    A shame it was one of the threads completely lost during the changeover...

Lisa
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 16, 2005, 09:24:09 pm
Ray, what happened in the Paris Opera in 1913 was a disgrace that became legandary because the Rite of Spring  ushered in 20th century music. None of our photographs will likely achieve that kind of distinction, while we can all live without the surrounding commotion. A discussion forum focusing on the artistic and technical merits of photographs will be worth much more without the insults than with them. For one thing, it will be more civilised, and that will attract - or at least not repel - knowledgeable people who won't stand for being insulted. (I think we've already had quite enough today being told that Occidental eyes can't appreciate empty space - please folks, spare us from any more of that rubbish.) If I dare say so, your argument is akin to the one that hockey violence is necessary to spice-up the game. I've never bought into that theory either, but that's another talk show......................
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 16, 2005, 09:25:26 pm
And yes - agreed - the discussion about Lisa's photograph was a model of how it should and can be.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: on September 21, 2005, 09:18:12 am
By popular demand I've now added a new section called User Critiques under The Art of Photography.

This section will be self moderating. I assume that regular members will ensure that discussions are kept civil.

Michael
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: jani on September 21, 2005, 09:26:59 am
Thanks, Michael, I think I speak for most of us when I say that this is much appreciated!
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on September 21, 2005, 09:36:36 am
Thank you!
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 21, 2005, 09:47:14 am
Thanks Michael, and much appreciated.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: boku on September 21, 2005, 12:15:21 pm
Quote
Thanks Michael, and much appreciated.
Thank you Michael. Is it possible to move my current critique to the new forum section?
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Ray on September 21, 2005, 10:20:52 pm
Quote
A discussion forum focusing on the artistic and technical merits of photographs will be worth much more without the insults than with them. For one thing, it will be more civilised, and that will attract - or at least not repel - knowledgeable people who won't stand for being insulted.
Mark,
It all sounds rather antisceptic to me. Political correctness is politics, not art. Although perhaps one could describe 'policitcal correctness' as the art of politics, so perhaps there is a connection there after all.

But don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating gratuitous insults for the sake of spicing things up. But we are at least protected from the fisticuffs that took place during the first performance of The Rite of Spring. Do you not remember the 'nursery' ryme of your childhood, "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me."

I have to say, I always feel restrained when commenting on someone's photo. We live in a society that seems to rely upon lots of little white lies for its smooth running (as well as a few whoppers). Tell the truth, bluntly and unequivocally (as one sees it of course, I'm not into absolutes) and one gets into serious trouble.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 21, 2005, 11:45:43 pm
Ray,

Now that Michael has established the space and told us it will be self-monitoring, I guess the onus will be on us to set the standards and make sure it stays civil - so yes, there is a risk it will be somewhat anti-septic, but I think nonetheless very interesting. I think one can tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - the deal is in how its said. So let's see how she goes!
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on September 22, 2005, 12:49:35 am
I posted an image in the critique section, and so far things have been constructive and civil. So far, so good...
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: camilla on September 22, 2005, 12:51:07 am
Thank you Michael!

Well as someone said in the famous thread a few days ago, we are a family and I seconded that in my comment in that thread- which was actually the last one written- thank goodness.

I'm sure it will work because we enjoy what we do and if we are more passionate on one particular day than the previous days, well...I'd say this...

 Let's just pretend we are all having dinner in Italy with a couple of bottles of wine on the table and we have no time restrictions and we all make a lot of noise when we talk but in the end, we are family and are just enjoying ourselves...

Good luck and I'll be looking forward to this new thread.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: leonvick on September 26, 2005, 01:35:11 am
I quit the photo forum on a popular site elsewhere because the comments were nothing more than gooey compliments that served no purpose. To add insult to  injury, whenever somebody asked for critique and got it, they became defensive to say the least. From that and similar experiences, I must conclude that online critique can only work will when the critic is a well-established authority whose opinions will be absolutely respected by us lesser mortals. Even then, a photograph that is the pride of a competent photographer will take no criticism gracefully unless it is high praise! The criteria of excellence are simply too subtle to withstand the opinions of others, and especially of those who might be less qualified to comment than the photographer who submitted the picture.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on September 26, 2005, 01:49:57 am
Have you actually visited the critique area? It bears little resemblance to what you're whining about. How about trying it before criticizing?
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: leonvick on September 27, 2005, 01:12:34 am
Quote
Have you actually visited the critique area? It bears little resemblance to what you're whining about. How about trying it before criticizing?

Whoa there, Johnnie boy! When did you get appointed as Champion of the Realm and Keeper of the Keys to the Chastity Belts of the Virgins of Hypocrisy? With a little work on your reading skills you might notice that my post was a warning referring to a different forum on a different board at a different time and place. I plead guilty to cynicism on the basis of the conditions I observed THERE, all created by good people with grand and noble intentions. Sorry if I inadvertently stepped on your toes but I'd hate to see any forum at LL become as useless as that one!
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on September 27, 2005, 08:15:40 pm
The forum members here have a fairly long and distinguished history of delivering blunt and (most of the time) constructive and useful image critiques going back as long as I've participated here, even though the designated forum for such discussions is new. So your experiences elsewhere aren't particularly meaningful or relevant to what has ever gone on here, or is likely to anytime soon. Who appointed you to be the Ultimate Arbiter Of The Practical Relevance Of Critique Forums?
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 27, 2005, 08:58:53 pm
leonvick, while you are giving other people advice about their reading skills, perhaps you should zero-in your own reading skills on your initiating post. You made sweeping generalizations clearly intended to be universally applicable, quote:

<< I must conclude that online critique can only work will when the critic is a well-established authority whose opinions will be absolutely respected by us lesser mortals. Even then, a photograph that is the pride of a competent photographer will take no criticism gracefully unless it is high praise! The criteria of excellence are simply too subtle to withstand the opinions of others, and especially of those who might be less qualified to comment than the photographer who submitted the picture.>>

Had you taken the trouble to examine the tenor of photo critique on this website - and you have been a member of this Forum for several years - you would have seen yourself that you cannot sustain these conclusions. Apart from the generalized insult to people of character that they express, they are factually wrong.

A number of us put considerable time and effort into a lengthy dialogue on the merits and guidelines for creating this section of the Forum (unfortunately that thread was a victim of the site crash), so when you come along after the fact and denigrate the initiative for ill-founded reasons, you may wish to consider the effect it has on how other members may regard the quality of your remarks.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: leonvick on September 27, 2005, 11:22:17 pm
Quote
<< I must conclude that online critique can only work will when the critic is a well-established authority whose opinions will be absolutely respected by us lesser mortals. Even then, a photograph that is the pride of a competent photographer will take no criticism gracefully unless it is high praise! The criteria of excellence are simply too subtle to withstand the opinions of others, and especially of those who might be less qualified to comment than the photographer who submitted the picture.>>

Had you taken the trouble to examine the tenor of photo critique on this website - and you have been a member of this Forum for several years - you would have seen yourself that you cannot sustain these conclusions. Apart from the generalized insult to people of character that they express, they are factually wrong.

A number of us put considerable time and effort into a lengthy dialogue on the merits and guidelines for creating this section of the Forum (unfortunately that thread was a victim of the site crash), so when you come along after the fact and denigrate the initiative for ill-founded reasons, you may wish to consider the effect it has on how other members may regard the quality of your remarks.

I did not denigrate this forum and my comments were relevant, not ill-founded. I was cynical about its success, for good reason.  Time will tell. The rules you have established prove that what you fear is what I expected, so I don't think we're so far apart.

Meanwhile, I am working with a local camera club of experienced novice photographers, trying to explore with them some principles of constructive group critique. They really want to learn how to take better photos, but without the harsh or supercilious comments often found in other clubs. Online critique is easy compared to doing it face to face in a meeting!

As for the Luminous Landscape, the first thing I said about a critique forum here was that I had quit another one elsewhere because of its flaws. I intend to participate in the LL forum with total enthusiasm. I hope it will be different and prove my doubts irrelevant. I won't mind being told if I'm wrong. Just give it some time and stay cool. Please!
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on September 28, 2005, 02:11:36 am
Quote
I did not denigrate this forum and my comments were relevant, not ill-founded. I was cynical about its success, for good reason.  Time will tell. The rules you have established prove that what you fear is what I expected, so I don't think we're so far apart.
You absolutely did so denigrate the forum here. The sweeping generalizations you made in your post completely ignore the long-standing practice of how critiques have been performed in the LL forums over the last 2-3 years (whether there's been a dedicated area for such things or not), and are insulting to those of us who have participated in those critiques. Bringing up the pointlessness of the critiques in other sites' fora is irrelevant. The idea that the LL forum members are capable of doing honest, constructive, and thoughtful image critiques, even if they aren't ego-inflating isn't pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking; it's been the rule rather than the exception for the 2 1/2 years I've been here, and isn't likely to change soon. The (unfortunately lost) thread regarding desirable critique criteria and the fact that we're even having this discussion are further evidence in that direction.

If you wish to be part of the solution instead of the problem, and continue your constructive participation in the critique forum you are certainly welcome and encouraged to do so. But please do not continue to try to reinvent your initial comments regarding the critique forum, you are only undermining your own credibility.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on September 28, 2005, 06:40:56 am
Bloody ####! this isn't even the critique forum and the insults are already flying, that forum doesn't stand a chance if this is any indication.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 28, 2005, 08:57:35 am
pom, no problem - the actual Critique forum has started well. I'm not worried now and never was through the process we engaged when developing it. That was a constructive process and the results are justifying the time we put into it. Though most of us have never met eachother, a spirit of mutual respect has emerged over time, and this is something that "leonvick" simply failed to recognize.

Needless to say, this is a wide open forum open to all comers new and experienced, hence when developing a forum section dedicated to photo-critique it is useful to have a minimal set of guidelines defining what is constructive and comfortable. For the benefit of leonvick, this wasn't done out of any kind of fear - it was done to confirm a set of expectations, and I am pleased to see that you share them. Yes, cool is the name of the game.  :cool:
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: howard smith on September 28, 2005, 10:08:47 am
"So your experiences elsewhere aren't particularly meaningful or relevant to what has EVER gone on here, or is likely to anytime soon."  [Emphasis added]

I find this a stretch.  One only has to go back to teh critique of an image submitted by sebarri to see this isn't true.

And I think this attitude comes from high places.  While not a "critique, the following response was made to a comment regarding the LL front page image:

"I assume for the tone of your comment ... that you don't care for the photograph.

That's fine. Others disagree.

For example the juried invitational exibition in Europe that just requested that it be submitted, and the book publisher that wants to use it as a cover."

I took this as the person offering the comment was entitled to his opinion, but the opinion wasn't worth much, given more photo-savy people really love the image.  A subtle put down of the person making the comment.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 28, 2005, 10:29:27 am
Howard,

The Seberri episode started in the usual correct manner. Seberri submitted a photo. The people who commented on it had problems with it and explained them correctly. Seberri had problems with our comments. So far so good - that is part of the game. But then it went way off the rails when Seberri took refuge in baseless attacks on the qualities of "occidental" vision. So yes, once in a while ridiculous things can happen on an open, international forum accessible to countless millions of people with all kinds of backgrounds, baggage, experience or inexperience. But this was - thank goodness - exceptional, which I find very encouraging and a good statement for L-L.

There is no general attitude here coming from "high places".  The people active in this area are the regular members who just call the shots as they see them. The "high places" you quote in your post were simply underlining the fact that certain kinds of critique are useful and others aren't - exactly the subject of our guidelines. I don't think there is any issue here.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: howard smith on September 28, 2005, 11:08:03 am
Mark, I was not trying to make an issue out of this.  I merely gave two (and there are others) examples that could show leonvick isn't so wrong as some others would suggest and that an on-line critique section may not be as rosey as suggested.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 28, 2005, 11:18:40 am
Howard,

I feel that your comment doesn't give a balanced view of this forum. From what I have seen, most of the time comments and critiques on the LL forum are thoughtful and sensitive. It is also true that from time to time someone makes a comment that is construed by someone else as insulting or belittling, and the reply may reflect that construction (as, I feel, was the case with the response you quoted -- without quoting the original comment that led to the response).

I once made a rather snide comment here about a certain other photography forum, and I got quickly shot down for it here on LL. Reading the responses, I realized that I had, indeed, lowered the tone of the discussion, and since that time I have tried to keep my remarks to the high level that I see most of the time on the LL forum.

-Eric
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 28, 2005, 11:21:48 am
I hadn't seen Mark's response when I posted mine. He said it better than I could.
Thanks, Mark.

Eric
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: howard smith on September 28, 2005, 12:02:30 pm
Eric, my post was never intended to be "balanced," but merely two examples (and there are more)in response to the implication that these things never happen here.  Well, they do happen here.  No, such activities are not the usual responses.  I never claimed nor even reasonably implied they were the norm, but they certainly are not extinct or even endangered.

leonvick was stating a conclusion.  He should be allowed to do that without being accused of "whining" (habitually complaining).  Beat him up and you prove his (and my) point.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: leonvick on September 28, 2005, 03:27:48 pm
Quote
Quote
I did not denigrate this forum and my comments were relevant, not ill-founded. I was cynical about its success, for good reason.  Time will tell. The rules you have established prove that what you fear is what I expected, so I don't think we're so far apart.

You absolutely did so denigrate the forum here. The sweeping generalizations you made in your post completely ignore the long-standing practice of how critiques have been performed in the LL forums over the last 2-3 years (whether there's been a dedicated area for such things or not), and are insulting to those of us who have participated in those critiques. Bringing up the pointlessness of the critiques in other sites' fora is irrelevant. The idea that the LL forum members are capable of doing honest, constructive, and thoughtful image critiques, even if they aren't ego-inflating isn't pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking; it's been the rule rather than the exception for the 2 1/2 years I've been here, and isn't likely to change soon. The (unfortunately lost) thread regarding desirable critique criteria and the fact that we're even having this discussion are further evidence in that direction.

If you wish to be part of the solution instead of the problem, and continue your constructive participation in the critique forum you are certainly welcome and encouraged to do so. But please do not continue to try to reinvent your initial comments regarding the critique forum, you are only undermining your own credibility.

Since you have written a post entirely about me instead of the topic of this thread (containing nothing but a libelous repeat of the puerile trash you've already written about me) I would suggest to Michael that it should be placed in a special forum for personal bitches as it does not belong here.

How many times do I have to tell you that my comments were about another forum, on another board, in another time and place, Jonathon? You have taken personal offense where none was ever intended and now seem determined to go to war over it. If that's the way you want this forum to be, so be it!  Consider yourself insulted and pout for the rest of your life about it. You've already told me you won't apologize so I won't either, but the next time I go to Wal-Mart I'll look for a pacifier for you.  
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: neil on September 29, 2005, 12:42:43 am
Well, why don't you all just go read a little philosophical short story, and move on. (http://pages.zoom.co.uk/leveridge/sontag.html)
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: howard smith on September 29, 2005, 11:13:44 am
neil, you log in as a super administator.  Are your views those of the Luminous Landscape or just yours?  I am confused.

You describe yourself as a visual artist.  Maybe you could drop down a few spaces here and tell us all just what an artist is, and maybe as an artist, just what art is.  If you do speak for the Luminous Landscape, then the rest of us would know what art is and what an artist is.

I have read the short story and other things by Susan Sontag.  I have never understood her myself.  Maybe it's because I have not been able to see her as particularly bounded by consistancy, so it's hard to put your finger on where she is coming from or even where she is (Added later: or where she is going).  Is it camp to understand Sontag?

Addition thought:  I've heard that indecision is the key to flexibility.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 29, 2005, 01:11:04 pm
Neil, I've read it - now, back to reality.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: neilcowley on October 03, 2005, 03:15:35 pm
My views are my own, but as Michael is very busy he's put me on monitoring the forum.  

This particular forum could easily be seen as a campground of a particular style of photographers.   In my role here, I'm to bring a little balance where needed and I was hoping in my suggestion of the essay to help you take some thoughts on the subject.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: howard smith on October 03, 2005, 03:28:26 pm
neil, you have apparently deleted my last post without any evidence it was ever there.  The post was not crude, rude or any way objectionable, but a mere statement of fact.  If you did remove it, could you tell me why?
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 03, 2005, 03:43:03 pm
Neil,

I was just in this thread a short time ago and saw some kind of post from Howard Smith saying that he wasn't coming back because of something you said to him. Then that post disappeared, but now there is another (presumably later)post from Howard - indicating evidently that he is back nonetheless - complaining that a previous post of his was deleted. Is that the one where he said he wasn't coming back? I was going to be facetious and ask whether that was a threat or a promise, but if the deleted post is the one I'm referring to, Howard clarifies it was a "mere statement of fact", so I won't go there.  :D

Now getting down to substantive stuff, thanks for posting the reference to the Sontag piece. It so happens that it didn't do much for me, but that's just me (others may have found it really meaningful) - doesn't in any way detract from the usefulness - indeed desirability - of administrators and other members bringing such "think pieces" to the table for a forum category such as this one. So members' comments about this or that think-piece shouldn't deter anyone from making such recommendations in the future.

And welcome back Howard  
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: howard smith on October 03, 2005, 03:53:35 pm
Sorry for the confusion.  I am not back.  For the record, here is neil's e-mail to me.

You have been warned by a staff member. Your warning level has been increased, and this will be viewable to all members. Once you have reached the maximum warning level, your posting permissions will be revoked.
You have been warned from the following post: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/cgi-bin....ry50217 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/cgi-bin....ry50217)

Hello Howard, thanks for reading susan's little essay and your comments for me.

The deleted post was to tell nwil to go ahead and revoke my posting permission.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on October 03, 2005, 05:12:01 pm
Hey, Neil,

I don't think Howard has said anything to justify revoking his posting privileges. I have disagreed slightly with him on one occasion, but I find his comments generally thoughtful and not at all offensive. I'm all for trying to add balance to the forum, but not by cutting off reasonable people.

Eric  
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: boku on October 03, 2005, 05:19:05 pm
This is very concerning.

I hope that statement doesn't get me a similar demerit. I am afraid to say anything.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: neilcowley on October 03, 2005, 06:25:18 pm
Howard seems to be posting just fine, no-one has revoked anything.  I use several features in moderating the forum that michael doesn't so you may not be familiar with them.

Howard's post was an inaccurate statement and I removed it becuase this thread isn't about Howard.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: neil on October 03, 2005, 06:34:19 pm
Thanks for your comment Mark, I think that's all that can be expected of any piece of 'art' and so the world spins....

Regarding Howard's warning, if you'd like to start a thread about it I can answer your questions, otherwise further posts on this topic will be deleted.
Title: New forum category on images comments
Post by: neil on October 05, 2005, 11:44:13 pm
Some more-on art critcism and how we can alighn ourselves to the reference point of hte artist to bring the best criticism. (http://www.slate.com/id/2127238/entry/2127239/nav/tap1/)

Quote
But you seem (correct me if I'm wrong) most attuned to that artist whose life is an intense and often self-consciously unworldly devotion to his or her own tightly circumscribed routine; so that when the signature of that artist finally emerges, it doesn't appear as something sudden, cheap, and public, as the commanding gesture of naughty self-branding that many people now associate with modern and postmodern art, but as something worthy of a similarly intense devotion on our part.