Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: Mark D Segal on September 14, 2005, 11:25:08 pm

Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 14, 2005, 11:25:08 pm
I'm trying to become proficient in doing panoramas because a forthcoming event in which I shall be participating will open many such opportunities. I got myself properly equipped for the capture part of it - including the camera plate/pan head from ReallyRightStuff for making sure the nodal point of the lens sits over the axis of rotation, etc, etc. The first one I attempted was a row of houses from the other side of our street (about 35 feet away, camera - Canon 1Ds - in portrait orientation). I figured it would be challenging to try a panorama with the subject matter relatively close-up, and having alot of vertical and horizontal lines that would mis-register VERY obviousyly if it were not done right. My levelling was just about correct. I took too many shots (14) for about a 150 degree field of view. I also left the camera on Auto Exposure intentionally to create some colour and luminosity mismatched sections for purposes of testing software. I brought the images into Photoshop with NO tinkering in Camera Raw, no post-processing in Photoshop - only resized and resampled to 360 PPI, each image about 5 inches wide, 7.5 high.

I only had Photomerge in Photoshop, but now I have something else as explained here. This is how I evaluated software, all with the same 14 images.

Step (1) Do it yourself manually. I created 14 layers, positioned them, warped them as needed, adjusted luminosity and some colour mismatches on a few. Result: not bad but not good enough. Too much work.

Step (2) Automatic panorama creation with PSCS2 Photomerge. Easy to do, but results not fully satisfactory: several areas of the merge were obviously merged and the color equalization left some to be desired.

Step (3) Download trial version of ArcSoft Panorama Maker 3. Very easy to use, excellent stitching, excellent colour equalization. Excellent rendition of original image sharpness and luminosity. User friendly trial arrangements. Full license 40 dollars.

Step (4) Download Real Viz Stitcher Express. Huge amount of set-up work. Very difficult interface (image floating back and forth in stitching window). Stitching OK, Color blending poor. Terrible interface for trial evaluation - can only see part of image at a time. Full license over 100 dollars. Program deleted.

Step (5) Panorama Factory 3.4. Easy to use. Excellent instructions. Good interface and stitching, but slow. Colour matching could have been better; poor luminosity rendition. Image sharpness not as well retained as in ArcSoft. Cost 60 dollars. Program deleted.

The winner: ArcSoft!

Comments on my procedures and evaluation most welcome. I need to learn more about this topic.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: U_Grsl on September 15, 2005, 03:06:02 am
I'd suggest you try also PTassembler, with Autopano and Endblend.
(http://www.tawbaware.com/ptasmblr.htm)
For easy panos, the result could be close to perfect, even in quasi automatic mode (with Autocreate).
Cost is $39, after a trial period of 30 days.
UG
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2005, 03:49:53 am
Mark,

For your information, Stitcher 5.0 will be released within days and should have a much improved interfaced with more automated functions.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 15, 2005, 10:13:39 am
UG,

I looked at their website and read the description etc. I was immediately confused by whether the suite of three is stand-alone or requires Helmut Dersch Panorama Tools as well - the way that website is set-up makes it about as useful to me as trying to read heiroglyphics in the tombs of Egypt. The program also looks to be needlessly complex to use based on what they say on the PT Assembler site, but since it only costs a bit of time for a trial, I may download it and try it.

Bernard - yes, I saw that too. BUT - Stitcher 5 will cost about as much as Photoshop. It may be the greatest thing since sliced bread and for some people worthwhile, but not for me. And their arrangements for product evaluation are a "cauchemar". Thanks anyhow for the suggestion. I'm not getting into large scale commercial panorama making so I'll pass on RealViz. I only want something that does a decent job at a reasonable cost for the perhaps limited number of panoramas I'll be doing.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: jmb on September 15, 2005, 11:07:46 am
Hey Mark,

PTAssembler really isn't all that difficult to use, especially with the new Autocreate function. When you download PTAssembler, it comes with all the PanoTools software, but you will need to download Autopano and Enblend separately (just type their names in Google and you'll easily find their respective websites). Install them on your computer (actually, I don't think there is really anything to install, just put them into a folder on you hard drive), tell PTAssembler where they are, and you are good to go. If you need more information on how to use PTAssembler (how to use the optimizer, how to blend the seams, etc.), let me know,

JMB
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: U_Grsl on September 15, 2005, 11:34:20 am
Mark
I have been a user of PTassembler for a while, so I have already forgotten about the installation complexity... however :
1_ PTassembler requires Dersch Panorama tools, but the Setup file now contains the necessary modules.
2_ The Setupfile does NOT contain 2 other modules, which I find essentials : Autopano and Enblend
they can be found respectively at :
http://autopano.kolor.com (http://autopano.kolor.com)
http://enblend.sourceforge.net (http://enblend.sourceforge.net)
Both provide .ZIP files which contains each a .EXE file which can be transferred to the directory where PTassembler have been installed (usually \program files\PTasmblr\)
they are both free.
3_ when done, open PTasmblr, to do some more setup under the tab : file/preferences
   a/ tab Files/Dirs : just verify all fieds are written, it's good to provide a path for preview (XNView for instance or even  IEexplorer)
   b/ tab Plugins : write the autopano and endblend paths

You are done and ready for the first pano, a good thing is to use the wizard, et least on first attempt (tab : Help/show wizard)

Should you experience any more difficulty, I may try to write an oversimplified workflow for a starter.

Regards
UG
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 15, 2005, 11:35:02 am
JMB, thanks for the clarification on the necessary components and thanks for the offer of help. If I decide to install three programs to do the job of one and if I run into trouble using them I shall gladly take you up on your offer of help. Cheers.  :D
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 15, 2005, 11:40:05 am
UG, thanks for taking the trouble to explain all of that to me. I would know how to do about 80% of it, and the other 20% (verifying this and that) is straight over my head. For 40 bucks I bought a single application (ArcSoft) that does the whole job seemlessly, resulting in the image quality of the original components, with a few button clicks.

It would be helpful to know whether there is any real value-added going the PTAssembler route relative to ArcSoft. What does all the pain and complexity buy me?

Cheers, Mark
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 15, 2005, 01:13:12 pm
www.autostitch.com has a free demo that produces perfect stitches.  I've printed meter-wide images stitched with this tool and source images from my D70 and kit lens.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 15, 2005, 02:10:14 pm
Thanks Peter. It only works with JPEGs. I take your word that it works well, but I don't use JPEG format.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 15, 2005, 04:59:39 pm
Mark, it is a PITA.

I convert my RAWs to HQ JPG, then stitch.   I dearly hope for BMP or TIFF I/O for Autostitch.  I've sent them several emails, but no response.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 15, 2005, 05:15:22 pm
Peter, I guess being essentially a scientific research project they can afford to be somewhat liesurely about responding to ideas. It seems like kind of a "use at your own risk" proposition. I respect what you say about the success you've had with it, and perhaps I should give it a whirl, but my reservation is really about the workflow implications. One does have maximum quality maintenance "insurance" remaining in a non-lossy compression format. JPEG conversion would be fine if certain one wouldn't ever want to edit and resave it. I just feel a bit jittery about that - especially when engaging processes that will alter the image in a way that is not totally predictable.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2005, 06:59:48 pm
Funny, I have sent them the very same email a few month ago to the Autostitch guys, no answer neither. Tiff and 16 bits support would greatly enhance the appeal of the software though.

It does work nicely indeed, but the total lack of control is annoying when you really need to make the panorama out of less than perfectly shot images. In other words, it can be great when you don't have the time, but is not credible as your only panorama tool.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Digi-T on September 15, 2005, 07:32:10 pm
For the fun of it I just compared ArcSoft ot Autostitch on a few test images. I knew that ArcSoft would produce higher quality images because I can output in Tiff but Autostitch "auto stitches" much more accurately on more images. The interface of ArcSoft is nice, straightforward, with a few nice manual controls but it doesn't seem to handle minor barrel and pincushion distortions very well. It appears that I would have to correct for that myself, first, before I stitch my images which would take some practice to figure out how much correction to apply for a given zoom range. All of my images contained slanted buildings and/or sloping horizon lines when I tested it on my favorite long cityscape test shot. Autostitch handled the distortions very well and kept all of the images nice and straight with no slope to the horizon line, just like in my original pics taken from my tripod. I also like how I can throw any group of images at it in whatever order and it is smart enough to know how to stitch the images whether they are vertical, horizontal or tiled. I have some photos I took of a tree a long time ago, handheld, before I really knew what I was doing. I simply did my best to capture the whole tree, in a tiled method, in about 7 or 8 photos. The information was there but the shots were not very orderly. No other program I have tried, even ArcSoft, could stitch it except for Autostitch where I simply opened all of the images and ran the program. This was very impressive. It wasn't a perfect stitch because I had shifted around slightly when shooting, but at least the program worked and I still get to enjoy the image.  Autostitch is very slow and doesn't provide visual manual corrections but it still has other adjustments that help when needed. I wish I had a program that combined the best of these two programs. I will be keeping an eye out for Autostitch in hopes that they will, at least, provide a version with lossless output.

T
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Andrew Larkin on September 16, 2005, 01:14:50 am
Hey, here's a conspiracy theory for you all re Autostitch:

Autostitch did say on their web site that they *could* develop the tool to handle tiff's and 16-bits easily, but they had chosen not to because they wanted a commercial buyer for the technology.

Now we have Realviz 5.0 due for release any day now with what might be very similar automatic stitching capability - seems to me that Realviz would be exactly the kind of commercial buyer that the Autostitch guys would have been looking for.

Finally, I just tried going to the autostitch web site to find the relevant quote and I find that the site's dns entry seems to have vanished - might be coincidence, or maybe not?

Andrew
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 16, 2005, 02:02:37 am
Which would be great from my point of view actually.

It is exactly like having small startup selling their technology to Adobe instead of wasting time and resources re-inventing the wheel - which often results in poor quality software lacking features and stability.

Here, we will have the advantage of the proven Stitcher basis, with one additional function which works great. I don't really see any problem with this approach.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 16, 2005, 07:52:43 am
ddolde, thanks for pointing me to Panavue. I like their website and trial conditions - very informative and the software looks good. I shall download it and try it.

Bernard, I like to keep an open mind about things, so when RealViz version 5 hits the market I'll have a look. My first experience with RealViz, however, was quite negative, as I mentioned in my opening post. Compared with other stuff on the market the pricing, ease of use and program try-out conditions just don't cut it. Let us see whether they have re-thought all this with version 5.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Chris_T on September 16, 2005, 08:42:35 am
I have been researching into which stitching tool to use for a while, but have yet to seriously play with any. PS' PhotoMerge does not work well at all for my 4000dpi film scans intented for Super B size prints. Even if the images have >30% overlaps and are reasonably well aligned. (BTW, just like any digital imaging discussion, image source, size, and output intent all matter, a whole lot. Would appreciate posters providing context in this regard in their postings.)

The tool of choice seems to be PanoTools, but many describe it as difficult to use. This leads to the development of a few frontend user interface tools to make it easier, such as the PTassembler. Others are mentioned here:

http://panotools.sourceforge.net/ (http://panotools.sourceforge.net/)

Instead of these sharewares, I'm most interested in the freeware Hugin. Not only is it free, but it includes and supports many features missing in the sharewares, as mentioned earlier in this thread. It gets lots of thumbsups from serious stitchers, and has an active Q&A mailing list. Would appreciate Hugin users to jump in.

http://hugin.sourceforge.net/ (http://hugin.sourceforge.net/)

I can provide more stitching links if interested.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Chris_T on September 16, 2005, 08:47:46 am
I have been researching into which stitching tool to use for a while, but have yet to seriously play with any. PS' PhotoMerge does not work well at all for my 4000dpi film scans intented for Super B size prints. Even if the images have >30% overlaps and are reasonably well aligned. (BTW, just like any digital imaging discussion, image source, size, and output intent all matter, a whole lot. Would appreciate posters providing context in this regard in their postings.)

The tool of choice seems to be PanoTools, but many describe it as difficult to use. This leads to the development of a few frontend user interface tools to make it easier, such as the PTassembler. Others are mentioned here:

http://panotools.sourceforge.net/ (http://panotools.sourceforge.net/)

Instead of these sharewares, I'm most interested in the freeware Hugin. Not only is it free, but it includes and supports many features missing in the sharewares, as mentioned earlier in this thread. It gets lots of thumbsups from serious stitchers, and has an active Q&A mailing list. Would appreciate Hugin users jumping in with their opinions.

http://hugin.sourceforge.net/ (http://hugin.sourceforge.net/)

I can provide more stitching links if interested.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 16, 2005, 09:56:20 am
Chris, I did mention in my opening post most of the key parameters for my test set. I failed to mention the lens was set at 50mm, and the output intention is a simple row panorama for print.

ddolde, I just tried Panavue Image Assembler (Professional edition) with the same set of photographs - in automatic mode - and it was a complete disaster - total failure to allign the images in the correct places. It seems that it won't work properly on my test set without manually setting flags. Too bad, it has some nice fetures otherwise. If you can be so kind as to review the description of my test set, and since you know the program, suggest to me a combination of settings that may allow the automatic function to work properly I would like to give it another try.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 16, 2005, 08:17:14 pm
Digi-T, I'm glad you're having success with Autostitch.  My only worry is that it will vanish.  I've had to download a new copy once already and I'd hate it if it was unavailable.  My D70 kit lens has significant barrel distortion which I remove wit PTLens before stitching.

Mark, your comments re JPG's are totally reasonable.  I do see some softness out of Autostitch JPGs even at the highest quality setting.  I found Stitcher 3.0 unusable and the other assemblers had equally daunting learning curves.  Autostitch and PhotoVista are no-brainer stitchers.  That's me.  No-brainer.

One Autostitch anomaly I've noticed is it won't stitch more than three verticals.  Annoying, since that's the optimum way of shooting panos.  Anybody confirm this?

Peter
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Digi-T on September 16, 2005, 11:57:26 pm
Peter, I share your concern that Autostitch may vanish and I have had to download a new version as well. I am not sure why your version is having difficulties with vertical shots. I agree that vertical shots are the best way to shoot for panoramics and I just successfully stitched 11 vertical shots that I am very impressed with. I didn't find a flaw with the stitching except that it might be a little softer than from some other stitching programs. Even though it is just a jpeg at slightly less then optimal quality I am still very pleased with it and will probably print it as is. It is so large with so much information in it that I will likely not print it so large that any of the minor flaws will reveal themselves in the print.

T
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 18, 2005, 12:09:37 am
Hmm.  I'd given up on verticals.  I'll try again.  Thanks, Digi-T.

I agree, output is a little soft, but heck, my image dimensions are frequently 6-8K pixels wide.  With that size a file, I can take a tiny bit of JPG softness for now.

We should keep bombarding www.autostitch.com with requests to make it commercial.  UBC is my alma mater, too

P
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 18, 2005, 09:33:44 am
Quote
Autostitch and PhotoVista are no-brainer stitchers.
Photovista is also a no-brainer stitcher in the sense that even though their website says it does, when you download the program and try it - it does NOT accept TIF files. Also it downloads bundled software I didn't ask for (e.g. "metamail") and it insidiously puts you on their junk mail list unless you UNCHECK a selection box. This is socially incorrect behaviour on today's web - they are supposed to give you the option to check the box if you want their advertising. Photovista is now uninstalled - as is metamail.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 18, 2005, 11:44:18 am
Mark, Photovista was my default stitcher until Autostitch.  I actually paid money for it about three vendors ago.

With Autostitch, there's no going back.  PV is far inferior, less forgiving and puts a grid of nasty black lines into the stitch.  I shouldn't have mentioned it.  Bad me.  Bad, bad, bad.

P
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 18, 2005, 12:47:31 pm
No sweat Peter, it only took a few minutes to download, discover it doesn't work and uninstall.

Actually, from eveything said above and what I've tried myself, the software aspect boils down to several simple provisonal findings:

(1) ArcSoft is the most cost-effective of the lot, with emphasis on the "effective".
(2) Autostitch would be more promising with TIF capability.
(3) RealViz Stitcher 5 remains to be assessed once it hits the market.

Turning from the software to the prior issue of capture requirements, it seems to me the key issues relate to (i) camera to subject distance (the further away the better?); (ii) using manual exposure and retaining one setting that avoids clipping important highlights in the brightest part of the panorama (digital capture); (iii) probably better to use the longest focal length feasible (better convergence at the seams?); (iv) don't overlap more than 20 to 40% (can create problems for the software). Comments on these items and additional suggestions welcome.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 19, 2005, 01:44:39 am
I agree with most of your pano shooting points, Mark.  

I occasionally use different exposures for each source shot, rather than sticking to one constant exposure. The idea is that you present the stitcher with the least colour and density differences between source frames.

For maximum quality, shoot and stitch verticals.

Keep horizons scrupulously level and in the middle third of the frame if shooting with wide lenses.  Use a distortion remover before stitching.  

The longer the lens, the easier it is on the stitcher.

I almost never use a tripod for panos.  Only exceptions are if light levels demand it or if there is subject matter close to the lens.

Panos wider than 90 degrees are frequently boring.  I seldom make them wider than 180.

Panos can work in the most unusual situations.  It's amazing what you can get away with.    Experimenting is fun.

There's no easier way to get more bang for your camera buck.

Peter
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: drew on September 19, 2005, 04:13:00 am
Just add another recommendation for panotools, PTassembler and the enblend and autopano plug-ins. There are, in my view only two drawbacks to this package:
1/ It will only handle 8-bit files (autopano will not work at all with 16-bit files).
2/ With enblended tiffs, you get a bit of banding in overlap areas of clear blue sky. The patch tool in Photoshop can repair this.
BTW there is a review of PTassembler on this site.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 19, 2005, 07:43:46 am
I don't see the 8-bit issue as a drawback, considering (a) the file sizes one is dealing with making a panorama, ( the fact that the most "destructive" image editing can be done in 16 bit then converted to 8 for stitching, and © the evidence Dan Margulis has presented on the 8 versus 16 bit issue in general.

The two main drawbacks of this software are: (i) three programs needed to do the job of one because of a dense, complex. non-user friendly base program followed by the need to do yet more touching up in a 4th program, and (ii) with ArcSoft the interface is simple and there is no such banding. I acknowledge that experienced users of Panotools/PT who are getting good results have every justification to recommend it, but for someone now getting into panorma-making, there would need to be compelling reasons to use four programs instead of one. Are there such compelling reasons? Am I missing something here?
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: drew on September 19, 2005, 09:59:36 am
Mark,
The simple answer is if Arcsoft does exactly what you want it to, then look no further. Why the discussion?....
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: jmb on September 19, 2005, 11:12:23 am
The most compelling reason is quality and flexibility. The quality you can get from PanoTools is significantly better than the other programs. Secondly, the program is significantly more flexible allowing you to easily (in photoshop) correct stitching misalignments/parallex errors, eliminate duplicates (of people, cars, etc), etc.

WRT to PTAssembler needing three different programs, it has very little to do with being a dense, complex, non-user friendly base program (unless you are of course talking about PanoTools which is a script based program...). The reason Max hasn't included Autopano and Enblend with PTAssembler is that they aren't his programs to distribute (but they are available freely from their author's sites). In truth, you don't need Autopano or Enblend at all. It is quite simple to select 3-5 control points per seam and to do all the final touching up/blending in photoshop by editing the layer masks. Enblend and Autopano are for lazy people like me (of course, I've gotten a little less lazy recently and am rarely using Enblend...).

So, my suggestion is to give Max's program a shot for about a week (or say 5 panos), and see what you think. You appear to be very willing to try other "simple" programs but are unsatisfied with the results... Give the more "complex" program a shot (using the Autocreate function) and see what happens... (the forums that Max hosts are very good for advice...)

JMB
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 19, 2005, 11:38:29 am
drew, the answer to your question is that I have given these various softwares ONE - albeit stiff - test. Once I get into doing others different issues I am now unaware of could arise, requiring software with more tweaking options. While ArcSoft passed my first evaluation with flying colours - superior to everything else I tried, it is a one-shot program with not much tweaking allowed. Also it does not have an option to automatically amend the warp, which could be handy - but in truth this is manageable in Photoshop manually. So I am still in a research phase, not necessarily settled on a one-size-fits-all solution just yet. The views I'm getting in this discussion thread are most interesting and useful.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: drew on September 19, 2005, 12:53:48 pm
Well, as someone who has been through a research stage on this very issue (albeit not an exhaustive one), I still give the thumbs up to PTassembler etc. I do not seem to be the only one.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 19, 2005, 01:24:20 pm
Drew, thanks, I appreciate the advice. The way I intend to proceed is that when I next make a number of panorama sequences, I shall first try stitching them in ArcSoft, simply because from my first test, it seems so darn easy and successful. If that runs into problems, then I shall try PTAssembler to see whether it has features that would resolve those problems. This conforms with my approach to not make things any more complicated than they need to be.

By the way, as I write I have beside me a 14.5 inch print of that panorama test I did, processed in Arcsoft. It is a composite of 14 portrait-mode photographs. There isn't a shred of evidence that it is any more than 1 photograph. That's how good it is. I regret that I cannot post it, due to arcane restrictions my ISP imposes on hyperlinking images from a website on their system to a discussion forum.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: digidon on September 19, 2005, 10:49:35 pm
After trying photomerge in PS CS2 with some of my handheld and tripod tile shots I usually ended up saving the layers and performing endless manipulations to correct out the mismatches.  On your recommendation I downloaded the ArcSoft demo.  On two of my most difficult to merge sets it did an almost perfect job, leaving only a superficial cosmetic adjustment for PS....the manual tuning in ArcSoft did nothing to fix it.  But, the auto stitching was so near perfect, compared to PS, I don't care.  Adobe should call these guys.  I'm tempted to buy ArcSoft immediately but tomorrow I plan to do a 3x3 handheld tile test.  This software is deceptive because of the appearance - it's not professional looking enough to do that good of a job.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 19, 2005, 11:02:02 pm
You're right - the interface does look too simple to be "professional"; but does "professional" necesarily have to mean "convoluted and difficult"? Maybe the summit of professionalism is to do very complex things in an apparently simple way? Well, looking forward to hearing about your results with tomorrow's acid test.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: digidon on September 20, 2005, 11:44:31 pm
Mark,
I agree-simplicity is a mark of genius, or was that professionalism.  Anyway, I did the 3x3 hand held test today.
The results of this sloppy unscientific test is that neither PS CS2 nor ArcSoft would do a perfect stitch of nine shots.  But, I found the best way to do a 3x3 in ArcSoft and still have to try it with PS.  Check out the result on this web page.
http://www.higherworld.com/stitch/ (http://www.higherworld.com/stitch/)
Don
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 20, 2005, 11:56:17 pm
Hi Don,

It's neither sloppy nor unscientific. Very methodical. And the results are most interesting. Clearly the ArcSoft result "out of the box" was better than that from Photomerge, but your two-step process, by simplifying the stitching challenge to two unidimensional steps really worked. Clever. I don't think one could ask for a more satisfactory outcome. I'll stick my neck out and hazard a guess that Photomerge won't be quite as good even with the two-step process, but really looking forward to seeing the outcome. Thanks for doing this.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on September 21, 2005, 01:39:32 am
I've been using PTAssembler to do my stitching. While there is a bit of a learning curve, the control you get makes stitching very difficult images possible. I use the multi-layer PSD output where each component image is a separate layer, and blend by hand. This makes dealing with movement like grass blowing in the wind and waves on a lake possible to deal with in a way that no auto program can match. While it takes time, I've made 24x48 prints with no visible seams whatsoever.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: BryanHansel on September 21, 2005, 01:34:46 pm
I've been doing a lot of 360x180 degree images lately for websites.  I'm using a 360Precision pano head (sweet!), D70, and a 10.5DX lens.  I've gone through the whole search for the perfect software that does everything perfectly, with no input from me, and in record time, but I haven't found that piece of software yet.

Someone mentioned Hugins in this thread before, and it is what I've settled on.  It is much like PTGui and PTassembler, but it is open source and free.  Only lacking for me is that ability to apply a template to each project, which would speed up stitching of multiple exposures to later combine to increase dynamic range.

Also, I had a few questions about what I use from visitors to my website, and my father wanted to learn how to do this also, so I wrote a couple page article and posted it at my site.  Hopefully, it explains a bit more about Hugin, autopano, and enblend.

As a side note, Autostitch seems just to be using the SIFT method of finding control points, which is exactly the same as autopano and autopano-SIFT both of which are free and usable inside of Hugins.  With Autopano, enblend, and Hugins ability to output .tiffs, etc... it would seem that users of Autostitch would benefit from the switch to the free and open source Hugins.

Anyway, at this point with Hugins, it takes me about five to ten minutes to stitch a 360x180 image made from 8 level pictures, one up, and two down.  Then using the photoshop 16 bit plug-in for PTtools, I add in the nadir point.  This adds about 15 minutes.

Hope this helps,

Bryan

Here's the link to the article:

Quick and Dirty Hugin Panoramic Stitching (http://www.bryanhansel.com/articles/panohowto.htm)
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: digidon on September 21, 2005, 02:11:56 pm
Mark.
You were right about PS difficulty with 1x3 stitching compared to ArcSoft.  See results of test update at
http://www.higherworld.com/stitch/ (http://www.higherworld.com/stitch/)
Don
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 21, 2005, 04:54:53 pm
Don, thanks alot for doing this and sharing it with us. It is very instructive - and gives me confidence in my recent purchase of ArcSoft. I'll save exploring the more labour-intensive programs should the need arise.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 21, 2005, 10:40:15 pm
Great posts, Bryan and Don.  Very informative.  Thanks!

It looks like I'd be wise to cover my backside and order Arcsoft, too.  I'm addicted to the power of stitching.

Peter
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: digidon on September 22, 2005, 10:03:00 pm
Peter,
Thanks for admitting your addiction to the "power of stitching".  Now I can come out of the closet.  The 4x5 people will laugh at us for choosing little cameras.  But, my answer to them is that I would really like to stitch some of their 4x5's.  They don't understand.  It's addiction to the process and not the size of the format.
Don
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Tim Gray on September 25, 2005, 01:31:08 pm
Don't recall anyone mentioning Acrylic (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=46CEF4B1-7E80-474F-AECD-ACB255902B82&displaylang=en) from Microsoft (free for now).  I've done a couple, one a 6 shot pano of Goosenecks of the San Jauan, with only one really minor mismatch.  Although I haven't stressed it with deliberate exposure mismatches it compares favourably to PTA which is what I would normally use - and Acrylic is really really easy to use.  Navigating through all the menus just to do a stitch can be a pain, so here are the simple instructions:

File_ New Vector Layer
File_ Insert image
Image_ Stitch selected images
Object_ Image_ Export as image file
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: david75 on September 26, 2005, 07:01:10 am
If you are a PC user you can try PTGUI (http://www.ptgui.com) the new beta of the 5 version is amazing and full automated.

A greeting
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 26, 2005, 11:11:16 am
Thanks for the heads-up David, I shall go there and have a look - sounds good. I hope they've improved on what they allow for product evaluation, because what they've provided up to now is a major sales turn-off.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: FGARVIN on September 26, 2005, 11:29:46 pm
Mark, this has been a great thread, on your reco, I have ordered Arcsoft and am looking forward to using it as soon as it comes.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 26, 2005, 11:50:08 pm
FGarvin, I can only claim partial credit for the recommendation, because it came recommended to me through an article on panoramas published in "Nature Photographers Online Magazine", and as I got into looking at the alternatives I came to the realization that their recommendation is a good one. I hope you have good success with it, and let us hear about your results.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: david75 on September 28, 2005, 04:37:29 pm
PTGUI 5 final version is now avaliable for download.

A gretting  :)
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: digidon on September 30, 2005, 05:00:47 pm
OKAY, some people, including myself, came to the conclusion that ArcSoft was the best stitcher.  I ran a simple hard-to-stitch nine shot( 3x3) hand held test between "Photoshop CS2 Photomerge" and "ArcSoft"( ref: http://www.higherworld.com/stitch (http://www.higherworld.com/stitch) ).

WELL, after hearing all the chatter about PT Assembler I decided to test it using the same nine shots.  A side-by-side comparison of all three pieces of software are on http://www.higherworld.com/stitch2 (http://www.higherworld.com/stitch2) .

Don
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 30, 2005, 05:39:38 pm
Very useful test Don. What do they say: "No pain, no gain"? I may just take a deep breath and download the PT components the first time I get an unsatisfactory result from ArcSoft. Have you considered downloading a trial of RealViz Stitcher 5 to see what you can do with incredibly expensive software, or is that of no interest now that you PT so well under control?
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: digidon on September 30, 2005, 07:05:25 pm
Mark, I installed the RealViz Stitcher 5 and tried the nine original images.  It assembled them quickly as a small image too small to assess.  Then I chose "Render" and after choosing various render options hit the preview button( that was the only option available).  The following message appeared: "Stitcher has run out of memory.  Aborting.", at which time it vanished.
So, I tried only two of the images to make it easier and I got the same message and crash.  The save option was blacked out, also.
I have a ton of work to do tonight but I will revisit this expensive software a little later and report.
Don
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 30, 2005, 07:19:32 pm
I'm not surprised. When I tried to evaluate the previous version it was hopeless. May-be you'll have better luck on the next go-around.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: BryanHansel on September 30, 2005, 09:53:24 pm
I know I chimed in about Hugins earlier in the thread, but it uses all the same stuff that PTAssembler uses, but it is free.  And now the download comes with everything you need to stitch.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: pobrien3 on September 30, 2005, 10:07:07 pm
PT Gui and PT Assembler use the same base stitching engine, Helmut Dersch's Panorama Tools, which is available free of charge but is a sod to use stand-alone.  Several people have written more friendly GUIs for this, and features such as automatic control point setting and auto blending can be used with greater ease

Take a look at Max Lyons' website (http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/) if you haven't already. He wrote PT Assembler, and the latest version is more automated. I'm amazed and delighted by the results I get from PT Assembler, and get just the same from PT Gui.  I like the pano preview window you get with PT Gui, but the results are identical as far as I can ascertain.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: BryanHansel on September 30, 2005, 10:24:58 pm
I've demoed both PTGUI and PTAssembler.  The think I like about Hugins is that it is FREE, and it has a preview window like PTGUI.  It isn't as automatic as PTAssembler though.  You should check it out, because it is basically the same as the two mentioned above.  

Hugins - A Free Front for Helmut Dersch's Panorama Tools (http://hugin.sourceforge.net/)
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: DarkPenguin on September 30, 2005, 11:07:17 pm
I've never been able to get hugins to produce anything.  Like it chokes.  Does the damnedable thing work now?

PTGui seems pretty nice.  But I'd rather use hugins if it actually functions.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: pobrien3 on October 01, 2005, 12:06:48 am
I tried Hugins out of interest after reading this thread, and failed to get it to do three stitches that PT GUI and PT Assembler did seamlesslessly and effortlessly. Probably just a matter of learning it as it does use the same stitching engine, but I just find it less intuitive.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Gary_Berg on October 01, 2005, 12:07:20 pm
Has anyone compared PTGui 5's built-in stitching to the version that still uses the Panorama tools externals? It looks like with v5 of PTGui the author rolled all the external tools he had been using (stitcher, enblend, autopano) into a single program, so it could be more integrated.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on October 01, 2005, 12:15:01 pm
PTAssembler is what I've been using; I don't use auto modes, I prefer to align the images myself. I've made 24x72" prints (9 1Ds verticals in 1 row with some overlap) with zero visible seams.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Peter McLennan on October 01, 2005, 09:19:17 pm
Jeez.  Seven by two FEET.  The mind boggles.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: digidon on October 01, 2005, 11:22:55 pm
I think that's six by two feet and it's one row( 1x9) where an image must match on two sides except the end ones.  Try a manual stitch of 3x3 where your center image must conform on all sides to other images - a little tougher.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Ray on October 01, 2005, 11:27:54 pm
If there are only minor parallax problems, Panavue's Image Assembler can automatically stitch huge panoramas in 16 bit, limited in size only by the 4GB limit of the Tiff format and the 100,000 pixel limit in any one dimension.

I have a couple of images which would print out at 2ftx16ft on my Epson 7600, consisting of 13 overlapping scanned 35mm frames in the vertical position, taken before I got my first digital camera. These were taken with a Tamron 300mm lens. I've since revisited the scene and re-shot using a 400mm lens on my 20D. Instead of one row of 13 images, I now have 3 rows of 30 images. This will be a huge job to complete. If I ever do find the time to get this right, I should be able to get a tack sharp print from an Epson 9600, 3ft x 24ft.

Just boasting  :D .
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: BryanHansel on October 03, 2005, 12:14:43 am
Quote
I tried Hugins out of interest after reading this thread, and failed to get it to do three stitches that PT GUI and PT Assembler did seamlesslessly and effortlessly. Probably just a matter of learning it as it does use the same stitching engine, but I just find it less intuitive.
How did you run the optimizer?  I find it works better if you start with the yaw, then add the next one, then add the next one, etc... on down the line.  Did you use autopano?  I get just as good stitches as I did out of PT GUI and PT Assembler, but I would be interested in hearing more about the new PTGUI.  Of course, I'm using the same lens and pano-head for most of my stitching.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: pobrien3 on October 03, 2005, 02:28:38 am
Quote
How did you run the optimizer?
To be frank I can't remember - I played with the thing for only about 20 mins, and in that time I made four attempts at stitches I'd done before.  Each time I got all images overlapping each other just about 100%.  I did use autopano - I find it's better than me!

Like I said, I'm sure the big error is with me - I didn't pout in a lot of time to familiarise myself with it and I already have a tool I'm happy with. The cause of my user error though was not immediately apparent to me, which is why I say I personally found it less intuitive than the other two I used.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Chris_T on October 03, 2005, 01:48:05 pm
Quote
Mark.
You were right about PS difficulty with 1x3 stitching compared to ArcSoft.  See results of test update at
http://www.higherworld.com/stitch/ (http://www.higherworld.com/stitch/)
Don
Thank you for sharing the examples. All three seems to have a "staircase" effect on the edges of the middle purple-ish sky. Even the last one with the building well aligned, the purple sky's edge has "staircase" effects, especially right above that small white cloud.

It would be nice to see how the purple sky looks like in the pre-stitched images.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Chris_T on October 03, 2005, 01:57:04 pm
Oops. Just realized that my comments were referring to the the examples on:
http://www.higherworld.com/stitch2/ (http://www.higherworld.com/stitch2/)

Seems like you were later able to remove the "staircase". How was that done?
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Chris_T on October 03, 2005, 02:05:58 pm
Quote
Quote
I tried Hugins out of interest after reading this thread, and failed to get it to do three stitches that PT GUI and PT Assembler did seamlesslessly and effortlessly. Probably just a matter of learning it as it does use the same stitching engine, but I just find it less intuitive.
How did you run the optimizer?  I find it works better if you start with the yaw, then add the next one, then add the next one, etc... on down the line.  Did you use autopano?  I get just as good stitches as I did out of PT GUI and PT Assembler, but I would be interested in hearing more about the new PTGUI.  Of course, I'm using the same lens and pano-head for most of my stitching.
Thanks Bryant for sharing your Hugin experience, and your nice tutorial. I have yet to try any of these, but will be stitching 4000dpi 35mm scans to print on my Epson 1280 and 2200. Would appreciate you comments on stitching similar resolution images with Hugin.

I use 13x19 Super B Epson HWM, EM and Ilford Smooth Pearl. Are there 13" wide rolls for these paper? I don't think there is one for EM.

Thanks.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: kenstrain on October 03, 2005, 03:46:04 pm
Re stitching with Hugin.
I, normally, use PTassembler with autopano and enblend.  This thread prompted me to revisit Hugin (which was essentially functionless when I last tried some time ago). Now with the panotools stitcher selected (and autopano and enblend) it is (quelle surprise) equivalent to PTassembler.  The "nona" stitching option was faster and in 2 out of 3 tries essentially equivalent in terms of goodness of fit.  
That is significant as the panotools based options were previously superior to anything else (and the differences in GUIs frankly trivial).  Has someone compared the "nona" engine with panotools, in more depth?

Ken
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: BryanHansel on October 04, 2005, 10:46:57 am
Quote
but will be stitching 4000dpi 35mm scans to print on my Epson 1280 and 2200. Would appreciate you comments on stitching similar resolution images with Hugin.
You shouldn't have a problem with that.  I've stitched scans from 35mm.  It always seems slightly harder than digital, but it will work just fine.  I have a five image print from 35mm hanging on my wall.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: woody2801 on November 14, 2005, 04:56:31 pm
I have like many of you, been trying to find a perfect solution to stitching panoramic images.  For me cost is an option as I am a poor student!

So far I have been hugely unimpressed with photomerge and whilst the stitching of arcsofts panoram making software is good, the blending aint!

So far my best results have been acheived using the method as described by Michael on the website and manually doing it in Photoshop. The only bind is that it takes hours to do it well.

About to tryPanaVue image assembler.

Hopefully it's going to make it much better.

Interested to hear people's views on realviz, as lots of people in the Uk rate it highly. So I was a bit surprised at the seemingly negative response you guys gave it.

Andy
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 14, 2005, 05:11:52 pm
Quote
Interested to hear people's views on realviz, as lots of people in the Uk rate it highly. So I was a bit surprised at the seemingly negative response you guys gave it.

Andy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=51304\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andy,

I used not to be very impressed by Sticher 4.0, but 5.0 is top notch.

- Very fast to operate,
- very fact computations,
- perfect stitches even from images taken with less than perfect conditions (normal tripod ball head using the rotating base),
- export in PS format that enables you to retouch manually things that went wrong,

I don't quite see how something else could be better, it is just perfect per my first weeks of casual usage.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: Peter McLennan on March 17, 2006, 10:22:25 am
Finally having time to do some experimenting with new software, I installed Arcsoft Panorama Maker.  My first test, an easy four-image stitch with a 200mm lens was VERY disappointing.  While most of the image stitched fine, there were visible seams in the sky.  

Autostitch, for all it's JPG softness, did a perfect job with the same input.  Arcsoft's result would require significant work with the cloning tool to hide the seams.  The lack of virtually any controls over the process makes it impossible to trace the problem.

I've been stitching for years.  I'm not at all impressed with Arcsoft.  

Peter
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: kbolin on March 22, 2006, 01:01:46 am
Well I tried ArcSoft and PTGui... PTGui wins.  The ArcSoft had real problems blending the images I tried and PTGui only required some very minor superficial adjustments in PS.

I didn't try any others as I was happy with PTGui and stopped at that point.  Of course I'll have to look all over again later this year when I finally get a Mac but I'll come back here for guidance.

Thanks everyone for your help and comments.

Kelly
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: drew on March 22, 2006, 12:10:53 pm
Kelly,
I think you chose the right one. I changed over to PTGui 5.5 last year having previously used PTAssembler with autopano and enblend and I have to say that PTGui is better for three very good reasons.
1/ All the functions are rolled into one program.
2/ The user interface is far superior.
3/ It handles 16bit files for input and output.
It does an excellent job of warping, stitching and blending and so far there has been very little need to correct anything.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: lysdexic2 on April 10, 2006, 05:18:18 pm
I have had very good luck using three open source, free programs: autopan-gui, hugin, and enblend.  

I'll be the first to admit that they are not user-intuitive, but there are GREAT tutorials that take you through how to use them step-by-step.  Now that I know how to use them, I find the process very quick.  Hugin is great because you have the option to export into PSD with mutlilayers.  You can have it pre-make the masks or you can just have it align and rotate the images and you can blend them yourself.  I generally export to multiple tiff files and let enblend do the masking and color adjustment.  I find that 90% of the time I cannot tell that it was was a multi-stich image even when viewed at 100%.  The times where there are errors, I re-stich the image into Photoshop and get to work.

Just wanted to share the results from the free, "no-frills", student-friendly solution.  I think the programs work great together.  If anyone wants to know specific tutorials or if you have questions just let me know.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: DarkPenguin on April 10, 2006, 06:01:53 pm
I have never had that combo actually work.

So, if you have any instructions on how to make it work, let me know.
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: ddolde on April 10, 2006, 07:31:01 pm
Panavue Image Assembler is awesome !
Title: Panorama Stitching Software
Post by: plugsnpixels on April 16, 2006, 12:05:57 am
Hi all,

I've only recently tried my hand at using proper panorama software. Thirty years ago I was taping home-developed Instamatic prints together into strips (http://www.plugsnpixels.com/bhs/bhsmainstpano.html). As you can see from the entire sequence on that site, I also used 126 and 35mm scans and blended them in Photoshop years later, as well as those throwaway 35mm pano cameras from the mid-'90s that merely used a wide angle lens and physically cropped out the top and bottom of the frame.

More recently, I checked out all of the available options for Mac. Among the best shareware I found for auto stitching (where you drag your images and click once or twice, basically) were:

•Calico (http://www.plugsnpixels.com/calico.html)
•Autopano and DoubleTake (these two and any other commercial options aren't on my website because the developers did not respond to my inquiries yet, but they worked equally as well).

I tried the freebie options but they were like taking a math quiz! Might as well do the aligning and blending manually in Photoshop.