Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: michael on April 06, 2014, 06:16:36 pm

Title: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: michael on April 06, 2014, 06:16:36 pm
So – Sony has revealed the A7s, their latest Alpha series camera (or is it really a NEX?).

In any event, for still photographers it has a 12 Megapixel sensor with sensitivity to north of ISO 409,000.  That's actually quite remarkable, and I have no doubt that image quality will be stunning.

But for video aficionados the big news was that it records 4K. Yes, but not to an internal card; only to an external third party recorder (which don't actually exists yet, though a few will likely be announced at NAB this coming week). Also, the Sony's HDMI output is only 8 bit 4:2:2, while the GH4's is 10 bit 4:2:2.

Sorry Sony, but that just doesn't cut it. Even if the Panasonic GH4 wasn't shipping in less than 3 weeks, not recording 4K internally is an also-ran response to the competition. And, given that the A7s hasn't yet been given a release date or price, leads one to surmise that it's a rushed response to Panasonic's latest camera.

Sorry Sony, but unless there's something that you havn't yet told us, from a video perspective the A7s just doesn't cut it.

Michael
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: billy on April 06, 2014, 06:19:28 pm
Ya I am underwhelmed so far. But if it has 14 stops of DR and great AF during video then I might be into it.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: michael on April 06, 2014, 06:37:01 pm
14 stops of DR?

I haven't seen that spec. It has 14 bit raw output for stills, but that's something else entirely, and not uncommon in quality stills cameras.

Michael
 
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Vladimirovich on April 06, 2014, 09:04:24 pm
Sony 50 Mbps and Panasonic 50 (2K, 4K), 100 (2K, 4K), 200 (2K) Mbps... am I missing something ?
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: michael on April 06, 2014, 09:19:36 pm
No, but Sony seems to be.

Michael
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: billy on April 07, 2014, 12:04:07 am
14 stops of DR?

I haven't seen that spec. It has 14 bit raw output for stills, but that's something else entirely, and not uncommon in quality stills cameras.

Michael
 
I just presumed it would have great DR like the Sony a7 and a7r, and that since it was optimized for video that the great DR of the stills would carry over to video. Just hoping, not theorizing.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: hjulenissen on April 07, 2014, 04:25:35 am
14 stops of DR?

I haven't seen that spec. It has 14 bit raw output for stills, but that's something else entirely, and not uncommon in quality stills cameras.
If the sensor is 14 stops and video reads out (practically) the entire sensor at full spec, one might assume that the number of "stops of DR" in video files is mostly a matter of the applied gamma slope (or, if any, tonemapping)?

I can see that having 10-bit luma would come in handy in some cases. I don't understand why video people are so eager for >4:2:0 and very high bitrates for "general" use. It reminds me of still-image-people always saving their JPEGs at "100% quality", when the flexibility gains that they are presumably after was lost the minute the raw file was developed _for_ jpeg, no matter the quantization level.

-h
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: bcooter on April 07, 2014, 05:11:25 am
No, but Sony seems to be.

Michael

I guess I should thank Sony for saving me some money, or maybe they cost me money, depends on your perspective.

I don't understand that company.   Other than the ability to shoot 4k eventually, the A7s has less specs than the gh3, much less the gh4.  50mbs, avchd2, vs. the gh3s 70 mbs in all intra.

for some reason they forgot it was mirrorless and didn't cover the whole frame with focus points and as usual with Sony, the 4k capability is tbd.

Now what they miss for studios like ours that shoots parallel productions is how many cameras the A7 series could have replaced.

If the two still cameras had better track focusing, covered the full frame they would have covered my Olympus for stills and my Canon 1dx series.   If the video A7s had the specs they also would have covered my Panasonic gh3s soon to be gh4's.

So instead of two large cases I would just have one.

Sometimes I think Sony looks at the competition, knows how to beat them then goes naw, if we do that we can't sell the next A7 as quickly.

They really need to take a look at panasonic.  The gh3, gh4 aren't perfect and it's not the most unique looking industrial design on the planet, but if you've used a gh3 you get the feeling that Panasonic gave it all they could for the price point.  In fact they gave it more than anyone, with an interface that is one of the most intuitive made, rivaling analog cameras.

So Sony thanks . . . or maybe not.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: hjulenissen on April 07, 2014, 06:16:21 am
I am a bit surprised that they don't do 4k raw/"raw"/insane bitrates internally. Obviously, some outspoken people crave it. Raw files are the norm for still-images. I am confident that every step from the ADC and onwards could be solved by clever digital tech. I am not as confident in my understanding of image sensors and analog circuitry, but when you can do 4k through HDMI out, then the analog part should also work for internal storage. Even Sonys own Z2 cell-phone does 4k@30fps (no doubt at a compromise in quality, but still...).

So is the A7s for reduced cost professional video that would otherwise use VDSLR or Vm43? Or is it for "soccer-dads" with a new Sony 4k tv and (too) little content? I don't see the latter purchasing costly external storage, but then they are perhaps satisfied that their camera has a "4k compatible" sticker?

Personally, I won't touch 4k until I can have 60fps. But then, I am a "soccer dad" in this context.

-h
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: MatthewCromer on April 07, 2014, 09:29:39 am
The A7s is a full-frame sensor that reads almost the entire frame for video (a slight crop for 16:9, and a slight crop for stabilization) with no line-skipping. It has access to practically all of the full-frame lenses in the world for video use.

The GH4 is a slight crop of a micro 4/3 sensor, that does use line-skipping. About 1/4 the area. It too can use FF lenses, but at a 2x equivalence.

The A7s should have world-class dynamic range and sensitivity for videoing in the dark.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: michael on April 07, 2014, 09:58:41 am

The GH4 is a slight crop of a micro 4/3 sensor, that does use line-skipping...


That is factually incorrect. The Gh4 does not do line skipping. Like the A7s it reads the full sensor.

I would also add, that while some people find full-frame-stills 35mm format appealing for video, it is in fact closer to Vistavision in terms depth of field. The GH4's MFT, on the other hand, is closer to Academy cine 35mm. Film makers will be more familiar with the characteristics of these focal lengths, and also S35 lenses fit with full coverage. There are few actual cine lenses available that can cover 35mm frame width. Canon and Nikon FF still lenses can, of course, but are mechanically not ideal for film production.

In the end, and in the real world, the shallower DOF of the full-frame stills format is hugely challenging for film makers. And while the smaller camera sizes are valued for location shooting, many DOPs complain that they then need to add more light to be able to stop down enough to get manageable DOF. Shallow DOF is a two edged sword.

Michael




Michael
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Vladimirovich on April 07, 2014, 10:51:25 am
That is factually incorrect. The Gh4 does not do line skipping. Like the A7s it reads the full sensor.
GH4 sensor is capable to do 16mp (full 16mp sensor readout, all 16mp sensels) in 10bit (that's what ADCs on die do in such mode) resolution (and that is what goes out HDMI, 10bit... Sony does output 8bit) @ 22.5fps... 4K does not require 16mp naturally... now whether GH4 does line skipping in 4K mode (like skips every 3rd line ? that will be very odd) I do not know... I 'd assume it just does readout full cental part of the sensor that forms 4K image w/o any line skipping.

here are the official Panasonic sensor specs = http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/ds8/c3/IS00006AE.pdf

Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: MatthewCromer on April 07, 2014, 11:09:29 am
GH4 sensor is capable to do 16mp (full 16mp sensor readout, all 16mp sensels) in 10bit (that's what ADCs on die do in such mode) resolution (and that is what goes out HDMI, 10bit... Sony does output 8bit) @ 22.5fps... 4K does not require 16mp naturally... now whether GH4 does line skipping in 4K mode (like skips every 3rd line ? that will be very odd) I do not know... I 'd assume it just does readout full cental part of the sensor that forms 4K image w/o any line skipping.

here are the official Panasonic sensor specs = http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/ds8/c3/IS00006AE.pdf


Sorry Michael, looks like I was wrong about line skipping. Bad assumption guessing how Panasonic turns their 16 MP sensor into 8MP video.
 
I did more reading, from what I have been able to gather apparently both the Sony and the Panasonic crop the central area to generate 4K video (the A7s reads about 2/3 of the sensor area, the GH4 about 1/2 the sensor area).

I think the total video crop ends up being 1.15x for the Sony and 2.3x for the Panasonic (versus 35mm full frame).
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Michael Erlewine on April 07, 2014, 11:30:35 am
I won't name names, but in a private phone conversation with one company who has or had access to a GH4 (because they are producing something that will work with that camera), he explained that his techs tested and determined that the dynamic range of the GH4 was not what it should be. They were underwhelmed by the DR and he suggested I might well look for something else if that was important.

On another issue, those of us who want 10-bit ProRes, etc. are used to using off-board recorders to get it. No big deal.

My own hunch is that these larger photosites in the A7s will be a big deal and actually work. I come from a still camera background (Nikon systems) and noted that there was quite a lot of discussion that the Nikon D3 camera had larger photosites than the D3s, and that it made a real difference. This leads me to believe that Sony knows what they are doing to get us a flexible 1080p image. Instead of offering us 10-bit, they are offering us larger photosites, which will bring us something equivalent and special in its own way. I really look forward to seeing if this works.

The A7r is obviously a video camera for the most part, not a still camera.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Vladimirovich on April 07, 2014, 11:43:53 am
the Nikon D3 camera had larger photosites than the D3s
12mp D3 vs 12mp D3s and different sensel sizes ? really ? not D3x ? not better ADC off die, different CFAs, different microlenses, etc, etc - but different sensel sizes in silicone under CFA ? ... and prooflink is where ?
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Michael Erlewine on April 07, 2014, 11:50:17 am
I may remember wrong, and I don't have a link to share with you. But there were a lot of discussions as to the value of the D3 sensor having larger whatever you want to call them, and yes the D3x also was criticized in the same fashion.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: bcooter on April 07, 2014, 03:15:15 pm
Sony reminds me of those Dr. Evil skits where he puts his pinky in his mouth and say  "ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!.

You can just see the sony guys during a product video saying "Four K possible", and the trade press says, yea we've had that for years.   Then they say "Small Form Factor"  and the press goes, yea Panasonic already has that,  The "Autofocus?"   Yep panasonic covers the whole sensor with tracking, "Lenses?"  Uh yea they have olympus, Panasonic, Pansonic Leicas and manual focus Voights that go to f .95 . . but do you have touch screen focus and controls, a smaller xlr box for large hdmi support and can we preorder now?

Then Sony says but, but you can order it at our cool dedicated Apple like stores and someone in the back says, didn't you close all of those?

Mini Me turns off the live feed.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: MatthewCromer on April 07, 2014, 03:30:43 pm
Quote
Sony reminds me of those Dr. Evil skits where he puts his pinky in his mouth and say  "ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!.

It all depends on whether you want / need 2/3 of a FF sensor for video or a half of a micro 4/3 sensor.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: bcooter on April 07, 2014, 04:15:03 pm
It all depends on whether you want / need 2/3 of a FF sensor for video or a half of a micro 4/3 sensor.

The pansonic isn't realy half size of 4/3 at 4k it's the same width just not the same height.

Anyway since you asked.


Ok in all seriousness I want it all.

Or better put, I want the electronic camera companies (all of them) to stop fooling around.

1.   Touch screen focus like the gh3, tracking focus that covers the full frame without hunting like the gh3/ gh4.

2.   In camera stabilization like the olympus em-1

3.   xlr inputs with a good preamp, and a module like the panasonic that does conversion to dng and proress, without having to add another $4,000 box.

4.   All active lens mounts.   Every dslr autofocus lens with an active adapter.

5.  higher sensitivity that is above 1200, though I'll never need 400,000 iso.

6.  A dslr form factor where you can put your eyes to the viewfinder, not stand back and view and lcd.

7.  A base mirrorless camera and lens system that even with a separate body will track focus, tether and shoot detailed stills as well as a Canon 1dx.

8.  An approved list of kit, something like RED where everything from matteboxes, cables, in and out boxes, are either offered or approved.

9.  Built in NDs.

10. Fast lenses.  None of this 2.8 stuff or f4 in fact everything in T stops so we know that nobody is fooling with us.

11. An upgradable sensor.   I'm tired of tossing 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 grand cameras because somebody comes out with a new sensor.

12. Variable crops in the viewfinder.   Not red lines, no custom tape, but wysiwyg.  16x9 (though not my favorite format) should be the standard at all frame rates, from 120 to 24, because 16x9 is the standard for the web where 99% get's played.

13.  4 channel, pre amped sound with (drum roll please) wireless mic reception on 4 frequencies.  I'm tired of hanging stuff off the rig.  This can be an add on adapter, but make it work with standard Seinhauser transmitters.  I'm sure Seinhauser would step on board in a minute.

14.  wireless HD out for HDMI client viewing.  None of this ipad stuff that has a flaky wifi system, but real radio transmitter 2k out.

15.  If your panasonic, or sony, make monitors dedicated for this (see #14).  Jeez your trying to sell tv's make some production monitors that run of vlock, or anton bauer, are wireless and mount or handhold easily.

16.  Once again, an approved list of third party rails, dovetails, arms, mounts.  (see RED).    I have cases of 15mm and 19mm rods and fittings that never seem to fit anything new, without buying more stuff that won't fit anything new in a year.

17.  A standard dnx, proress or dng format with approved video cards for color grading.    Walk into adobe, or someone and redesign a coloring plug in that works on a suite in the NLE timeline.    No round tripping, no transcoding, no spinning wheels and graphic cards that will work with thunderbolt macs and don't require an 8x lane.  I don't know how to do this but maybe 2 4x in a box, but something that speeds up grading and is more intuitive.

19. Most importantly a film like look.   See RED and Arri.   None of this over smooth 5d3 look or clumpy noise in the shadows.   

20.  All lenses should have the same front diameter to make lens changes fast.

21.  FAST long lenses.    We don't use them everyday, but a long lens gives huge importance to a piece, so how about a 200, 300, 400 and 600mm equivalent at f 2.8 constant. 

22.  Charge me for it.  I don't expect everyone to have the same needs but as the needs change, so do the modules.   I'm amazed that if I trick out a 5d3 or an gh3/4 I spend twice the money of "stuff" than I do on the camera.   I thought the camera industry was in the dumpster, so partner with someone, turn a profit and get it on the shelfs.

23.  Forget #19 being most important.  Most important is have the basics on the shelf the moment you announce.   Stop this let's announce something so the other guys don't get a sale and don't expect your users to be your beta testers.

24.  Keep the camera lightweight.   A dslr form factor that you build up and can't see through the viewfinder is silly.  Make it tall, not long, like a big motor drive on the bottom.

A smaller form factor makes everything cost less, work faster, gives you more time to create. 

IMO
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: MatthewCromer on April 07, 2014, 04:49:28 pm
The pansonic isn't realy half size of 4/3 at 4k it's the same width just not the same height.

The GH4 sensor is 16MP, only half the pixels are used by 4K (8-9MP depending on which flavor of 4K you are recording).

The A7s sensor is 12MP, only 2/3 of the pixels are used by 4K video (8MP on the flavor of 4K Sony supports).

Part of the reason for the crop is the change of aspect ratio from 4:3 or 3:2 to 16:9 or wider.
Part of the reason is to support stabilization, at least on the A7s.

The rest of your list is some good ideas...
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Telecaster on April 07, 2014, 05:24:44 pm
I think the total video crop ends up being 1.15x for the Sony and 2.3x for the Panasonic (versus 35mm full frame).

I would suggest using 16:9 Super 35 (roughly 24x13.5mm...it varies a bit by brand) as the standard format here. 135 is but a minority player in motion as BC notes. Thus the Sony's video format is larger than standard, not a crop of it. What is the GH4's video format size...something like 15x8.4mm, yes? A crop from Super 35 but larger than Super 16.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: JB Rasor on April 08, 2014, 03:14:45 am
I am a little reluctant to jump in here, as I am a very new videographer, and only have a smidge of knowledge with respect to the overall tech specs of videography.

However, as far as the A7s is concerned, I'm under the impression that with no pixel binning at 4k, recording to the Atomos Shogun in a 10 bit 4:2:2 ProRes wrapper, (or Cinema DNG raw...I don't know if the A7s or GH4 is capable of that or not), and with SLog2, the grading and pushing of the 4k video out of the 7s shouldn't be an issue. Or am I entirely mistaken?

It appears there is a great deal of flexibility with the A7s, albeit with a woraround solution...but a pro videographer or filmaker is going to use an external recorder shooting 4k anyway. Also, wouldn't 4k be able to downsample to 4:4:4 10 bit 1080p? Just my humble thoughts.

I like the idea of the A7s, but I'm definitely torn between it and the GH4 for pro video work.      
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 08, 2014, 05:38:41 am
Sorry Sony, but unless there's something that you havn't yet told us, from a video perspective the A7s just doesn't cut it.

Michael


Michael, most sensible videos sequences require a wide, a medium and a CU.

Simply it is great to work with a lens about 24-105 (full frame)

And that is where Sony comes into play. Full frame. Our lenses work.

As for cinema being based on S35 - of course that is true, but it also based on cine lenses like 18/1.8 - not a lens most of us own, but entirely replicated by somthing like a 24 2.8 on a fullframe camera.

Personally I use an old manual nikkor 28-85 enjoying the tactility of 'real focus' and the possibility of using this 'properly' is a huge excitement.

The panny format requires zoom lenses that don't exist or overpriced plastic, no character, fisher price fly by fire focus horror stories.

Primes? Well when working with cameras that have no ND onboard personally I find primes really annoying.

Bottom line. I think the GH4 will be technically better but the Sony will be more fun to use.

I have a technically good and no fun to use camera (Sony F3) and feel that getting the sony will be more fun than the GH4 :)

Fun is important, because the images are better (content wise) when you are having fun.

Additionally cost wise the GH4+ a speedbooster and/or a MFT zoom is more expensive than the Sony.

This camera may replicate the initial joy most of us had with the 5d2 with a few less of the gotchas. Fantastic.

S
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: bcooter on April 08, 2014, 07:27:59 am


Bottom line. I think the GH4 will be technically better but the Sony will be more fun to use.


I'm not a fan boy of anything, so cameras work better for me than others and like I said if the Sony hit all the points I need I'd go that way . . . if the file "looked" cinema like.

Personally, I think all motion cameras should have a super 35mm or something close format, just because it's a standard, you can think in those numbers rather than a 14 is a 28 X .3.

I understand the technical reasons but that doesn't mean I like them, though it won't stop me from buying two gh4's, because the 3's opened up our lifestyle work like no camera ever has.

Though for me and this isn't to compare against the Sony, I know the gh3's I use are really as you say fun, because they work in a form factor I'm used to and with practice autofocus like nobody's business.

When I get my gh4's I'll test them, but would bet that I use them as 2k 10 bit 422 cameras more than I'll ever use 4k,due to the 200 mbs data transfer,  but that's just a guess because they aren't out yet.

I do have to give credit to all the companies that are coming out with these smaller form factor cameras.  I simply love my olympus omd's for stills, can't imagine not having them and am quite use to the 2x crop.

This simple little still shot was with an em-1 at 1250 of a second F 2 or less, with very scrimmed down 575 hmi.  I also shot the same image with my Leica s2 and of course the depth of that file far outstipped the olympus, but the olympus was sharper in movement due to shutter speed and shoots very pretty.
(http://russellrutherford.com/yel_vs_skirt_oly.jpg)

I'm not knocking Sony but I think they disappoint when it comes to their lower end cameras.   There is always a gotcha and I've never understood it because I doubt if any company has the technical ability of Sony, no company seems to intentionally hold back like Sony does.  

Sony's a7 cameras aren't a new idea, but a good idea, though I'd love to see them not knee jerk.   Olympus has a hit with a retro style omd and Sony tries a one up on the A7(R), then panasonic announces a good priced 10 bit 422 4k and Sony announces 4k, though with less specs.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on April 08, 2014, 08:13:14 am
BC...one can't argue with you when you post beautiful images of pretty women! By the way, was the modifier a Para?

I like the A7s, and feel it is better than the GH4 based on what I've read and seen so far. Reasons:

Full frame sensor, lower noise and the ability to take any lenses made for full frame
APS-C mode that can shoot 120 fps in 720p (and 4K if you want it), so you can take all kinds of cinema lenses too
Low light - clean until 12,800 ISO and I'm pretty sure usable till ISO 20,000 - that kind of performance matches the C300
Ability to add XLR inputs via a Sony accessory
8-bit 4:2:2 4K output - which is perfectly acceptable. Those who crib about 8-bit vs 10-bit have never seen the difference, and never will - because there isn't any in practical terms
HDMI output going to the Atomos Shogun, which has a 1080p 7" monitor for $2,000 - shooting Prores HQ
Synchronization - I want to know more about this, but it seems interesting
Full video features, the ability to change levels just like video cameras
SLog2 mode - which looks super impressive
Stainless Steel mount (in this respect it is different from the A7 and A7r) that can take heavier lenses
Price inclusive of Shogun - $5,000 - a full frame 35mm sensor camera that can shoot log 4K up to 30 fps and has a tiltable screen, 7" monitor and full LUT, video and audio capability.
It's better than the 5D3, and that's saying a lot for a camera that might come in under $3000.

The most exciting camera this year (so far) is the AJA CION. Now this looks like a winner. 4K up to 60 fps internally and 120 fps with a recorder, only $8,995 (Shit, that's what I paid for my ProHD six or seven years ago and all I got was 720p 1/3" CCD!!) and comes with a PL mount, though they are open to people who want to replace it with other mounts.

There's a lot of animosity at NAB this year (judging by the videos I've seen) against BMD. But then again, they have earned it.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: michael on April 08, 2014, 08:43:36 am
I suppose it comes down to the type of shooting that one does.

I agree with Cooter, many people will be using the GH4 as a 2k 10 bit 422 device. Which can be done in-camera; no external Shogun needed.

As for saying that adding an external recorder recorder is what most people will do, maybe not as many as thought. For many the GH4's 4K in-camera will be a compelling sell, both for its 2k 10 bit 422 capability but also for times where heavy grading isn't needed, but light weight, low bulk, inexpensive 4K is.

No doubt the A7s will be an interesting camera. I just think that it seems like a rapid Sony response to the GH4, rather than a well thought out competitor.

Michael
Title: DOF needs affect noise levels, and probably affect format choices
Post by: BJL on April 08, 2014, 10:20:00 am
Full frame sensor, lower noise ...
This low noise advantage is true only when one wants, or can accept, less DOF than is possible with the smaller format.  On the other hand, as soon as the smaller format gives the desired DOF (for example at f/1.4 in 4/3" format or f/1.9 in Super 35mm), the full 35mm format needs a higher f-stop to get the desired DOF (f/2.8 in my example) and so needs to user a higher ISO speed (about four times higher than with 4/3" and 2.2 times higher than with Super 35mm) and then it only gathers light from the subject at the same rate, so at the same shutter speed all formats have the same level of photon shot noise. Then you expect about the same noise levels in any of the formats, though experimental comparisons show that a larger format generally has a bit more dark noise, probably due to the larger photosites and longer signal paths.

So one important question in format choice is "does it cover my shallow DOF needs?".  I have never got the impression that even the smallest cinema 35mm formats (about 21mm wide) suffer for lack of shallow DOF options; I do not know how the slightly smaller 4/3" format (about 17mm wide) fares with the current lens choices (f/2.8 zooms, assorted primes around f/1.7 plus a few at f/1.4, f/1.2, and all the adaptor mounter options when MF is satisfactory.)

Of course, if speed boosters can be used, they greatly reduce or eliminate the minimum DOF and maximum low-light performance of the sub-35mm formats by giving the ability to go one stop faster.

Another quirky option has just been announced: JVCKenwood has announced that it will make 4K video cameras with Micro Four Thirds Mount but "Super 35mm" sensors (http://www.jvckenwood.co.jp/en/press/2014/04/press_140407.html).  Apparently the sensor is the Altasens AL41410C (http://www.altasens.com/index.php/products-49491/2014products-2/2014products-4), Altasens being a subsidiary of JVCKenwood, whose 4K output is about 21mm wide, so actually a bit smaller than Super 35.  My guess is that the plan is to use the MFT mount as a "universal recipient" of various cine-camera and APS-C still-camera lenses via adaptors, but maybe many MFT lenses could be used, by exploiting the somewhat larger-than-needed image circle that many lenses have.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Manoli on April 08, 2014, 11:26:55 am
I just think that it [A7s] seems like a rapid Sony response to the GH4, rather than a well thought out competitor.

So SONY produce

>the guts of the D800, a sensor later to appear in the A7r, a ground breaking sensor
>the sensor to drive the latest generation of MF CMOS backs, again a first
>the A7 and A7r, the first 24x36 ILCs
>now the A7s, apparently 3 years in the making, same sensor as the D4s, with 8 micron sensels and see-in-the-dark capability
>a rumoured A9, before Photokina, to fill the 'gap' in their line-up (and possibly your video gripes)

and you interpret all this to be a rushed response as opposed to a distinct (long-term) game plan.
Really ?


Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Kenneth Sky on April 08, 2014, 11:42:14 am
As a non-videographer this debate is starting to sound like pixel-peeping. One thing that Sony has put to bed is that the A7s is a hasty response to the GH4. They say this camera was developed alongside the A7 & A7r for the past 2 to 3 years. It appears to be targeted to a slightly different audience using a different philosophical if not technical approach. What can be bad about more choice?
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: michael on April 08, 2014, 12:38:02 pm
So SONY produce

>the guts of the D800, a sensor later to appear in the A7r, a ground breaking sensor
>the sensor to drive the latest generation of MF CMOS backs, again a first
>the A7 and A7r, the first 24x36 ILCs
>now the A7s, apparently 3 years in the making, same sensor as the D4s, with 8 micron sensels and see-in-the-dark capability
>a rumoured A9, before Photokina, to fill the 'gap' in their line-up (and possibly your video gripes)

and you interpret all this to be a rushed response as opposed to a distinct (long-term) game plan.
Really ?


Unless you're a Sony shareholder, or employee, there's no need to take this personally. They produce some great cameras, they produce some great technology. It's just that in my view the A7s isn't what the Doctor ordered.

No in-camera 4K is a fail. No in-camera 10 bit is a fail. A comparatively low bit rate codec is a fail.

For the still photographer wanting ultra-high-ISO, great. But the camera was introduced at a major broadcast video products show, along with other pro-level Sony video products. In my view it fails to meet those needs, and fails to compete adequately with the GH4.

And if you think I'm alone in this view, visit some of the pro video / cinema web sites. By comparison, I'm being gentle with Sony on this one.

Michael
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 08, 2014, 01:13:00 pm
Both of these cams, really have not 'grabbed' me.. I'm disappointed in that.

They could therfore be said to be lacking.

But then I dont know 'what camera I want'

Personally im feeling the need for a 'fun' camera .. that probably does not involve an external recorder

and also Id like a 'mount' (car mount/Movi) that would be a 'production tool' and neither really work for either.

Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Manoli on April 08, 2014, 01:26:41 pm
Unless you're a Sony shareholder, or employee,

I'm none of the above, just a retired investor living on a pension ... *

In my view it fails to meet those needs, and fails to compete adequately with the GH4.
And if you think I'm alone in this view, visit some of the pro video / cinema web sites. By comparison, I'm being gentle with Sony on this one.

I've read your posts and all those above, including cooter, Sareesh and Morgan. Enough to convince me that there are going to be two sides to this coin. The only continuing criticism that, IMO, holds validity is when cooter complains that Sony have mastered the fine art of keeping their customers on a hook and compelling/tempting them to stay on the upgrade wagon.

The observations are valid - from your perspective, not necessarily as important from others' perspective. The point I queried was your interpretation that this was a knee jerk response to the GH4. I don't see anything in Sony's strategic planning that I'd call a 'rushed response'.

... there's no need to take this personally.

I don't.
Neither should you.

M

--
Edit:  * obviously a quote from a well known movie, not to be taken literally.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: tho_mas on April 08, 2014, 03:48:50 pm
No in-camera 4K is a fail.
I do agree.

Quote
No in-camera 10 bit is a fail.
I agree with Sareesh Sudhakaran here... in-camera-10bit is really not needed as long as the camera produces a banding-free image (and the A7s sure will produce a very clean image - comparable to camera-JPEGs I assume). Color Correction in post production should be done in high bit, though. But here you need 16bit ... 10bit is too low for heavy grading.

Quote
A comparatively low bit rate codec is a fail.
I disagree. When the sensor produces very low noise there's no need for high bitrates. And the sensor of the A7s wil certainly show extremely low noise.

Title: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: davidgp on April 08, 2014, 03:51:17 pm
For me this is just Sony being Sony, they have the best CMOS sensor at the moment (just see Nikon or Phase One buying to them), but lately they seem to have some really interesting products with a critical flaw that stops them from being perfect.

You have the nex series, great sensor, great size, horrible menu system.

You have the a7r, great camera, and one that many landscape photographers with limited money resources and heavy investment in canon glass look at it, but the shutter shake problem make me think twice before buying one.

Now you have the a7s, looks like a great camera but they went cheap in a critical point, the possibility of recording at 10bits at 4:2:2 in the card... Even if it is full hd instead of 4k. And I suspect they could do it, maybe with a better processor (could implied a bigger size) or with just a firmware upgrade.

Of course, in the middle they made great products, like the A7 and the other full-frame one, with the fixed 35mm lens...

I'm thinking to start to get myself into video, the gh4 looks like the camera to go, problably at the beginning  just full hd, but with the possibility of 4k in the near future... Anyway... No rush at the moment, just seeing how the market evolves...
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: bcooter on April 08, 2014, 04:58:48 pm
For me this is just Sony being Sony,

This is the main point of everybody's post.  It's not that Sony didn't offer features because they can't, it's that they didn't offer features because it would probably break into upmodels they want to protect (that last part is just a guess).

Also Sony loves to announce and  make people wait forever, see fs700 4k.

Sony makes great sensors, funky cameras.   The A99 black outs when shooting in fast sequence and doesn't track focus.   That's not a Canon Nikon competitor.

The A7(R) can't seem to work well with Canon or Nikon autofocus lenses, though a company like Leica with a lot less recourse can make my contax lenses and H series blad lanes work on an S2 just as well as their own native bodies, actually better in regards to the contax.

Panasonic has it's issues, the gh4 isn't close to perfect and given they crop the sensor for 4k they should have olympus style stabilization, so Panasonic isn't perfect.

But their damn good.  I've deeply graded the gh3's 420 files and as long as you watch the highlights, build your own profiles, it shoots way above it's specs.  We finished a series of videos that totaled 180 minutes in final form and 90% of the lifestyle footage is the gh3's and we carried three reds, two canons and one sony.  The sony fs100 never left the bag.

But I know what my market is asking for which is stills and motion for multimedia projects and Sony isn't hitting all the basis, just some.  I've listed earlier what they could do to let me put up three camera cases and go all Sony, which I would do if I really believed they'd get their soon, but  . . . just about the time they get close to the A7 series being up to spec, they'll probably have another mount, with their medium format chip and the circle keeps spinning.

Man do I wish Panasonic and Olympus would share tech.


IMO

BC




Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: michael on April 09, 2014, 07:56:56 am
It's not that we didn't reserve judgement because we can't; it's that we have so much more fun, piling-on with instant opinion and speculation than we would if we waited until there was a camera in our hands :-)

I blame them Internets!


Ya, you're probably right. Let's wait till the Russians invade the Ukraine before jumping to any conclusions about their probable intentions. (pointed irony alert).

Michael
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: chrisgibbs on April 09, 2014, 11:04:31 am
There are those of us who are still shooters (Canon 5D3) who really see the beauty in motion and crave to shoot it, but cannot see an easy way to achieve this as part of our daily job with Canon/Nikon.  No EVF & crappy in-camera  audio.  On first look the Panasonic is a perfect fit, but as Sam points out the "way the lens looks" below 85mm on M4/3 are very different.  The Sony maybe a better "compromise for a stills guy" who runs it as a primary (read: singular) kit.

With Sony we have the same "stills look" as we did with the Canon/Nikon and here are my observations.

1. Lens choices below 85mm are realistic
2. EVF for video (no Z-Finder or monitor required)
3. Audio options via the Sony multi-interface shoe are quite elegant
4. The XLR adaptor works exactly the same way as Sony Pro-Camcorders

I've got a ThinkTank ChimpCage on my stills belt, here's what's in it.

1. Sony XLR Adaptor with Sony ECM-MS2 Mic fitted
2. Olympus  LS-11 with Sound Professionals binauaral mics, Olympus Deadcat, earbuds, Rode PinMic & extension cords (all in Olympus pouch)
3. Sennheiser Radio Mic
4. Sony ECM-XYST1M Stereo Mic (very handy little mic that requires no battery)

Yes, that all fits into a ChimpCage and just pops on the belt of any ThinkTank bag!  This makes Video for someone like me "FUN" -- it's that moment when you're shooting portraits, you're having a good old chat and think "I should be recording this" and you reach in that ChimpCage and pop-on that "tiny" ECM-XYST1 Mic and hit the red button "AND KEEP LOOKING THROUGH THE VIEWFINDER!"  It's brilliant, what a great time to be involved in image making!

Cheers, Chris
Title: Re: DOF needs affect noise levels, and probably affect format choices
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on April 09, 2014, 12:14:29 pm
This low noise advantage is true only when one wants, or can accept, less DOF than is possible with the smaller format.  On the other hand, as soon as the smaller format gives the desired DOF (for example at f/1.4 in 4/3" format or f/1.9 in Super 35mm), the full 35mm format needs a higher f-stop to get the desired DOF (f/2.8 in my example) and so needs to user a higher ISO speed (about four times higher than with 4/3" and 2.2 times higher than with Super 35mm) and then it only gathers light from the subject at the same rate, so at the same shutter speed all formats have the same level of photon shot noise. Then you expect about the same noise levels in any of the formats, though experimental comparisons show that a larger format generally has a bit more dark noise, probably due to the larger photosites and longer signal paths.

A small note...video differs from stills in one respect - In video, we stick to (usually) a shutter angle of 180 deg, or 1/50th of a second. The ISO needn't be bumped that much. Secondly, noise reduction is greater in video, because the loss of resolution is acceptable, and desirable for various reasons.

Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on April 09, 2014, 12:23:39 pm
This is the main point of everybody's post.  It's not that Sony didn't offer features because they can't, it's that they didn't offer features because it would probably break into upmodels they want to protect (that last part is just a guess).

Also Sony loves to announce and  make people wait forever, see fs700 4k.


The F5/F55 are stellar cameras, and has had regular firmware updates as announced. They also have a 2014 roadmap. If you're looking for one camera that is un-Sony like, and can handle any type of production there is, the F55 is it.

As for the first point, which camera manufacturer makes just one product? Even Leica have multiple models for every price point.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Isaac on April 09, 2014, 03:18:22 pm
Let's wait till…

Let's have our fun, piling-on with instant opinion and speculation. It's not like anyone's going to come-back to these posts in a years time and audit them.

It's not like anyone's going to come-back in a years time and audit what Sony's pitch-man had to say about using the camera (Sony a7S interview with Kanta Yamamoto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT6Ui6rQI8k) -- Newsshooter).
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: BJL on April 09, 2014, 05:54:14 pm
It's not that we didn't reserve judgement because we can't; it's that we have so much more fun, piling-on with instant opinion and speculation than we would if we waited until there was a camera in our hands :-)
Some judgments require reviews or hands-on experience, but some limitations can be judged from specs alone. In the A7s vs GH4 comparison, some people can decide already how important it is to them
- to be able to record 4K video with just the camera and a lens (no add-on recorder), or
- to get the shallow DOF that large aperture 35mm format lens offer while Four Thirds lenses cannot, or
- to get the IQ advantage of a data rate of 100Mb/s or 200MB/s vs 50MB/s, or
- to be able to use 35mm still camera lenses without a heavy FOV crop, or
- to be able to use cine-camera lenses in formats like Super 35mm or smaller,
and so on.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: KevinA on April 09, 2014, 06:15:31 pm
I have a feeling the Sony will turn out to be very good, especially if the DR is as good as Sony hint at. One thing is for certain Canon might need to rethink the 1D C.
The solution for the 4K application Sony are promoting, is a screen and recorder mounted on the camera, expensive but looks a good idea and probably necessary for serious users. If you need 4k you probably are serious, so rigged up I believe it could be a little bit good. The low light on the promo video looks very good and will probably be the usp of this camera.
We can't write it off yet, it appeals to me more than the GH4, I don't know why but it does. It's also a camera that integrates into a range of cameras, if you have a A7r for stills the 7s makes sense.
I wonder what video camera Sony have in mind for the sensor, that could be the real choice for the videographer.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: KevinA on April 09, 2014, 06:49:55 pm
One other point. I've only got youtube to judge by on a Retina display, but I've liked the look of the Sony more than the GH4 so far.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 09, 2014, 08:11:35 pm
>now the A7s, apparently 3 years in the making, same sensor as the D4s, with 8 micron sensels and see-in-the-dark capability

What makes you think the a7s uses the sensor of the D4s?
- they have different resolutions,
- the sensor of the D4s is not a Sony design.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Isaac on April 09, 2014, 08:56:34 pm
Let me speculate too!

The work on a "video-oriented SLR with A-mount" that was mentioned last October (http://www.fotosidan.se/cldoc/sony-a7-och-a7r-tva-fullformatare.htm) was re-directed into Alpha 7s because E-mount is selling so much better than A-mount:

Quote
"At the press screening told Yoshiyuki Nogama to a video-oriented SLR with A-mount is going on. It will compete with the Canon Eos 5D Mark III and will have Ultra HD (4K). We guess that it is a further development of the Sony A99."

And 4k is external because they'd have an overheating problem in the small A7s body that they wouldn't have in the larger A-mount camera bodies.

That was fun!
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: hjulenissen on April 10, 2014, 05:03:54 am
- to get the IQ advantage of a data rate of 100Mb/s or 200MB/s vs 50MB/s, or
Except IQ does not equal data rate, so a theoretical comparision of two cameras based on bitrate is extremely difficult.

A common measure of encoder "goodness" is that it will provide reasonable quality/bandwidth trade-offs. A less good encoder may have higher bandwidth but lower quality. An encoder might relax optimization on quality/bandwidth in order to increase battery life (don't use expensive options), to increase compability (use legacy codecs), to make the files easier to edit (e.g. intra-only) etc.

-h
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: MatthewCromer on April 10, 2014, 09:39:48 am
Quote
- to get the IQ advantage of a data rate of 100Mb/s or 200MB/s vs 50MB/s, or

A JPEG from a Nikon D800 is going to be better IQ than a RAW image from a Canon G16.
Title: adequate bit rate can be necessary but of course not sufficient for adequate IQ
Post by: BJL on April 10, 2014, 10:14:53 am
On a 50Mb/s vs 200Mb/s limit: of course I was not suggesting that the bit rate alone measures image quality (any more than does MP alone, or the file size in MB sometimes used by stock agencies to very crudely set minimum quality standards), just that some people are likely to know that for some of their needs, 50Mb/s is an unacceptable limitation, leading to the need for some combination of excessive compression, reduced bit depth, lower frame rates, or whatever.  Like other single number measures, a sufficient bit rate can be in practice a necessary condition for adequate IQ in some use cases, but not a sufficient condition.

In the analogous case of pixel count: even though I have retired from the megapixel race at my current 16MP, I know that 8MP is not enough for some of my cropping needs, no matter how good the individual pixel quality is.
Title: Re: adequate bit rate can be necessary but of course not sufficient for adequate IQ
Post by: BJL on April 10, 2014, 01:23:42 pm
Is 12MP?
I am not sure, since as with many things, there is an ambiguous zone between "clearly not enough" and clearly enough" where no unequivocal yes/no answer is possible.  Anyway, an answer would not relevant to the point I was making, which is that there is some threshold below which the results cannot meet a particular standard of quality, so some people could have eel established needs for more than 50Mb/s: particularly since the compression options and encodings available are also known.

Since the original numbers were a factor of four apart, 50Mb/s vs 200Mb/s, let me revise my analogy to say that I know I will sometimes benefit substantially from having more than 4MP, and so I have a distinct reason for preferring a higher resolution like 16MP.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: MatthewCromer on April 10, 2014, 02:11:44 pm
Quote
Since the original numbers were a factor of four apart, 50Mb/s vs 200Mb/s, let me revise my analogy to say that I know I will sometimes benefit substantially from having more than 4MP, and so I have a distinct reason for preferring a higher resolution like 16MP.

You need less bandwidth when your source image / video has less noise in it.

It seems likely that the A7s will have far less noise than the GH4.
Title: Once again:when the same DOF is used, a larger format has no low noise advantage
Post by: BJL on April 10, 2014, 02:58:24 pm
You need less bandwidth when your source image / video has less noise in it.

It seems likely that the A7s will have far less noise than the GH4.
As I have already said: only when you can use the A7s with apertures so large that the DOF is shallower than can be attained with the GH4; as soon as you use a DOF within reach if the GH4 and its lenses, the A7s require about twice the f-stop and so four times the ISO speed to get equal shutter speed, neutralizing any "big sensor low noise" advantage.
Title: Re: Once again:when the same DOF is used, a larger format has no low noise advantage
Post by: Vladimirovich on April 11, 2014, 09:28:58 am
As I have already said: only when you can use the A7s with apertures so large that the DOF is shallower than can be attained with the GH4; as soon as you use a DOF within reach if the GH4 and its lenses, the A7s require about twice the f-stop and so four times the ISO speed to get equal shutter speed, neutralizing any "big sensor low noise" advantage.
specifically if you use manual focus then GH4 can be used with wide converter and "2 stops" will go to just "1 stop"
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Manoli on April 11, 2014, 12:24:09 pm
Sony A7s: Low Light Demonstration (ISO 1600 to 409600)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XgbUgNiHfXM

Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Michael Erlewine on April 11, 2014, 12:42:06 pm
That video showing the low-light capabilities of the A7s is amazing.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Morgan_Moore on April 12, 2014, 04:23:29 am
Rolling Shitter not looking too good on the Sony.

Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: bcooter on April 14, 2014, 09:44:05 pm
These cameras are prosumer video and there is always going to be a glitch.  Either overheating, or lack lower iso, or heavy compression.

But the issue with the Sony is the UK prices equates to $4,100 U.S., probably another 2 to 3 for the 4k recorder so its a 7 grand camera, not that the gh4 is cheap by the time you get to 4k.

I haven't shot either the gh4 or the Sony, though I've had such great use and quality out of the gh3, the gh4 will be one of the few cameras I'l buy as soon as it hits the shelf.

The Sony,I'll give it a few more versions before I open my wallet and by then, there should be some more interesting equipment.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: KevinA on April 29, 2014, 09:26:49 am
These cameras are prosumer video and there is always going to be a glitch.  Either overheating, or lack lower iso, or heavy compression.

But the issue with the Sony is the UK prices equates to $4,100 U.S., probably another 2 to 3 for the 4k recorder so its a 7 grand camera, not that the gh4 is cheap by the time you get to 4k.

I haven't shot either the gh4 or the Sony, though I've had such great use and quality out of the gh3, the gh4 will be one of the few cameras I'l buy as soon as it hits the shelf.

The Sony,I'll give it a few more versions before I open my wallet and by then, there should be some more interesting equipment.

IMO

BC
Is that price official? I've not found a price quote anywhere yet.
Still only the youtube stuff to go on, but so far I think the Sony looks a lot better than the Gh4, especially the low light looks wonderful. I might get one for low light stills.
I might take the plunge and dump my Canon gear for the 7r and 7s, then I remind myself what a total waste it is buying cameras these days, so I might not.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Hywel on April 29, 2014, 04:33:16 pm
Because?

Because the tech is changing so quickly that it is hard to recoup the investment before the camera is completely overtaken, maybe?

I look at the footage from my AF100 and 7D and compare it with the footage from more recent cameras and they really don't hold up very well. Hell, the 2.7K from my GoPro looks as good as the AF100 in bright light, and it cost less than 10% of what the AF100 cost me just three years ago. An iPhone shoots comparable footage in decent light. I know, ergonomics, ND, XLR, blah blah but eventually the numbers game becomes overwhelming. (Who is still buying SD equipment?)

We're in the "explosion" phase of video camera development that we went through a decade or so ago with stills, where camera generations came by every 18 months and demolished the generation before: 3.1 megapixels became 6 became 12 became 22 in a few years. We're out of the mad phase for stills cameras now, but just getting into the steepest part of the curve for video.

New video cameras are pushing to 4K and beyond. I'm a great believer in oversampling for image quality, so I definitely like shooting 4K to deliver in 1080p.

A few have in-camera RAW, or separate channel compressed RGB (eg RED, GoPro) or really good latitude (eg Arri, BlackMagic, REd Dragon) or stunning low light performance (Canon C300).

A few have XLRs and ND filters.

NOTHING has good ergonomics yet, apart from maybe Arris which lag behind on resolution. I know resolution isn't everything, but in a few years' time, those 1080p Arris are going to be as redundant as an SD camcorder, because everyone is going to be used to shooting 4K+ oversampling (even for HD delivery - same way no-one shoots with a 3.1 megapixel sensor stills camera any more, even for the web).

So... is it actually worth buying a video camera at the moment?

Obviously, if you don't have one and you need one, yes.

But I'm not sure it is worth paying big bucks for anything right now. I'd spend on glass and grip and buy a cheap-ass camera, same as I told people to do in the mad phase of stills camera tech explosion.

About the only thing that's got some future proofing is RED, and that's only because they were a bit ahead of the tech curve so it'll be a bit longer until my Scarlet is totally left behind and outshot by a sub-£1000 camera. Arri do too because they did a really sweet job on a HD camera which was point and shoot for film guys, and that'll keep their cameras in service for a long while. Who doesn't love the Alexa look, after all? But Arri will have 4K cameras soon and the original Alexas are going to look old.

If you really have a need for top-flight tech, I'd consider hiring unless you shoot several days a week and you're sure you can pay off tens of thousands of pounds investment in a couple of years, because that kit's going to be obsolete as hell by the end of 2015.

  Cheers, Hywel


Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: billy on May 16, 2014, 03:45:39 pm
Price look around $2500. I'm getting one.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: EgillBjarki on May 20, 2014, 03:17:18 pm
I just ordered A7S, very excited about it. The Slog2 feature is a huge deal for me along with the ability of 120fps in special cases. ISO is a good plus, but that dynamic range is really what did it for me.

Not sure why so many people are so unhappy with Sony... Their 55mm lens is STUNNING, I really like my A7R so far, but it will not replace my Canon kit.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: Chris L on May 20, 2014, 09:00:09 pm
I pre ordered. BH Photo had it listed as 15.3 stops of DR but I don't think that was official. The low light sensitivity and 4k is a bonus, but the DR is what I am after.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: bcooter on May 21, 2014, 04:16:24 pm


Not sure why so many people are so unhappy with Sony... Their 55mm lens is STUNNING, I really like my A7R so far, but it will not replace my Canon kit.

I think you answered your own question . . . it won't replace your Canons.

I don't think people are necessarily unhappy with Sony as disappointed.

The A7 series could have been ground breaking, off the scale when you think about ti.

A smaller form factor system that one body shoots 35 mpx stills the other 4k video.

It's just like all Sony's there is a "what if".

What if the A7s shot internal 4k for smaller stabilizers and drones, what if you could crop into the frame and us PL mount lenses, what if it was at least 10 bit and not 8 bit which is really from  1994 not 2014. 
What if the xlr input module was mounted on the bottom for security and form factor not hanging off the side, what if it had stabilization, what if the lcd screen flipped out  and had touch screen focus, what if the focus points covered the whole sensor what if it shot a higher bit rate than 50 mbs  . . . well you get the idea.

The A7 has now kind of lost it's place as it's not head over heels better for stills than the a7s, probably not as good at video.the A7R seems like it produces a stunning still, but it has the same smaller focus coverage.

Though I haven't tried the a7s, I tested, tested and tested a gh3 and olympus em1, em5 next to the A7 and the image quality wasn't any difference, actually I believe the smaller sensor em1 did better stills, I know the gh3 better video.

I think the A7 series is just typical Sony.   It has all the basics covered but whether by choice, price point, protecting higher priced models, or just rushed to market, it's an almost there camera system  because an A7r and a A7s could replace three camera brands and three cases we carry for projects.

I think it's a great system, that will get better if Sony sticks with it and doesn't offer excuses.   They have the tech, they have the ability to build a smaller form factor camera that is quick to set up and shoot.

I will test it, hope the 420 8 bit shoots above it's weight class, hope alaising is down and no jagged stuff on horizontal lines like the A7, but I'd pay double if Sony would take the gloves off and build what the market is really asking for.

We're getting into smaller form factor cameras, that are easier to use.  It's not that we can't cover everything with traditional digital video 4k's that exist but they do require more light, heavier supports which essentially means lower cost production.

IMO

BC

Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: EgillBjarki on May 21, 2014, 10:17:50 pm
I think you answered your own question . . . it won't replace your Canons.

When a full frame sensor is put into such a small camera body, there are sacrifices. In this case, autofocus. Something I have no problem with when I desperately need to travel light, without loosing out on quality. With Sony, I do get much more resolution and dynamic range compared to Canon. This is a case of the right tool for the right job. Most of the time, that does end up being Canon for me.

We're getting into smaller form factor cameras, that are easier to use.  It's not that we can't cover everything with traditional digital video 4k's that exist but they do require more light, heavier supports which essentially means lower cost production.

That is exactly it, everything is getting smaller and easier to use. The A7 series is all about the form factor, being able to produce very good results in a compact powerful package.

I was very close to getting a FS700R. I am sure the A7S files will not be as good for grading compared to the 700, and it does have more options with slow motion. However, the form factor and price just make these cameras two completely different things.

I can see how the A7S does not fit into your workflow, even with the benefit of size and price. As you stated above, price is not a big issue for you, the file size is. Blackmagic surly does present a much bigger appeal for you.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: kirktuck on May 22, 2014, 02:41:14 pm
I just spent the last two days shooting food and various restaurant scenes at a restaurant here in Austin with the GH4. My fellow shooter usually uses a Sony f55 Cinealta with Zeiss glass. He was pretty smitten with the image quality of the files using the GH4's Cinelook D and the in camera application of a slight shadow/highlight adjustment. The focus pull via touchscreen was priceless and the ability of the Panasonic X lenses to deliver good stuff wide open was a good surprise. We did not shoot 4K. We shot 100 mps 1080p at 29.xx so we could take advantage of the VFR option. Very cool. We filled up 100 gb of storage and today we sit down to ingest and begin editing. What I'm seeing on my monitor is very good. The only place where something like the Sony might be a big competitor is in files where you must end up shooting over 800 ISO. You can barely see some crawl even at 400 ISO in dark areas of slightly underexposed scenes but by the time you get to 3200 the noise gets thick enough to make cutting together images shot at lower ISOs dicey.

A cold sweat moment looking for the microphone level control on the touch screen but no other gotchas. It's a very straightforward camera and over the course of our two days of ample shooting it's a pretty solid platform. Just thought I'd chime in.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: billy on May 22, 2014, 04:06:10 pm
The focus pull via touchscreen was priceless

Thanks for your solid input. Can you explain the above quote a bit further? Are you using Autofocus and selecting your focus point by touchscreen? If so, I didn't know any cameras can do that yet? Also, if using AF, how good is it for tracking a moving person that is off center?
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: michael on May 22, 2014, 05:55:17 pm
I'll chime in that, yes, the GH4 can refocus while filming by touching on the screen where you want it to go next. It really works very smoothly.

The best way to focus with people is face/eye detection. Not foolproof, but does a good job most of the time.

Michael
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: kirktuck on May 24, 2014, 03:03:19 pm
The touchscreen/focus pull/af is straightforward and easy to use. I use it in the AF-S mode and that way it goes from one locked focus area to another locked focus area. It's a little tougher to hit the screen and move the camera at the same time but it's a nice effect. Like a traditional focus pull on a moving camera.

Focus tracking is great in good light and, logically, less so in poor light. There is a dedicated focus tracking mode where one locks on by touching the subject on the touch screen and I've had success with it. I've had better luck on controllable projects (where you can do a rehearsal) by using lenses with manual focusing rings and just doing a pull from one mark to the next with moving subjects. Example, mark focus at X point and Y point and rack the focus as the subject moves from X to Y.

My only observation with the GH4 is that you do start to get a bit of noise at 1600 and above. I have a cure for that. It's called "lighting."  :)
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: bcooter on May 28, 2014, 06:14:13 am
The touchscreen/focus pull/af is straightforward and easy to use. I use it in the AF-S mode and that way it goes from one locked focus area to another locked focus area. It's a little tougher to hit the screen and move the camera at the same time but it's a nice effect. Like a traditional focus pull on a moving camera.

Focus tracking is great in good light and, logically, less so in poor light. There is a dedicated focus tracking mode where one locks on by touching the subject on the touch screen and I've had success with it. I've had better luck on controllable projects (where you can do a rehearsal) by using lenses with manual focusing rings and just doing a pull from one mark to the next with moving subjects. Example, mark focus at X point and Y point and rack the focus as the subject moves from X to Y.

My only observation with the GH4 is that you do start to get a bit of noise at 1600 and above. I have a cure for that. It's called "lighting."  :)

Completed over a year and a lot of terabytes with the gh3 and yes the autofocus and touch screen focus works well with planning and sometimes even quck lifestyle.

The camera is good, not pretty by any means and the gh4 doesn't help the looks with the YAGH thing.

The deal breaker of the gh4 is the 2.3 crop.  2x is a lot, especially since there is not a lot of wide lenses for this camera and no autofocus wide faster than f4.

The really beautiful constant zooms at 2.8 are useful, except at f 2.8 is like 5.6 in FF and for most work that's just too much focus.

The A7s is at least it has the benefit of throwing a cinematic focus without having to always go one lens longer than anticipated.

Granted the a7s is feature hobbled compared to the gh4, with no touch screen, small focus  coverage and no ability to shoot 4k without a recorder, but a larger frame helps, though why every video cam with eyes on any segment of the professional market should be around super 35mm or aps c, because that format has worked well for years and seems to be just the right mix of physcial size, dop, noise and obviously traditional PL mount lenses.

Don't get me wrong my gh3's were great and I preordered the gh4 but held back.

With video we're back to the 18 month game of the one upgrade at a time, thing we have with computers and previously still cameras.

I think we all know that Sony, or panasonic could pop out anything if they felt like it, including stabilization, touch screen focus and a one piece bottom module that converted to 10 422 4k and probably will, just like I'll bet panasonic comes out with a larger format sensor eventually because super 35 or aps c is about perfect for a cinema look.

Anyway, today we have what we have.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: billy on May 28, 2014, 02:46:32 pm
kinda off topic but now that the sony a7 series bodies have been out, is there a consensus with which EF lens adaptor works best? For AF with Canon lenses,  metering, focus confirmation with ZE lenses etc? For some reason I am trying to avoid metabones, I don't like the flat lens mount on bottom and prefer a cylinder shaped adaptor.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: andrew00 on May 29, 2014, 07:39:16 am
I tested the GH4, it's great, technically it's 90% perfect.

However, I felt the skin tones weren't right and the image had a clinical edge to it - I preferred video from my BMPCC even though the resolution was only 1080P.

Maybe the latter issue can be corrected with PP, but the former I could never really get to where I wanted it to. I felt that once you tweaked one area, i.e. the green channel which is way OTT by default, it'll affect the others too much.

So if there's one weakness in the GH4 I'd say, Imo, it's in the colour depth.
Title: Re: Panasonic's GH4 Has Nothing to Fear
Post by: bcooter on May 29, 2014, 05:15:48 pm
I tested the GH4, it's great, technically it's 90% perfect.

However, I felt the skin tones weren't right and the image had a clinical edge to it - I preferred video from my BMPCC even though the resolution was only 1080P.

Maybe the latter issue can be corrected with PP, but the former I could never really get to where I wanted it to. I felt that once you tweaked one area, i.e. the green channel which is way OTT by default, it'll affect the others too much.

So if there's one weakness in the GH4 I'd say, Imo, it's in the colour depth.


There was an earlier post about matching footage from a RED to the gh4 and yes it can be done, but with all the dslrs and video cams I've used they react differently in different situations.

In studio, with controlled lighting, I can make everything from a fs100 to the gh4's look like red footage as long as I add more fill light and are careful of ambient blowback.

In the real world under moving conditions, it's much harder if you want that filmic look.

The only answer is to become expert at resolve 10, or a few other grading suites and even then you'll find to exactly match takes many hours of post.

There is no free lunch.  If you want to throw background focus on a gh4, it's an all prime lens world as f2.8 on their zooms is way too much focus, especailly with a 2.3 crop.

If you want that kodak vision look where there is some slight built in noise to the subjects then it's a RED an Arri even a blackmagic, with the Arri and Red being dependable the balckmagic seems to come with wait until we fix it issues.

I just think these video cams look like video and people having been trying for 10 years to make all brands, makes, formats, codecs into a film like look.

To me the only reason to buy a gh4 is it's autofocus capabilties and the fact you can work a little under the radar.

But my view is get expert at resolve and that will solve a lot of mix and match issues, or just bite the bullet pay the fees and shoot everything on a RED or Arri.

IMO

BC