Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: Jim Gronau on January 09, 2014, 07:49:16 am
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I’d be very grateful for any guidance before I start buying components for my first build. By far the most demanding task I’ll use this computer for is processing photographs in Lightroom and Photoshop (CC). Images from my current camera can quickly grow to half a gig while being processed, and I may soon get a new camera that produces larger files. What I hope to achieve with this build is a system that will handle multiple large images quickly and efficiently for the next four or five years.
I don’t have a strict budget, but I do have a guideline: I’m willing to invest in a part if it yields significantly better results than a less expensive one, but I want to avoid spending a significant amount of money on insignificant performance improvements. For example, I’ve read that up to 1866, it’s worthwhile to invest in faster RAM, but that beyond that point, the difference per dollar falls off, so that’s the speed I’ve listed below. Similarly, I’ve read that Photoshop does very well with six-core processors, but I’ve picked the i7 4930K, rather than the i7 4960X, which I’m sure is somewhat better, but is also almost twice the price.
Comments on any aspect of the build would be very welcome. I also have two specific questions that I’ve been unable to find answers to in my web research.
I was hoping to populate half the DIMMs with a set of 4 x 8GB sticks now, and get another set in a year or two, for a total of 64GB. I’ve heard it’s not a great idea to mix memory, though, even if it’s supposedly identical. Does that mean that if I want to upgrade to 64GB in a couple of years, I’ll have to chuck the 4 x 8GB sticks and buy a kit of 8 x 8GB? If that’s the case, then would I be better off getting 8 x 4GB now, rather than 4 x 8GB, and getting an 8 x 8GB set when I want to upgrade to 64GB?
My other question is about SSDs. I have read all over the place that it’s good to put the OS and programs on an SSD. I’ve also read that SSDs make good scratch disks for Photoshop, and can be effective for other purposes (catalogues, previews, menus, etc.), as well, with Lightroom and PS. This is all new to me; in my current system, I have one small HDD for a scratch disk, and one big HDD for everything else. Can anyone suggest how many SSDs I should get, and what each should be used for?
Thanks in advance for your wisdom and patience!
OS
Windows 7 Professional (64-bit), SP1
CPU
i7 4930K
CPU Cooler
Noctua NH-D14
Motherboard
ASUS Rampage IV Black
Memory
DDRS-1866, 240 pin, 4 X 8GB:
G.Skill Ripjaws Z series (F3-1866C9Q-32GZH)
Storage etc.
2TB HDD:
Western Digital Black
SSD:
Samsung 840 Pro 256 GB (and maybe 128GB?)
Video Card
AMD Firepro W5000 2GB
Optical Drive
ASUS DRW-24B1ST
PSU
Cooler Master V1000 (80+ Gold)
Case
Fractal Design Define XL R2 Black Pearl
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I just built a new photo editing PC earlier in the year. I don't use Photoshop all that much so I scaled things down from what you have set out. Here are some observations. First, you do not need a 1000W PSU with the set up you are proposing. That much power is only needed if you are running multiple video cards so drop down in power. Personally I use Seasonic PSUs in all my builds and have not had any problems at all. This 650W Seasonic (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151088)will serve you well. It's the same one I have in my PC and it's absolutely quiet.
I think you might be overpaying for the CPU. Personally I don't think you will see a significant performance benefit from a six core CPU vs a quad core. You could save $200 by dropping down to a fast quad core like this New i7 Haswell CPU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116941). You would have to make sure to get a 1150 socket motherboard however and you could save some money there as well. With all the money you save you should be able to upgrade to 64GB RAM right now (though again I'm not sure about the performance difference between 32 & 64GB).
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I agree. I went with a 4 core CPU/mobo because limited benefit of more cores for Lightroom and Photoshop. But if you really want a lot of RAM then the workstation setup might be the right choice. Or if you plan on using it for video.
I would get the most amount of RAM you ever plan on using right away.
The Samsung 840 Pro seems like the best option. I suggest two SSDs, one for the system and windows temp, one for Adobe cache/scratch/work files (intermediate TIFFs and such). RAW files can live on HDD with negligible performance penalty. Adobe suggests one SSD is sufficient but you want to have some free space left on SSD for best performance. I made the mistake of getting too small SSDs so now I have added a third larger for work files (2x128 + 500).
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Thank you, Alan.
About the PSU, what you say jibes with what I've seen in other people's builds - contrary to the prescription I've seen in a couple of places that actual use should come to about 50 or 60 percent of the PSU's capacity. I will look at the Seasonic you mention.
I've heard that having more cores means less time waiting for blur and sharpening filters; that makes the i7-4930K sound awfully good to me - I wouldn't want to calculate how many hours I've spent waiting for those filters! But maybe the great increase in RAM would diminish those wait times a lot? I have no objection to saving money! I hadn't realized there was a new Haswell CPU available; I'll check it out - and 1150 socket motherboards.
Jim
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Thank you, Torbjörn. I'm thinking I just might get all the RAM right away, as you suggest. Assuming I can find it, that is. There is one place in town whose website says they have it (naturally, if it's on the web it must be true, right?); otherwise, nowhere in Canada (that's where I am) seems to sell it. I'd take either the G.Skill or the Corsair Vengeance Pro.
What combination of SSDs do you think would be best for each of the jobs you mention? One 256GB for OS and programs, and one 128GB for scratch disk, etc.? Or something quite different?
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Lightroom wants CPU, Photoshop wants RAM.
FWIW, I have an i7-3820 (quad, hyperthread, 3,6 GHz). It seems to handle Lightroom 5 well, processing big D800 files without ever maxing out all 8 virtual cores that I've seen. So at the moment there's still headroom there.
For Photoshop I have a feeling that CPU is way overkill (but maybe I don't do as much blur and sharpening as you do). But the 32 GB RAM I have installed gets eaten up on occasion, so go for 64 if you can.
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Forgot to post this nice LINK (http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Adobe-Photoshop-CS6-Memory-Optimization-182/) to the issue of how much memory and what speed you might need. They found that RAM speed wasn't as important as quantity. This may help in your purchase decision (they did not test over 32GB).
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Thank you, Torbjörn. I'm thinking I just might get all the RAM right away, as you suggest. Assuming I can find it, that is. There is one place in town whose website says they have it (naturally, if it's on the web it must be true, right?); otherwise, nowhere in Canada (that's where I am) seems to sell it. I'd take either the G.Skill or the Corsair Vengeance Pro.
What combination of SSDs do you think would be best for each of the jobs you mention? One 256GB for OS and programs, and one 128GB for scratch disk, etc.? Or something quite different?
That would be a viable solution if two 256GB drives is too costly.
I would not skimp on the system drive at least, that will be hard to replace later. If budget is tight you could use just one SSD as per Adobe recommendation: http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/optimize-performance-photoshop-cs4-cs5.html
The thinking with two drives is that Adobe has it's own memory management and PS always writes to the scratch disk, no matter how much RAM you have. Windows has it's own page file and could be writing to disk at the same time. With SSD this is less of a problem.
You can always add a second SSD later.
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Thank you, Alan.
About the PSU, what you say jibes with what I've seen in other people's builds - contrary to the prescription I've seen in a couple of places that actual use should come to about 50 or 60 percent of the PSU's capacity. I will look at the Seasonic you mention.
I've heard that having more cores means less time waiting for blur and sharpening filters; that makes the i7-4930K sound awfully good to me - I wouldn't want to calculate how many hours I've spent waiting for those filters! But maybe the great increase in RAM would diminish those wait times a lot? I have no objection to saving money! I hadn't realized there was a new Haswell CPU available; I'll check it out - and 1150 socket motherboards.
Jim
Hi Jim - Each time I get involved in one of these "what should I build" threads I swear never again. And here I am back again.. it must be a sickness. :o :o
The term you're looking for in regard to not overbuilding past what makes economic sense is "the point of marginal returns." This is the point where spending more money results in such a small improvement in performance that it doesn't make sense to proceed.
You didn't say what system you're coming from. When I help clients with a build this is the first thing I ask because it helps gauge expectations. For instance if they're coming from a more modern Sandy Bridge quad core and they're really complaining about performance I'll first look at their current system to see if there are any glaring discrepancies. If not we'll need to look at some serious changes. But, if they're coming from a 4-5 year old Core Duo.. man, I know they're going to ecstatic with most any modern system that fits their workflow.
Let's start. About power supplies: You're right, a power supply runs at it's best efficiency, produces cleaner power, and runs most quiet at its 50-60% point. Still, you want a bit of headroom. I also use Seasonic (when I'm not in Japan where I can find Sythe's), their platinum versions, which can actually be set so the fan won't come on under a 50% load. This by itself might make a few bucks more for a larger capacity power supply worthwhile. Still, I'd recommend the Seasonic 850 Platinum.
Next, RAM: It's very important every "bank" of RAM be made from the same type of RAM, same timing, etc.. and ideally the same manufacturer. Easy to do. But if a year later you want to add another "bank" of RAM, all you really need to do is find the same type and timing and things will work great. Ideally, get it all upfront if you can afford it. But you don't have to. More: From your usage requirements 32gb of RAM I think is more than adequate. That would be my recommendation.
Motherboards: When determining motherboards I ask the client if they plan on over clocking (not recommended for serious work) and how many of each port type they need. They might be able to get by with only 5-6 USB3.0 ports and no more than 6 drives and if they don't over clock, then a $150ish MB will do great. If you need a lot of ports and drives and must over clock.. then you'll need the $300-$400 MB's which are built for over clocking and have lots of ports. Why an Asus? I like them and I also like Gigabyte and at the moment Gigabyte offers better economics with more choice. Over clocking and how many ports?
CPU: Based on what you describe as your workflow, the Haswell 4770k will more than do the job. Easily, it won't even max the individual cores. The six cores are more money, require more power, produce more heat, and would largely go underutilized for 98% of its' lifespan. The Haswell being a newer generation that produces a lot less heat, is can do roughly 10-15% more work than Iivy Bridge. So it's really like 4.5 cores vs. 6 if those six are the slower Ivy Bridge. If you did a lot of video then I'd recommend the six core for sure and 64gb of RAM for sure. But you're using PS.
SSD's: I really like the Samsung 840 Pro you chose. Nice. Get one (at least a 256gb) for your system disk, and 128gb for a PS cache. If you're a LR user then match an SSD to about half the size of your catalog and task the PS cache to it as well..
Case: Look at what Lian-li offers. Lian-li is like the Rolls Royce of cases. Well worth the little bit extra when building a system.
HDD: 2tb? With 3 and 4tb so inexpensive.. consider going 3-4tb and consider getting two of them and putting them in a RAID1 using your MB to drive them. If one goes bad, the other takes over and you're saved from disaster.
Video card: Before we go there, can you tell me your video requirements? Is 10 bit important to you? You didn't mention video. I guess I'm not understanding why a workstation card when a much less expensive GTX card will do..
Good luck with your build.
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Hi Jim - Each time I get involved in one of these "what should I build" threads I swear never again. And here I am back again.. it must be a sickness. :o :o
Excellent points all but two minor quibbles.
Let's start. About power supplies: You're right, a power supply runs at it's best efficiency, produces cleaner power, and runs most quiet at its 50-60% point. Still, you want a bit of headroom. I also use Seasonic (when I'm not in Japan where I can find Sythe's), their platinum versions, which can actually be set so the fan won't come on under a 50% load. This by itself might make a few bucks more for a larger capacity power supply worthwhile. Still, I'd recommend the Seasonic 850 Platinum.
But he has nothing in his build that argues for this much power. I would agree with you if he was running two GPUs but he's note. SSDs and the other stuff are not big power drinkers. This system could be run at 450W without any problems at all.
Case: Look at what Lian-li offers. Lian-li is like the Rolls Royce of cases. Well worth the little bit extra when building a system.
I like Lian Li as well and have built some HTPCs with their cases. However, the Fractal Designs case he has chose is fantastic and stone cold quiet. I don't think Lian Li does as good a job building silent cases as Fractal does
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Excellent points all but two minor quibbles.
But he has nothing in his build that argues for this much power. I would agree with you if he was running two GPUs but he's note. SSDs and the other stuff are not big power drinkers. This system could be run at 450W without any problems at all.
I like Lian Li as well and have built some HTPCs with their cases. However, the Fractal Designs case he has chose is fantastic and stone cold quiet. I don't think Lian Li does as good a job building silent cases as Fractal does
1. If he was building a HTPC, a Micro, or some other space limiting platform then sure, 500-600 watts and he's running at 70% which is okay. But he's running an ATX case where there's plenty of space for a power supply, and for a few bucks more he has future expandability and at 850 he's below the 50% floor which will keep the fans off. At 400-500 the fans are coming on, and that's presuming Seasonic has that feature on their lower powered fans. And 850 will be less than an inch bigger on two of the dimensions, a few bucks more, and if later he wants to run another GPU or move to a more powerful one, add drives.. he won't be having power issues and wondering why.
2. Lian Li makes very good silent cases, but they're pricey. Mostly I just wanted to throw some more choice out there at approximately the same quality.
I'm tempted to recommend the new Gigabyte UD-7 MB (which would require the quad core Haswell 4770k) with thunderbolt.. It has the most possible USB3.0 ports, the most possible SATA3 ports, it's built like a brick house where the foil runs and power regulation is concerned.. very nice board. But $400.. Might be worth it to him though if TB is important.
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I'm tempted to recommend the new Gigabyte UD-7 MB (which would require the quad core Haswell 4770k) with thunderbolt.. It has the most possible USB3.0 ports, the most possible SATA3 ports, it's built like a brick house where the foil runs and power regulation is concerned.. very nice board. But $400.. Might be worth it to him though if TB is important.
The only downside to this board is the price.
I am in the process of putting together a new system with this very motherboard.
Tony Jay
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The only downside to this board is the price.
I am in the process of putting together a new system with this very motherboard.
Tony Jay
It is pricey. But currently it's a one of a kind mother board. Still.. ::)
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I see an Asus with Thunderbolt2 for about 100 cheaper (ASUS Z87-DELUXE/QUAD), at around 330. Is the Gigabyte better?
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I see an Asus with Thunderbolt2 for about 100 cheaper (ASUS Z87-DELUXE/QUAD), at around 330. Is the Gigabyte better?
Hard to know.
I think one would need to compare all the specs but obviously the chipset is the same.
Apart from the Thunderbolt 2 ports the gigabyte board offers ten USB 3 ports - this combination would be almost irresistable to anyone doing high-end digital/video editing work with lots of copying and backing-up to multiple EHDD's, not to mention the initial downloading.
Tony Jay
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I see an Asus with Thunderbolt2 for about 100 cheaper (ASUS Z87-DELUXE/QUAD), at around 330. Is the Gigabyte better?
They are both very high quality boards. Four things stand out as significantly different imo:
1. Gigabyte utilities and drivers are slightly more refined and trouble free. Gigabyte also updates drivers faster. With that said, customer service on both is.. well.. frustrating at times.
2. Gigabyte has significantly more USB3.0 ports
3. Gigabyte has significantly more SATA3 ports.
4. (some of you might want to put your hands over your eyes before I continue) The Gigabyte board will work with a Hackentosh build.
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I see an Asus with Thunderbolt2 for about 100 cheaper (ASUS Z87-DELUXE/QUAD), at around 330. Is the Gigabyte better?
The only folks I know that have done some comparisons here are Puget Systems who do boutique PC builds. They prefer ASUS motherboards. I've used both and the only issue ever experienced was a bad DVI port on a mini-ITX Gigabyte board for HTPC use.
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I built a new pc using the Asus tb2 board in November/December (black Friday deals on componenets). Thoroughly happy with the results and have not had any issues at all. The system has been rock solid to date. I have yet to use the Thunderbolt connection however as that was for future storage. Build included i7-4770k processor, 32 gig ram, 500g ssd and a pair of hard drives in raid configuration. I used an Asus GTX 760 video card and Asus Blu-ray writer just to maintain consistency with manufacturers. I'm not an expert at this stuff, but the instructions were good and everything worked right off the bat. The Asus board has a digital readout that can be referenced in their manual to let you know of any problems and where to look. Quality was top notch. If you want to overclock (I don't now, maybe down the road), Asus has a switch on the motherboard for 2 levels. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this combo to others. I recognize thunderbolt 2 as a feature that I would want soon, so why buy similar without this feature.
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First, thank you all for your posts, and please accept my apologies for not responding sooner; since my original post, I've spent most of my time in bed with a seasonal bug (which I do not recommend!). It was really gratifying to return to the world and find this great debate had been going on while I was out of the picture.
I haven't made any final decisions yet; I'll be pondering all your advice carefully before I do that. Meantime, I should explain a couple of things, maybe, that I didn't mention in my original post because it already seemed way too long.
First, fwiw, I picked the ASUS motherboard in part because it supports the CPU I wanted, but also because it has the capacity for 64GB of RAM, and lots of USB 3 and SATA 6GB/s connections, and (thanks for reminding me, Miles) it has a "degug LED" to tell you what you did wrong if you're a newbie builder like me.
Next, about the GPU: yes, Steve Weldon, the explanation for a card many people are questioning is 10-bit colour. I don't have it yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if I popped for a 10-bit monitor in the next year or so, and I'd hate to have to buy a new GPU to go with it! Meanwhile, I take it there's nothing actually wrong with the Firepro W5000 - other than the price?
RAM: my assumption was that 32GB would be enough for the time being, but as my files get bigger and/or Photoshop gets hungrier, I'll probably want 64GB. The only reason I was thinking it would be good to postpone the purchase of the second 32GB was that in a year or two it might be cheaper (on the other hand, I suppose, the line I buy initially might not be available any more at that point).
Oh, and thanks to everybody who mentioned Lightroom, which I keep forgetting I'll be trying to learn as soon as I get this build up and running. I don't suppose I have to, but thanks to Adobe, I'm paying for it anyway, so I may as well. Would the ideal be one SSD for OS and programs, one for a scratch disk, and one for LR catalogues? Or would that be excessive? Maybe I should make that my final (for now) question; how many SSDs, how big, do you all use for PS/LR?
Thanks again!
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one SSD for OS and programs, one for a scratch disk, and one for LR catalogues? Or would that be excessive? Maybe I should make that my final (for now) question; how many SSDs, how big, do you all use for PS/LR?
Thanks again!
Jim - You are being overly rational about all this.. :) I can't decide if you're paying too much up front for what you don't yet need, or saving money in the long run. Perhaps both.
I'd get a 256gb Samsung 840 pro for your system/programs and a 128gb Samsung 840 pro. You can set the 128gb SSD up as BOTH a cache for PS and a LR catalog.. and the only time you'll be taxing both at the same time is if you have LR and PS open at the same time and are actively working on an image. This only means you'll have two active files on the disk at idle.. Until you use one. If you are running an intensive action on PS you're accessing the SSD. If you're moving through the LR catalogue you're accessing the SSD. So, if you start an action, flip over to LR and start moving through the catalog.. you're now accessing both at the same time. Would your realize a gain if they were on separate SSD's in this specific situation? Hard to say, but if you did it would be a minimal loss.. less than 20% for sure. And that would only be for the disk access part of the equation.. so over all 2-3%?
Now.. as you use LR and find your catalogue growing.. once it starts to approach half the size of the SSD.. get a dedicated SSD for the catalogue.. a Samsung Evo at a size estimated to be half the size of your biggest ever catalogue. (that's my bar, yours may be different. For instance, I require a 1tb Evo for my catalogue drive.
Or you may not like LR so that becomes moot.]
Now.. I know, I can hear you thinkingL: What about a work drive? If you're moving 1 file at a time, even for your most extensive PS actions, if the rest of the system is set up ideally.. then using a SSD over WD Black HDD or even a good NAS (Synology recommended) there will be less than 2/10th's of a second overall in the final equation. Nothing worth worrying about.
Now.. if you need to access 500 images at once to see them in a nice 1:1 preview.. that's what LR is for and why you're using an SSD for your catalogue. If you need to queue up 10 images into PS for some job that will probably take you an hour considering the complexity.. you'll lose roughly 2 seconds by not using a SSD for your work drive. So.. an SSD for a work drive isn't worth much. Knowing what I know now about the performance of my Synology 1813+.. I'm more than content using it for a work drive.
Hope this helps.
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Hello again,
After pondering everybody's generous comments and doing a second round of research, here's my new, more modest proposal. I have an uneasy feeling about locking myself out of 64GB of RAM for the lifetime of this computer, but I also have an uneasy feeling about spending all that money on a CPU, motherboard, and RAM that might be considerably in excess of what I need. I've also written off the possibility of a 10-bit monitor by downgrading the GPU (I'm sure 10-bit will be par for the course next time around; so I'll get the necessary components then).
Anybody notice any incompatibilities or bottlenecks?
Once again, thanks so much for your very helpful comments.
CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor
Motherboard: Asus Z87-PRO ATX LGA1150 Motherboard
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws Z Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR3-1866 Memory
Storage: Samsung 840 Pro Series 128GB 2.5" SSD
Storage: Samsung 840 Pro Series 256GB 2.5" SSD
Storage: Western Digital Black Series 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM HDD
Video Card: ASUS GTX760-DC2OC-2GD5 GeForce GTX 760 2GB
Case: Fractal Design Define XL R2 (Black Pearl) ATX Full Tower Case
Power Supply: SeaSonic X Series 850W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply Optical Drive: Asus DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS DVD/CD Writer
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 (OEM) (64-bit)
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I think this much more matches your stated work flow. All quality components which would play nicely together.
I would consider adding a CPU cooler, one of the higher rated types with (2) 120mm or larger fans. Set at a moderate airflow appropriate for your workflow it will be a great deal quieter than the stock CPU fan that comes wit the CPU.. If you do, make sure the heat sinks on your RAM modules allow for enough clearance.
One more thing, if you're not going to over clock go for the 4771 CPU and save yourself $30 or so.. The ONLY difference is you can't over clock it.
You'll need a DVD/R/RW player at a minimum. $14 or so for Lite-on brand which are fine. Consider a blu-ray player if you think it will be useful.
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I would agree with Steve on a better cooler as the Intel stock cooler can be loud especially under load. I have the Enermax ETS-T40 and it's silent and has a much bigger heatsink and fan than the Intel. Installation is pretty easy as well. The only question I might have is the case. Do you really need the XL size? The Define R4 is smaller and has plenty of space for your components. I have an Arc Midi R2 and it runs silent even though it doesn't have the foam insulation.
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Thanks, Steve and Alan.
Thanks for pointing out that I forgot to include a DVD reader/writer! I had one in my original list; not sure when it dropped off.
I don't plan on overclocking, so the 4771 would seem reasonable.
I wondered about the included CPU cooler; I'll look for a third-party that won't collide with my RAM.
Good point also about the case. I think the regular Black Pearl would probably be fine.
Again, many thanks!
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Oh, forgot to say: for another $50 I could get the Asus Z87 Expert mobo, which includes Thunderbolt, unlike the Pro that's on my list. I'd never even heard of Thunderbolt till a couple of days ago. What do you think, is it something worth getting now?
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This is just nitpicking here but I saw this article on hard drive failure rates and Hitachi seems to be the best. WD is also good but from a much smaller sample.
http://blog.backblaze.com/2014/01/21/what-hard-drive-should-i-buy/
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Oh, forgot to say: for another $50 I could get the Asus Z87 Expert mobo, which includes Thunderbolt, unlike the Pro that's on my list. I'd never even heard of Thunderbolt till a couple of days ago. What do you think, is it something worth getting now?
I made the mistake of thinking after our discussion on Thunderbolt you would have spec'd that MB.. so yes, for $50 get it. Unless it brings you close tot he Gigabyte UD7 in which case I'm more fond of Gigabyte products AND it will work in a Hackentosh system (so will all the components you've selected) so if you ever wanted to run OsX you've be set. You can't do that with the Asus board.
Thunderbolt is "the interface of the future" we're told.. (by Apple most recently) but with the recent inclusion on PC MB's I suspect we'll see a lot more of it..
So change:
1. A TB MB (Gigabyte if you're even remotely considering running OsX)
2. CPU Cooler. Nocturna 14's are great. Easy mounting system.
3. DVD R/RW
4. More modest case size. If you're changing case size give Lian Li another look.
5. 4771 CPU
6. CHECK memory heatsink clearance with whatever CPU cooler you choose.
Might as well draft up a new list.. :)
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This is just nitpicking here but I saw this article on hard drive failure rates and Hitachi seems to be the best. WD is also good but from a much smaller sample.
http://blog.backblaze.com/2014/01/21/what-hard-drive-should-i-buy/
Even more nitpicking: Statistics cannot predict the random behavior of a single individual unit. It doesn't work that way. You need statistically significant numbers, which means enough that some units do fail. Until then, failure rate is non-applicable.
There used to be a lot of discussion about the increased failure risk in a RAID0 array. Yes, if you have an array of a hundred disks or so. With two or four, you just don't know and that's all you know. Just as with a single disk.
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And then we'd have to further segregate by speed, capacity, controller runs, and more.
The truth is, when a significantly poor batch of had drives hit the supply chain it doesn't take long these days to be identified and the drums to start beating across the blogOsphere..
I think it's safe (even statistically) to say the OP's choice of a WD Black 3tb model will serve him well.
Still, if he's worried about HDD failure on the whole (we all should be) the OP would be well served to buy TWO of these drives ad run them in a RAID1 for 100% redundancy. This is a common strategy among the tier one builds I and many others do for the working data drive. 100% redundancy for the cost of a single HDD is a no-brainer. But since I've already mentioned it in previous threads and the OP didn't adopt it in his build list tells me he'd rather not for whatever reason..
It's always tough to know where to draw the line on a build if cost is a concern and for most it is.
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Ha ha, and here I thought I was finished!
Okay, having (re)read a bunch of stuff about the processors, I'm going with the 4770K - supposedly for some people the 4771 has better security, but for mortals like myself it can actually make security more complicated. I have enough complication already.
I looked at the Gigabyte motherboard, and while it might have more connectivity than the Asus, I think the Asus has enough for me (yes?), and the latter also has a couple of features I like the look of that the Gigabye lacks: a button to give you access to the BIOS (or UEFI or whatever it's called now) despite blink-of-an-eye boot-up times, and the debug LED display that tells you what isn't working (I see I called that "degug" in an earlier post - sorry). I will get the Expert version of the Asus Z87, though, to get Thunderbolt.
I confess I had hoped to live my entire life without finding out what a RAID really was, but I researched it and I agree. I'll get a second HDD and do a RAID 1.
Nobody suggested I should get two 256GB SSDs instead of one 256GB and one 128GB, but I'm going to anyway. Anybody think that's a bad idea? One will be for OS and programs, the other for LR catalogue, PS scratch disk, etc.
Since I'll now have two HDDs and two SSDs (and maybe I'll add a third some day), maybe I'll stick to the XL Black Pearl case, rather than the non-XL one.
Somebody pointed out to me that on the Intel site, for the i7-4770's "Memory Type" it gives "DDR3-1333/1600." What, if anything, does that mean for my choice of RAM (G.Skill Ripjaws Z Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR3-1866)? It says the same for the i7-4771, btw. Should I get the 1600 version of the Ripjaws instead?
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Since I'll now have two HDDs and two SSDs (and maybe I'll add a third some day), maybe I'll stick to the XL Black Pearl case, rather than the non-XL one.
You don't need to. The Define R4 has the same number of drive bays, 8 as the XL case and also has two other SSD mounts (I think they are under the motherboard IIRC as it's the same layout as my Arc Midi R2). What you are getting with the XL case is more 5 1/4 inch drive bays but you are only going to use one of those so why pay for the extra height???
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Ha ha, and here I thought I was finished!
What you're trying to do is build a computer by using democracy. Might I suggest a representative republic actually works better as pure democracies have never really proven their worth.
Okay, having (re)read a bunch of stuff about the processors, I'm going with the 4770K - supposedly for some people the 4771 has better security, but for mortals like myself it can actually make security more complicated. I have enough complication already.
Where do you come up with this stuff? Security? Are you talking about the locked vs. unlocked multiplier? I've already told you, the ONLY difference between the two is the ability to over clock, and the machine over clocks by manipulation of this multiplier. But it has zilch to do wit security. If anything the 4771 would be more secure for the "mortals" because they couldn't get their fingers inside to over clock..
I looked at the Gigabyte motherboard, and while it might have more connectivity than the Asus, I think the Asus has enough for me (yes?), and the latter also has a couple of features I like the look of that the Gigabye lacks: a button to give you access to the BIOS (or UEFI or whatever it's called now) despite blink-of-an-eye boot-up times, and the debug LED display that tells you what isn't working (I see I called that "degug" in an earlier post - sorry). I will get the Expert version of the Asus Z87, though, to get Thunderbolt.
[/quote]
Both the gigabyte and the asus have the one button access to the BIOS, a debug light, and an instant boot (which no one uses if they have even half a clue), so for every reason you've listed they're the same.
I confess I had hoped to live my entire life without finding out what a RAID really was, but I researched it and I agree. I'll get a second HDD and do a RAID 1.
I'm stunned. You were given advice by people who do this every day professionally, you then researched it. And agreed? What happened? ;D
Nobody suggested I should get two 256GB SSDs instead of one 256GB and one 128GB, but I'm going to anyway. Anybody think that's a bad idea? One will be for OS and programs, the other for LR catalogue, PS scratch disk, etc.
What was suggested was that you find out how big your LR scratch disk would be, and then double that so you'd also have room for a cache and/or scratch disk. A 256gb for your OS/Program disk is actually a very sound capacity.. most people even if they load their system with programs will use about half of that.. but with your page file (if you choose to use one), growing library folders (if you use them), the other half is usually enough.
The second SSD is what's in question and it depends on what you'll use it for. LR library and PS scratch disk was recommended. This is why you need to have some clue to the size to choose one with more than a smidgen of applicability..
Since I'll now have two HDDs and two SSDs (and maybe I'll add a third some day), maybe I'll stick to the XL Black Pearl case, rather than the non-XL one.
Have you read the specs on both? Keep in mind that SSD's don't actually require a drive bay. You can effectively use Scotch thick double sided tape to put them almost anywhere in the case the cables allow. k
Somebody pointed out to me that on the Intel site, for the i7-4770's "Memory Type" it gives "DDR3-1333/1600." What, if anything, does that mean for my choice of RAM (G.Skill Ripjaws Z Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR3-1866)? It says the same for the i7-4771, btw. Should I get the 1600 version of the Ripjaws instead?
Not necessarily. What you really want is the fastest memory your motherboard will support in its Profile 1 position, yet still be in the sweet spot of market costs. Both 1600 and 1866 are equally reasonable choices (sometimes you get lucky) so go with the one your pocketbook likes the most. Actually difference in use will never be noticed.
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A 256gb for your OS/Program disk is actually a very sound capacity.. most people even if they load their system with programs will use about half of that.. but with your page file (if you choose to use one), growing library folders (if you use them), the other half is usually enough.
Keep in mind that SSD's don't actually require a drive bay. You can effectively use Scotch thick double sided tape to put them almost anywhere in the case the cables allow. k
LOL, I have a 128GB Samasung 840 Pro as my OS & program drive. With Win7, Microsoft Office, Adobe LR, PS, Dreamweaver, Acrobat Reader, as well as a few other assorted programs; I'm not even using 50% of the drive (used space is 49GB; just checked). I was trying to keep costs down a little bit rather than going to a 256GB system SSD.
Both the Fractal Design cases he is considering have SSD drive spaces right beneath the motherboard which offers another option for mounting giving him EIGHT bays for hard drives! The eight bays are in a group of 3 & 5 and the 5 bay drive holder can be removed until it's needed, improving cooling (which is what I did).
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LOL, I have a 128GB Samasung 840 Pro as my OS & program drive. With Win7, Microsoft Office, Adobe LR, PS, Dreamweaver, Acrobat Reader, as well as a few other assorted programs; I'm not even using 50% of the drive (used space is 49GB; just checked). I was trying to keep costs down a little bit rather than going to a 256GB system SSD.
Both the Fractal Design cases he is considering have SSD drive spaces right beneath the motherboard which offers another option for mounting giving him EIGHT bays for hard drives! The eight bays are in a group of 3 & 5 and the 5 bay drive holder can be removed until it's needed, improving cooling (which is what I did).
My 256gb Vertex 4 stays about about 60% usage but I have two CS suites installed, LR, Capture Pro, and more.. with 10gb's of Outlook files, 10gb's of ebooks and various PDF's I've collected., and some other stuff. I should off-load the ebooks/PDF to other storage but like the OUtlook files, I enjoy the superfast indexing as I'm often searching for tidbits to use in my ramblings.. But considering todays prices vs. 3 years ago ($150 vs. $799!!!) its' entire reasonable considering the level of this build.
i.e. the case.. Ya, not sure who's advising him. Often on a forum you get several pretty knowledgeable guys trying to help, but who they're really listening to is young nephew Todd and the reason they're here (on the forum) is to keep young Todd honest.. meanwhile this "advice" no one on the forum is advocating keeps rearing it's ugly head..
Someday someone will say up front "umm.. hey guys, I don't know (or trust) you from shinolah, but I've known young Todd since my youngest sisters daughter got knocked up and "there's Todd!" and, well, anyway - he's had a computer class once in high school and is on his second PC and he's advising I get this here system.. Whaddaya think? Tell me if young Todd is out of line with his recommendations and even though he didn't know enough to prevent making the big mistakes in the first place, I'll run your suggestions by him and let's hope he does better next time, maybe run it by his hockey coach who's teaching the computer class.. okay?"
I'm telling you, we'll see this some day.. :D
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My 256gb Vertex 4 stays about about 60% usage but I have two CS suites installed, LR, Capture Pro, and more.. with 10gb's of Outlook files, 10gb's of ebooks and various PDF's I've collected., and some other stuff. I should off-load the ebooks/PDF to other storage but like the OUtlook files, I enjoy the superfast indexing as I'm often searching for tidbits to use in my ramblings.. But considering todays prices vs. 3 years ago ($150 vs. $799!!!) its' entire reasonable considering the level of this build.
If I was going to do a new build today I would get the 256GB Samsung 840 Pro and a second one for LR catalogue.
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I'm reasonably certain that I don't have any neices with illegitimate children. :) My research sources for this build are entirely electronic: internet forums and manufacturers' websites. FWIW, the caution about security and the i7-4771 is from http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1822876/4770k-4771-difference-price-performance-ratio.html (http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1822876/4770k-4771-difference-price-performance-ratio.html). Here's an excerpt: "The 4771 is designed for a cloud/server environment and has special technology built into the chip for this purpose [including] Trusted Execution Technology TXT . . . [which] might actually cause you some security headaches." And then again it might not, I suppose. And the same post goes on to say that in other ways, the 4771 is more secure.
Good to know the 1866 RAM will work fine. Most of what I'd read either seemed to just assume it would be okay, or didn't address the question. One post on one forum said it was a problem; I'm glad it's not.
Nice also to know the smaller Black Pearl case will work. Not only is is a bit smaller, but it's also quite a bit lighter (which is maybe why the shipping is less - another bonus).
And thanks for the affirmation about the 2nd 256GB SSD. I think 256GB is about right for a Photoshop scratch disk for my usage; I've never used Lightroom, so I'm grateful for that input.
I think I'm ready to go ahead and order this stuff. Many thanks, gents, for your wisdom, courtesy, and patience!
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If I was going to do a new build today I would get the 256GB Samsung 840 Pro and a second one for LR catalogue.
I'd get a 256 Samsung Pro and a 1tb Samsung Evo for my LR catalog (kinda big)..
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I'm reasonably certain that I don't have any neices with illegitimate children. :) My research sources for this build are entirely electronic: internet forums and manufacturers' websites. FWIW, the caution about security and the i7-4771 is from http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1822876/4770k-4771-difference-price-performance-ratio.html (http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1822876/4770k-4771-difference-price-performance-ratio.html). Here's an excerpt: "The 4771 is designed for a cloud/server environment and has special technology built into the chip for this purpose [including] Trusted Execution Technology TXT . . . [which] might actually cause you some security headaches." And then again it might not, I suppose. And the same post goes on to say that in other ways, the 4771 is more secure.
Good to know the 1866 RAM will work fine. Most of what I'd read either seemed to just assume it would be okay, or didn't address the question. One post on one forum said it was a problem; I'm glad it's not.
Nice also to know the smaller Black Pearl case will work. Not only is is a bit smaller, but it's also quite a bit lighter (which is maybe why the shipping is less - another bonus).
And thanks for the affirmation about the 2nd 256GB SSD. I think 256GB is about right for a Photoshop scratch disk for my usage; I've never used Lightroom, so I'm grateful for that input.
I think I'm ready to go ahead and order this stuff. Many thanks, gents, for your wisdom, courtesy, and patience!
1. Nephew Tom is a good family member to have.. ;o)
2. As long as your MB supports 1866 in it's XMP profiles in tihe BIOS you'll be able to use the 1866 speed independently of of your main clock speed (whether you over clock of not).. and not be forced back to the 1066 default.
3. Ya, dual 256gb SSD's will give you that extra SSD to set up in a variety of ways to experiment with how it benefits the most for your work flow.. and the size will keep you for some time.
4. Do let us know how it turns out for you. I'm especially interested in how your expectations are met and if there's any areas you wish performed better.
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4. Do let us know how it turns out for you. I'm especially interested in how your expectations are met and if there's any areas you wish performed better.
+1; I think you will really enjoy building in the Fractal Designs case. Cable management is a dream and you will be pleased with its silent operation!
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Is a 256 gb SSD really enough for system and programs? I have only my os and installed programs on my c drive and it has 225gb on it. Adobe Creative Suite takes up the most of it.
I thought it was better not to overload an SSD.
I'm not an expert - just curious.
Sharon
Adobe CS6 master suite with both x32 and x64 versions uses less than 20gb total, across all directories.
I have that and the CC versions and a ton of other stuff. I use 130gb on average with almost that free on my 256gb SSD.
See if you can get someone with more experience to take a look at your usage and find all the problems.
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Oh, forgot to say: for another $50 I could get the Asus Z87 Expert mobo, which includes Thunderbolt, unlike the Pro that's on my list. I'd never even heard of Thunderbolt till a couple of days ago. What do you think, is it something worth getting now?
I recently did a build with the P8Z77-V PRO/THUNDERBOLT mobo. On sale it was the exact same price as the P8Z77-V PRO so i figured why not get the TB for free.
Well I have looked at the price of Thunderbolt hard drives and displays and I don't see myself using my TB port in the near future. If you are just becoming aware of TB then the chances are you don't have a need for it - so do NOT pay more for a board to have it.
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I have only my os and installed programs on my c drive and it has 225gb on it.
Sharon
Hi Sharon, I assume you are running W7 or W8, if so then it's possible to move most of your programs and the system Users folder to another drive during initial install which can save some space on c:.
Once installed, moving the system Users folder is much more difficult however you can still install programs on another drive providing the programs offer drive install as a user selection.
Brian.
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Just today I moved all my LuLa video tutorial files to another drive from the boot drive - freed up 75 Gb on a 225 Gb SSD!!
Moral of the story is that it is likely that a lot of weighty files other than applications are taking up all the space.
Tony Jay
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Just today I moved all my LuLa video tutorial files to another drive from the boot drive - freed up 75 Gb on a 225 Gb SSD!!
Moral of the story is that it is likely that a lot of weighty files other than applications are taking up all the space.
Tony Jay
Anyone buying or building a new computer should make sure to get a two (or more) drive system for just this reason. Keep the main drive for the OS and main programs only and use the other drive(s) for storage and less frequently used programs. Video files are usually very large as Tony points out and can fill up space rapidly.
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That's what I found after learning here that my c drive shouldn't be so full. itunes stored my videos on the c drive. I have since moved them.
Sharon
Quite right. Most if not all installed programs that download various files use the drive the program is installed on as the destination storage. I wish that the developers would make it easier to configure where things should be stored when multiple drives are present. Internet Browsers also need to be reset as well for where they download items.
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Quite right. Most if not all installed programs that download various files use the drive the program is installed on as the destination storage. I wish that the developers would make it easier to configure where things should be stored when multiple drives are present. Internet Browsers also need to be reset as well for where they download items.
I'm going to interject a CAUTION for those with lesser experience... (not you Alan). BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU DELETE OR MOVE FROM YOUR USERS DIRECTORY because if you don't know what you're doing it's very easy to delete something you, the computer, or a program needs to operate properly. I can't count the number of times I've had to spend A LOT of time trying to find why a program wouldn't uninstall or a update wouldn't take, only to find out a client had been in the USERS directory trying to free up space. You can easily delete something today, that will, be flushed from your recycle bin in a few weeks, that you'll finally discover you needed 5-6 weeks later when the latest update comes out or you try and uninstall a program. So please be sure you really want to delete or move stuff. How can you be sure? Ask, or even Google it.. google the directory/folder/file name and learn what it is and what it does and then make a decision.
Okay, now that I've spoiled the fun how is one supposed to keep the C drive in check and not let it fill up with stuff better stored elsewhere? First, realise it's not necessary to delete/move every single file that doesn't need to be there. Even a file approaching a gigabyte but that grows slowly (browser cache/history) and can impact the speed with which your browser operates should screened carefully to see if you really need to remove it. For most of the files of this type.. not deleting them is the way to go. What you want to delete/move are pockets of 5-100gb where files are regularly being stored. How to find them? I've found a visual reference to how much room each folder takes up is the most useful tool for this task. Check out WINDIRSTAT here. (http://windirstat.info/download.html) It's free an works well enough. Anyone know of such a program for Mac's? By visually noticing a folder taking up a ton of space you can quickly find out exactly how much and of what type of files..
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I use Lightroom and Elements and scan medium format films. Image files are 200mb. However, if I start getting drum scans, I could wind up with hundreds of mb's more. What key element should I be concerned with?
Note that I don't want to build my computer from scratch. Just get one from known manaufacturer that allows selections. Who would you recommend?
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I use Lightroom and Elements and scan medium format films. Image files are 200mb. However, if I start getting drum scans, I could wind up with hundreds of mb's more. What key element should I be concerned with?
Note that I don't want to build my computer from scratch. Just get one from known manaufacturer that allows selections. Who would you recommend?
1. Laptop or desktop?
2. What ports does your scanner connect to?
3. Budget?
4. What are you using now? (in terms of what kind of CPU, RAM, SSD or not, etc..)
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1. Want a Deskktop running windows, not Apple.
2. USB currently attached to my V600 Ep[son scanner.
3. Computer around $1000 but can go higher if need too. Plus a good new monitor for photo post processing. (reecommendations?)
4. Currently using Dell XPS420 Tower
Operating System Windows Vista Home Premium Service Pack 2 (build 6002)
3.00 gigahertz Intel Core2 Duo
64 kilobyte primary memory cache
6144 kilobyte secondary memory cache
64-bit ready
Multi-core (2 total)
Not hyper-threaded
Display
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT [Display adapter]
NEC 90GX2 [Monitor] (19.1"vis, s/n 6X117070GA, October 2006)
Bus Clock: 1333 megahertz
3070 Megabytes Usable Installed Memory
I get a lot of running out of memory messages when I'm doing LR3 or Elements. I recently bought LR5 to upgrade too. But haven't been able to install it as I'm running Vista and you need Winmdows 7 minimum. But LR3 does work and I'm able to do the adjustments. Obviousoly, I don't want to have those alerts any more and allow for processing expansion.
Thanks
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1. Want a Deskktop running windows, not Apple.
2. USB currently attached to my V600 Ep[son scanner.
3. Computer around $1000 but can go higher if need too. Plus a good new monitor for photo post processing. (reecommendations?)
4. Currently using Dell XPS420 Tower
Operating System Windows Vista Home Premium Service Pack 2 (build 6002)
3.00 gigahertz Intel Core2 Duo
64 kilobyte primary memory cache
6144 kilobyte secondary memory cache
64-bit ready
Multi-core (2 total)
Not hyper-threaded
Display
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT [Display adapter]
NEC 90GX2 [Monitor] (19.1"vis, s/n 6X117070GA, October 2006)
Bus Clock: 1333 megahertz
3070 Megabytes Usable Installed Memory
Thanks
Alan -
I can see why you're having your out of memory errors and would be generally unhappy with the performance of modern software. Your system is roughly 6-7 years old? Or you caught a sale 4-5 years ago?
I won't recommend a pre-built system, but I'll recommend what specifications to look for in order of importance as related to your budget. If you've been happy with Dell and are familiar with their customer service protocol I see no reason to go elsewhere.
1. Ideally a Haswell 4770 or 4771 CPU should serve you well, and the 4771 could save you $30-$40 but won't allow over clocking. Another option would be a one generation older Ivy Bridge 3770 but only if you get significant savings.
2. Look for a bare minimum of 8gb of RAM, preferably 16gb. OEM's charge a lot for RAM upgrades so consider buying the bare minimum RAM from the OEM and upgrading it yourself. We can talk you thought this and it's the most easy consumer upgrade. People will echo the 16gb level and I'd agree, but if money is tight go for 8gb and upgrade later if you feel limited.
3. Virtually any system you buy will run your current scanner but look for USB3.0 as an useful upgrade.
4. You should get at least three drives. An inexpensive DVD/R/RW drive for loading programs, a 256gb SSD (don't skimp here, but this the second most easy consumer upgrade and we can walk you through it as well) for your programs and operating system, and a 3 or 4tb Western Digital 4tb Black hard drive for your data storage. If you have more requirements than this, or more money, tell us and we can improve on this area.
5. Windows 7 Home Premium will also work great for you. Don't be tempted by a touch screen desktop.. but Windows 8.1 might be okay.
6. For a monitor go look hard at the NEC PA224A or newer. It's a PA241w as a superb upgrade to your current NEC. You might even want to consider a PA272w if your budget allows because bigger monitors be helpful and more comfortable.
The rest of the bells and whistles they list are of marginal value, just look for these main items and the rest will configure itself..
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Thanks Steve. A couple of follow ups. Does Dell handle Haswell?
What about video/display driver card? Does the cpu handle that now? Years ago it was a big requirement hence my Radeon card.
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Steve: I checked Dell and came up with this. What do you think? It comes with Windows 8 but I bel;ieve tghey will provide 7 if I want. WHich one? What about the other stuff?
http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-8700/pd?oc=fdcwgx320&model_id=xps-8700
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They also have a $50 option to upgrade from NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 645 1.0GB GDDR5 to NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 650 Ti 1.0GB GDDR5
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Looks like they updated the 241 to a 242. What do you think?
http://www.necdisplay.com/p/desktop-monitors/pa242w-bk-sv
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Thanks Steve. A couple of follow ups. Does Dell handle Haswell?
What about video/display driver card? Does the cpu handle that now? Years ago it was a big requirement hence my Radeon card.
Yes they do. And for your uses a discrete video card is optional, otherwise the one built into the CPU will work fine for you. And if it doesn't you can add later when more convenient.
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Looks like they updated the 241 to a 242. What do you think?
http://www.necdisplay.com/p/desktop-monitors/pa242w-bk-sv
The 242 is a great monitor.. but about $200 cheaper on B&H when you add it to your cart. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/996585-REG/nec_pa242w_bk_24_pro_wide_gamut.html) But, if you don't have the SVII colorimeter and software look at the entire package to save a bit. Also check out provantage.com for good prices on NEC monitors.
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Just today I moved all my LuLa video tutorial files to another drive from the boot drive - freed up 75 Gb on a 225 Gb SSD!!
Moral of the story is that it is likely that a lot of weighty files other than applications are taking up all the space.
Tony Jay
Old LR catalogue backups may be another drive hog. LR doesn't automatically delete previous backups.
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I see there's another thread about 4k monitors. What do you think?
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OK, so I ordered a Dell with the Intel 4th Gen Intel Core i7-4770 processor (8M Cache, up to 3.9 GHz), 24GB memory, AMD Radeon(TM) HD R9 270 2GB GDDR5 and 2TB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive 6.0 Gb/s + 256GB SSD and Windows 8.1.
I don't understand the difference and how much more help there is with the 256GB SSD on top of the 24GB memory. Can somneone describe what the 256GB is doing as that's all new to me?
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OK, so I ordered a Dell with the Intel 4th Gen Intel Core i7-4770 processor (8M Cache, up to 3.9 GHz), 24GB memory, AMD Radeon(TM) HD R9 270 2GB GDDR5 and 2TB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive 6.0 Gb/s + 256GB SSD and Windows 8.1.
I don't understand the difference and how much more help there is with the 256GB SSD on top of the 24GB memory. Can somneone describe what the 256GB is doing as that's all new to me?
The system memory (24gb) is different that the flash storage (ssd) The short story is the ssd is a faster 'Hard drive" than the 2tb drives in your system.
Here is a good primer.
http://www.storagereview.com/ssd_vs_hdd
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So where will the SSD help? I use LR5 for photos and Adobe Premiere 12 for HD video. I might eventually get CS6. I'm also using scans of medium format film (200mb +) per image file but that will go up with drum scans when I scan outside.
Does the Radeon card have any impact on any of this? I hope the 24mb memory is sufficient.??
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The SSD will help with the overall responsiveness of your computer. Having LR catalogue and cache on the SSD will be a big plus. RAW files can be stored on the regular hard drive without much performance penalty.
A SSD is the single best upgrade you can make to an older computer after you maxed out the memory.
A new Haswell 4770, ample Ram and working on the SSD you will be pleasantly surprised at the speed I think.
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Thanks for the info about SSD. Do you have to select the SSD in LR when you set up for cataloguing and cache or does Lightroom do that automatically?
I already ordered from Dell with the Intel 4th Gen Intel Core i7-4770 processor (8M Cache, up to 3.9 GHz), 24mb memory and 2Tb hard drive with 256M SSD. Would that will be equivalent to Haswell?
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In a basic setup you will run Windows and programs on the SSD (this will be your c:) and LR will use the install drive for cache). But you can easily change this in preferences.
Haswell is the codename of the microprocessor architecture of that 4770. So you are all set.
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Great! So I just ordered the monotor from B and H. Just a heads up on the NEC PA242W-BK 24" monitor. You can save around $75 at B and H if you order the monitor and the Spectraview calibration kit SVII-PRO-KIT separately. For some reason their price for the PA242W-BK-SV which includes the kit is $75 more.
What are your experiences with this calibration kit with these photo editing specific NEC monitors? From what I read, the monitor is pretty good out of the box calibrated by the factory. Is the kit just something that you wind up screwing up the calibration? Something else to drive you crazy?
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I have the NEC 2490WUXi3 and use Spectraview II for calibration, it's really slick, complete mindless. Just remember to clean your screen first and run the calibration regularly, I do mine about every 2 weeks.
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Jay: Wouldn't the requirement for calibration every two weeks be dependent on the monitor? Shouldn't newer monitors hold their calibration longer?
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Jay: Wouldn't the requirement for calibration every two weeks be dependent on the monitor? Shouldn't newer monitors hold their calibration longer?
No, calibrate regularly for an accurate display.
Tony Jay
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No, calibrate regularly for an accurate display.
Tony Jay
I am sure that Tony is right for really critical work....and it was definitely correct for CRTs which tended to drift a bit.
Newer LCDs will hold calibration much longer. I find most, that I have used...and heard from others about....will have little change even after 3 or so months.
I have actually found CFL backlit LCDs to no achieve calibration quality unless allowed to warm up for about 1/2 hour....which is what both calibration mfgrs recommend to calibrate. LED backlighted LCDs do not seem to exhibit that.
John
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Jay: Wouldn't the requirement for calibration every two weeks be dependent on the monitor? Shouldn't newer monitors hold their calibration longer?
It sounds like you're getting all set. You've made good choices. You could have done a "bit" better by building it yourself and hand selecting parts, but you're clearly more comfortable this way so that's the best way for you.
Yes, every two weeks IF you demand the utmost accuracy. I've found my 2690's drift very little, so I turn off my reminder and only calibrate every two months or right before an important job. YMMV. You'll find Spectraview II so easy to use you don't mind doing it every week..
You're stepping up more than a few levels. I suspect you're going to be very happy with your new system.
Nothing left to do now but enjoy!
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Thanks Steve and everyone else. Yes, I decided to stay with Dell. My current system is 7 years old and I can't really complain about Dell. Plus I really didn't want to put it all together myself. I hope I oversized the new system enough so it can keep up with future requirements for another 7 years. Unfortunately I won't get the new computer for a month. The new monitor should arrive in a few days so I'll be able to play with it in the meanwhile.
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I hope the 24mb memory is sufficient.??
Hi Alan, if you are going to be processing HD video then 32gb of ram wouldn't hurt.
The only other issue I would see with 24gb ram versus 32gb ram is that if at some point you want to expand the ram to 32gb then you will need to find another 8gb stick to match the other 3x8gb sticks, maybe safer just buying the 4x8gb sticks to start with.
Brian.
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Brian: Currently I don't expect to do heavy HD video processing. But that could expand as I expect the future to include 4K. If the price is reasonable, I may add the extra 8mb. I'm checking with Dell for the cost but they're closed right now. Thanks. Alan.
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This will be a fine system to work with. There is one word of warning here regarding the use of LR and your SSD. Note that LR keeps old catalogs every time you exit with a full save. Depending on the size of your catalog you might find the SSD filling up rather quickly without really noticing. You will need to periodically go in and delete the older catalogs that are no longer used. I really don't understand why Adobe hasn't made this a more user friendly process.
Personally I keep all my LR stuff on a traditional hard drive (WD Black 2TB) and find that this is fast enough for my purposes.
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Does the Catalog include the original scanned photo. Or is the photo kept on the hard drive with just the editing data base on the SSD?
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Does the Catalog include the original scanned photo. Or is the photo kept on the hard drive with just the editing data base on the SSD?
Catalogs are in a separate directory from your photos so you can assign it to the SSD. I don't have a lot of images on my computer as I ruthlessly cull out those that I will never work on. The size of my photo collection is 68 GB and from this each LR catalog is 80 MB, and as you continue to back up and add new images to the catalog the directory will increase in size. It's just something to pay attention to as time goes by. You should be in good shape with a 256GB SSD.
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Hi Alan, if you are going to be processing HD video then 32gb of ram wouldn't hurt.
The only other issue I would see with 24gb ram versus 32gb ram is that if at some point you want to expand the ram to 32gb then you will need to find another 8gb stick to match the other 3x8gb sticks, maybe safer just buying the 4x8gb sticks to start with.
Brian.
Brian: I checked with Dell. The unit I ordered goes to 24gb memory max. I'd have to change the computer and get a 3TB drive but to get it with the 32gb they want like $300+ more. That's nuts!. So I kept the order the way it is-hopefully I'll be ok with 24gb. Thanks for the suggestion though. Al.
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Brian: I checked with Dell. The unit I ordered goes to 24gb memory max. I'd have to change the computer and get a 3TB drive but to get it with the 32gb they want like $300+ more. That's nuts!. So I kept the order the way it is-hopefully I'll be ok with 24gb. Thanks for the suggestion though. Al.
Alan - Since it was brought up. $300 to get a full 32gb and go from a 2tb to 3tb drive.. kind of a bargain. But from a technical standpoint.. I never buy motherboards with odd number of slots. The industry standard for that CPU is 4 slots, 8gb per slot.. 32gb. And a company just released 16gb cards which hopefully means they'll become mainstream soon and our motherboard makers will change the BIOS to accept them. The CPU itself can handle over a hundred GB's.. but the motherboard limits it by the number of slots and then the BIOS limits it more.
Anyway.. I'd pay the $300..
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Steve I didn't understand Dell on this one either. This is the memory they are furnishing with the unit I ordered" 24GB Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz - 4 DIMMs
Thats say 4 slots, no? Either the salesman made a mistake or they have a policy that you have to upgrade to the next level.
The price was more likem $330. But that seems like a liot for going from 24gb to 32 gb and 2tb to 3tb. Do I really need all that?
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Steve I didn't understand Dell on this one either. This is the memory they are furnishing with the unit I ordered" 24GB Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz - 4 DIMMs
Thats say 4 slots, no? Either the salesman made a mistake or they have a policy that you have to upgrade to the next level.
The price was more likem $330. But that seems like a liot for going from 24gb to 32 gb and 2tb to 3tb. Do I really need all that?
Right, 4 DIMM memory cards fit into 4 slots. 24gb doesn't add up. Ask them why. Sometimes they install oddball motherboards to save a bit.. Do you know what motherboard this is? The main chipset? Let's gather some more facts and see where it leads us.
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They're closed. I'll check tomorrow. There is nothing on there motherboard on their web page. However, there is only a web page difference of $200 between the two modell with the large having 3TB inmstead of 2TB and 32GB instead of 24gb. Does $200 sound right. Whaty does an 8gb memry card cost anyway? Ciouldn't I added down the road if I need it?
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They're closed. I'll check tomorrow. There is nothing on there motherboard on their web page. However, there is only a web page difference of $200 between the two modell with the large having 3TB inmstead of 2TB and 32GB instead of 24gb. Does $200 sound right. Whaty does an 8gb memry card cost anyway? Ciouldn't I added down the road if I need it?
A 8g card by itself.. about $75-$90. Difference in 2-3tb drives.. $50-$70. Yes, you 'could' add just one stick later but it's not a good idea. You really should install identical DIMM's in each "bank" of memory, and in the case of the 4770 CPU a bank is 2 DIMM slots. This is why they sell memory "kits" of 2 each or 4 each depending. Theoretically you should be able to match the specs and by one more, but you're asking for trouble doing this. Memory is too finicky, and characteristics age with wear and time.
But most importantly is that if they're trying to push 24gb of RAM and they're telling you they can't upgrade to 32gb.. it's not because they don't have more RAM. It's because something is stopping it from working as it should. Do you want to deal with something like this later?
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Alan, I agree with Steve, the wallet pain now will be forgotten in short time.
Brian.
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assuming there is the extra slot, could I buy two new ones later one and replace one and add one with the two new ones?
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Dell says the unit is furnished with two 8gb and two 4gb slots. No expansion. So our will cost another 300 dollars with the 3tb dRive instead of 2tb. What do you think
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And the 32gb memory.
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Dell says the unit is furnished with two 8gb and two 4gb slots. No expansion. So our will cost another 300 dollars with the 3tb dRive instead of 2tb. What do you think
If what they're telling you is true, they have some hokey motherboard in that machine and I wouldn't want it at any cost. Go for the upgrade.
This is a problem with preconfigured systems, 100% of the time they buy the cheapest components possible to meet a targeted list of specifications. Sometimes you get odd stuff. Try to get common specifications and with a good warranty you'll be fine. And in this case common would be 32g RAM.
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I'm not sure it's worth it to spend$300 for 8gb memory. Shouldn't 24 gb be enough? I have 2 year warranty.
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Alan, do you have the model number?
Just doesn't sound right with the differing memory slots, thinking (hoping) the sales people might have it wrong.
Brian.
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Dell XPS 8700 Special Edition. Lol good the 24gb. You'll see the others there too.
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What I'm hoping it's that they just put in two 4gb mem cards in the two slots but that they can be replaced with two 8gb. Because the next one up has 32. I can't imagine that they change from one model to the next on the same series.
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Dell supply large volumes to government, education and desk top businesses world wide, so penny pinching to fit models targetted to these markets is common as they are seldom upgraded but instead are replaced in a 3-5 year cycle.
Brian.
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The model I bought is right below the high end gaming model and way above typical institutional models. The model I bought is for home use. Of course they're going to cut corners anyway. But the dimms situation doesn't make fabRication sense
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Alan, found this response (http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/p/19525149/20448736.aspx#20448736) on the Dell forums.
Appears that the maximum ram that can be ordered is in fact 24gb, however it also seems possible to remove the 2x4gb sticks and replace with 2x8gb sticks after delivery, so all good in the end.
Brian.
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Alan:
I am close to ordering a new computer (will go with Dell also) and am curious as to how much your configuration cost. Your needs seem to be pretty similar to mine and your setup is essentially what I had in mind. Thanks.
Peter
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I'm not sure it's worth it to spend$300 for 8gb memory. Shouldn't 24 gb be enough? I have 2 year warranty.
It's just not for 8gb. It's for a larger hard drive, a different motherboard and probably a higher capacity power supply and maybe a better case as well. Are the video cards the same? I'm guessing because you haven't posted links to the models you're considering, but usually there's a lot more to a different system then just memory. You need to critically examine each one and decide what it's worth to you.
Is 24gb enough? Well.. you can get buy with 4gb. Or 8gb. Or 16gb. Each additional gigabyte of memory, up to a certain point specified by your work flow, will increase performance. Only you can answer the question you asked. And I know it's impossible for you to answer without a side by side comparison. If it's any help I just replaced a 5 year old machine with 12gb and it worked fine. But performance sure increased with 32gb.. a lot.
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I am close to ordering a new computer (will go with Dell also)
why not w/ custom builders like xoticpc (for notebooks) or similar - Dell is barely configurable nowdays, is it not ?
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OK so if I got this right, I can remove the two 4gb memories and replace with two 8gb memories if the 24gb is not enough. No change to the motherboard or anything else. Th existing dimms will handle the two 8gb. Is that right?
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Alan:
I am close to ordering a new computer (will go with Dell also) and am curious as to how much your configuration cost. Your needs seem to be pretty similar to mine and your setup is essentially what I had in mind. Thanks.
Peter
I got the XPS 8700 Special Edition with 2tb hard drive +256SSD and 24gb memory for 1,717.50 including shipping but before taxes but that was a few days ago with a lesser price for President's day and a 4% discount because my wife's was a teacher. That's why the upgrade would cost me $300 because I wouldn't get the sale price. Note that this price includes Microsoft® Office Home and Student 2013 which runs aboiut $120. in the $1717.50. Here's the web page for the different configutations at today's prices. You can see there all the equipment that is standard in the package I bought
http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-8700-se/pd
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Oh. that doesn't include a NEC monitor which I'm buying separately.
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It's just not for 8gb. It's for a larger hard drive, a different motherboard and probably a higher capacity power supply and maybe a better case as well. Are the video cards the same? I'm guessing because you haven't posted links to the models you're considering, but usually there's a lot more to a different system then just memory. You need to critically examine each one and decide what it's worth to you.
Is 24gb enough? Well.. you can get buy with 4gb. Or 8gb. Or 16gb. Each additional gigabyte of memory, up to a certain point specified by your work flow, will increase performance. Only you can answer the question you asked. And I know it's impossible for you to answer without a side by side comparison. If it's any help I just replaced a 5 year old machine with 12gb and it worked fine. But performance sure increased with 32gb.. a lot.
Steve: That's why I originally stopped at 24gb. In reading a lot beforehand from people who do a lot more post processing than I do, no one suggested anything above 16gb. But I figured I'd add another 8gb to make it 24 to leave a little slop for future unknown requirements. If the dimms can handle 8gb each, can I swap them out in the future (at a lot less cost since prices will go down) if and when I need them? Thanks.
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OK so if I got this right, I can remove the two 4gb memories and replace with two 8gb memories if the 24gb is not enough. No change to the motherboard or anything else. Th existing dimms will handle the two 8gb. Is that right?
According to Mr DELL-Munawar P who appears to be a Dell employee in the link I posted above.
Brian.
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why not w/ custom builders like xoticpc (for notebooks) or similar - Dell is barely configurable nowdays, is it not ?
I consuidered it but I;ve had good experience with Dell and wanted a package that had a one year warranty with heavy backup support. With buying it on my American Express card, I also extend the warranty a second year with no cost to me. Also, I really didn't want to deal with different vendors, doing the research, etc for a custom unit.
My current computer hard disk seems to be failing and I wanted to get it done. So now it's on order due early March. I hope the price I paid is fair as compared to a custom made unit. Is it?
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According to Mr DELL-Munawar P who appears to be a Dell employee in the link I posted above.
Brian.
I hope he knows what he's talking about. I'll send him the bill if he's wrong. :)
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Alan, it would be very unusual to nobble the motherboard memory capacity with 2x8gb slots and 2x4gb slots and wouldn't make sense in a engineering/production environment.
Using a mix of capacities is normally an option however most builders play it safe by using matched memory to reduce any incompatibilities or performance problems.
Brian.
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Steve: That's why I originally stopped at 24gb. In reading a lot beforehand from people who do a lot more post processing than I do, no one suggested anything above 16gb. But I figured I'd add another 8gb to make it 24 to leave a little slop for future unknown requirements. If the dimms can handle 8gb each, can I swap them out in the future (at a lot less cost since prices will go down) if and when I need them? Thanks.
Sure, a slot that holds 4gb DIMM's will hold 8gb DIMM's. But this is only a physical slot. As I wrote earlier the BIOS needs to be able to handle it. BIOS's are nothing more than EEPROM's, a form of memory. It takes more of this very fast expensive memory to hold instructors for more RAM.
Anyone have a early Core 2 Duo machine when the x64 version of Vista came out? BIOS companies started rewriting BIOS's to handle RAM in excess of 3gb and more than a few Dell machines (I owned 3 of them) couldn't be upgraded without removing other capabilities.. so in some cases they did, others they didn't.. no rhyme of reason.
Anyway, since I've heard of Dell selling configurations just like this one.. for some odd reason that makes no sense at all they won't sell it with 32gb (other examples were 10gb in a 12 machine, 12 in a 16, etc).. and later buyers learn they can't upgrade. Will this be such a case? I don't know.
But you started out telling us you wanted this computer to last a good long time, you didn't want to run out of resources in the future. You'll have to make the choice. I looked at your two choices, 24gb model for $1699 and the 32gb model for $1899.. ($200 difference) and for another 8gb of RAM and a third bigger hard drive.. it's not a bad deal. But it's your wallet and you'll be the one living with the machine for the next 5-6 years. Or maybe less.
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Steve: I appreciate the warning. The upgrade will cost me $300, not $200, plus sales tax because the discount I received on the order I placed would not apply for an upgrade. Also, I just don't want to add on the additional expense especially since I'm spending over $1200 for the new NEC monitor and Spectraview calibrator you recommended. My wife's going to kill me as it is. :)
In any case, why is 32gb the magic number? I didn't think I needed more than 16gb when zI started shopping but went with 24gb as a cushion. Is there anyone here who's having problems with 16gb ?
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Steve: I appreciate the warning. The upgrade will cost me $300, not $200, plus sales tax because the discount I received on the order I placed would not apply for an upgrade. Also, I just don't want to add on the additional expense especially since I'm spending over $1200 for the new NEC monitor and Spectraview calibrator you recommended. My wife's going to kill me as it is. :)
In any case, why is 32gb the magic number? I didn't think I needed more than 16gb when zI started shopping but went with 24gb as a cushion. Is there anyone here who's having problems with 16gb ?
1. Dell salespeople generally will price match, bargain, carry over discounts.. talk to them. Often, asking to talk to their manager will yield results.
2.There is no magic number for RAM.. but there is what's considered the point of marginal returns from an economic sense.. and the way RAM is priced and utilized, 16, 32, 64 are the numbers most often used. This doesn't mean you can't use less.. but the moment you wrote that Dell wouldn't increase that machine to 32gb.. that put me off on it. It doesn't make sense. When something doesn't make sense I stay away from it.
This doesn't mean you won't find it a great machine, in fact I'm sure you'll try it out and report back it's the computer of your dreams and you can't imagine needing more power. But what I'm concerned with is your report 12-24 months from now.
CURVE BALL - So for fun I went to Newegg and compiled a total build list that meets or exceeds your Dell system in al respects. Dell doesn't tell you what power supply, what chip set, what motherboard, what SSD, what HDD, what wifi.. the only thing you know for sure is the video card and CPU.. The list I made up is all top grade components.. AND you've got your 32gb of RAM and 3tb drive (a 3tb BLACK, the best), a Samsung 250gb EVO (top tier but not the absolute best), Seasonic Gold 650watt PS (room for expansion and absolutely silent), a CPU cooler that makes very little noise, way ahead of what Dell was giving you, same video GPU but over clocked with bigger more quiet fans, blue-ray, card reader, Windows 8.1 (I'd get Win7) etc, etc.. It's all there. All great stuff. A few bucks less than your Dell setup..
In short, if you want the better system, which BTW is ready to ship as we speak, all you need to do is order and put it together. And yes, we'll help..
Others, feel free to recommend changes.. maybe we can narrow down the ultimate system at this level of performance.
PDF parts list attached.
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Steve That's attractive. Does Newegg assemble? What about warranty? How long? Who do you talk to if there are problems and you need service for hardware? For software?
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CURVE BALL - So for fun I went to Newegg and compiled a total build list that meets or exceeds your Dell system in al respects. Dell doesn't tell you what power supply, what chip set, what motherboard, what SSD, what HDD, what wifi.. the only thing you know for sure is the video card and CPU.. The list I made up is all top grade components.. AND you've got your 32gb of RAM and 3tb drive (a 3tb BLACK, the best), a Samsung 250gb EVO (top tier but not the absolute best), Seasonic Gold 650watt PS (room for expansion and absolutely silent), a CPU cooler that makes very little noise, way ahead of what Dell was giving you, same video GPU but over clocked with bigger more quiet fans, blue-ray, card reader, Windows 8.1 (I'd get Win7) etc, etc.. It's all there. All great stuff. A few bucks less than your Dell setup..
In short, if you want the better system, which BTW is ready to ship as we speak, all you need to do is order and put it together. And yes, we'll help..
Others, feel free to recommend changes.. maybe we can narrow down the ultimate system at this level of performance.
PDF parts list attached.
A couple of suggestions. I would go for an external USB 3.0 card reader. If you ever bend a pin (and it does happen) it's easy enough to replace. I don't know anything about the case you suggest and I would opt for the Fractal Designs Arc Midi R2 case. I have it and it's very quiet and runs cool because of the design. It's a little more expensive. Unless Alan is going to watch movies on the PC, why not just dump the Blu Ray drive for a regular DVD drive and save some money there. I would not install McAfee AV software but install Bitdefender after the build is complete. I run it and it has a very low footprint and works exceedingly well. I didn't check the Newegg site, but wouldn't a non-K CPU be a little cheaper? I doubt Alan is going to Overclock this PC.
I don't know where Alan lives but he might want to look and see if there are some small independent companies that could put this system together for a small price. If he lives in my area, I would do it in a heartbeat!! ;D
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Alan G: My main concern about putting together my own system is support and service. I had a very bad first experience years ago with Windows 95 and an Acer system I bought from a local fabricator/assembler in Manhattan. I know things have changed a lot with reliability, but support is still very important to me. As they say, once burned, twice shy. I'm sure some of the suggestions you make are good. But since I'm buying a pre-fabbed system, my choices for subsitutions are limited. Thanks for the suggestions.
One question I do have is why would I overclock? What does that mean anyway?
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One question I do have is why would I overclock? What does that mean anyway?
You really don't have to overclock at all. It's a sophisticated way of increasing computer performance by upping the speed of components. A lot of those who play games on their PCs do this to squeeze every last bit of performance out of the unit. It's not for the faint of heart and requires a lot of effort to get things right.
I'm sure the Dell system you are looking at will do just fine. I think what Steve and I find curious is the whole memory issue that Dell is telling you cannot be changed without a lot of money.
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It would seem that all it would take would be to chnage 24gb to 32gb. Simple. But if you look at their systems selections, they apparently want you to upgrade to the whole pre-fabbed upgrade that also include another 1TB on the hard drive for a total add of $200. In previous systems I've bought from them, you would just go to the section called memory for a specific computer model, and check off how much memory you wanted. They've changed the way they sell these things.
The big question will be can you can upgrade memory afterwards on your own or will the motherboard and BIOS stuff limit that option. Who knows?
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Steve That's attractive. Does Newegg assemble? What about warranty? How long? Who do you talk to if there are problems and you need service for hardware? For software?
1. Newegg will assemble the CPU and RAM onto the motherboard and test it I think for $20.. The rest you do yourself. It's not hard. And there are a million youtube videos showing how. Check them out.
2. Each component is warrantied separately thought the manufacturer. You determine it's bad, call for an RMA, and send it in and they'll send you a new one.
3. Most of the components I selected are warrantied for 3 to 5 years. Go to newegg, look up the part, and note the length of warranty.
4. This is the best part. The service professional is always available when you are, because you are him. Troubleshooting a PC iis very straightforward..
5. Once again, you are him. The only software you're buying is Windows and I priced the OEM version of Windows which means there is no support. You can pay more an get the version that provides three repair instances, but most think it a waste of money. If you own Lightroom, then they answer lightroom questions. If you own photoshop then adobe helps your questions there.
It's a brave new world Alan.. this is what most of us here are doing.
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I'm not that brave!
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A couple of suggestions. I would go for an external USB 3.0 card reader. If you ever bend a pin (and it does happen) it's easy enough to replace. I don't know anything about the case you suggest and I would opt for the Fractal Designs Arc Midi R2 case. I have it and it's very quiet and runs cool because of the design. It's a little more expensive. Unless Alan is going to watch movies on the PC, why not just dump the Blu Ray drive for a regular DVD drive and save some money there. I would not install McAfee AV software but install Bitdefender after the build is complete. I run it and it has a very low footprint and works exceedingly well. I didn't check the Newegg site, but wouldn't a non-K CPU be a little cheaper? I doubt Alan is going to Overclock this PC.
I don't know where Alan lives but he might want to look and see if there are some small independent companies that could put this system together for a small price. If he lives in my area, I would do it in a heartbeat!! ;D
1. If he put together his own system he can change his card reader in the rare event he bends a pin. Internals are much cleaner and you have less clutter than external devices..
2. Alan is not a good candidate to start suggesting favourite components. I really don't care, I sourced it directly from specs and user feedback because getting a case I'd recommend would at another $70 to the build.. and he';s already stuck at that $1700 price.
3. I toyed with dropping the blu-ray.. but it's what was on the original Dell build so I went with it. But sure, he can save $30 by going to a straight DVD-RW.
4. Mcafee is a freebie from Newegg.. I wouldn;t use it either, nor would I use what you're using,. People tend to use what they're familiar with and Alan probably should too.. makes life easier when it comes too virus protection. Besides, all the top software virus protection software is equally effective. The differences are in the UI.. But Mcafee is free..
5. Yes, he could save $30 by going to a 4771 CPU.. But not sure it was worth the confusion factor for Alan.. :)
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I'm not that brave!
It was a curve ball.. just an example. Most of us do this because its' really not that hard.. kinda like sex, you really sweat it the first time but it gets easier and you actually look forward to building another one. And like sex, most of us prefer to spec our own mate rather than have an uncle set us up.. ;D
Really, watch a few youtube videos.. you'll be a pro by the time you're done. Then do what you're comfortable with. And remember, we're here to help.
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At my age, any sex is special! All kidding aside, I could handle the build and the downstream service. I spent 50 years as a technician and designer and installer and servicer of building automation systems, computer based fire alarem systems for high rise office buildings etc. It's just that I just don't want to do it anymore just like I'd rather let someone else develope my film.
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I don't know where Alan lives but he might want to look and see if there are some small independent companies that could put this system together for a small price. If he lives in my area, I would do it in a heartbeat!! ;D
I did just that about three years ago when I decided to move from a Dell XPS-something-or-other running 32-bit Vista up to a 64-bit Win 7 system.
I explored the build-it-yourself idea I was too timid to go that route. Instead I found an outfit called PCs for Everyone (http://www.pcsforeveryone.com/ (http://www.pcsforeveryone.com/)) which had a distribution depot within an easy drive of where I live, near Boston.
The nice thing about their site is that they have great planning tools that let you start with one of their standard pre-configured machines and go down the list of specs to see what alternatives they offer to each part. They give you the exact maker and product number of each item so you can easily look for reviews to help you pick the one that fits your own needs best. Once you pick your configuration, you can either get the components to assemble yourself, or you can pay a few bucks (I forget how much it was) to have them assemble and test the whole thing. I went for having them put it together, and I drove to the depot to pick it up when it was ready.
Just to set the record straight, what I ended up with does in fact have a 24GB memory maximum, because it has six memory slots (3-channel memory) with a maximum capacity of 24GB for the whole board (perhaps I could double it now if I wanted to, if I updated the BIOS, but I've never found the need to). My system has an Intel Core I7 950 CPU @ 3.07 GHz on an Intel DX58S02 motherboard (Socket 1366 LGA). I chose an Antec "Ultimate Gaming" case because it is easy to open for adding or swapping components, has lots of fans with easy-to-remove and clean filters, and at least seven drive bays.
I have installed various hard drives and an SSD and added a RAID controller and ESATA card and cleaned the filters a few times, and it has run beautifully for me.
A local "white box" outfit like this could be a good way to go, unless you do live within an easy drive of Steve Weldon.
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Given a choice between these two activities I would not assemble computers.
In this day and age, let someone else worry about components. You already ticked the right checkboxes. Any possible gains after a top of the line Haswell and that first SSD will be marginal.
Go with Dell if you are happy with the service and support :-)
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At my age, any sex is special! All kidding aside, I could handle the build and the downstream service. I spent 50 years as a technician and designer and installer and servicer of building automation systems, computer based fire alarem systems for high rise office buildings etc. It's just that I just don't want to do it anymore just like I'd rather let someone else develope my film.
There's nothing wrong with that, it describes over half my customers. Most are technical professionals of one type or the other who just don't care to keep up with the market so they know what to buy, and/or don't feel like bothering with the build.
And from experience I'd rank Dell Service as pretty good. Even marginally better than Lenovo.. but this is based only on my own experience with them.
You'll enjoy the new system, as mentioned before its so far ahead of your old one, you'll be caught up in the slip stream for at least the first few months.. :)
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Steve Thanks for all your help and honesty. I appreciate everyone else's assistance as well. As an aside, I happened to be looking a the Features section of the Dell site. It appears that I should be able to update later.
http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-8700/pd?oc=ddcwgp2103&model_id=xps-8700 Click the Features and Design box on the left.
Ample storage and expandability
Opt for 2TB hard-drive storage and keep an impressive digital media library —around half a million photos or songs, 240 hours of video or 550 movies. And if even that’s not enough, you have the ability to expand to 4TB.
The more memory, the better. At any time, installing more memory is a simple operation. Choose up to 16GB RAM now, with room for additional 16GB RAM when you're ready.
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Steve Thanks for all your help and honesty. I appreciate everyone else's assistance as well. As an aside, I happened to be looking a the Features section of the Dell site. It appears that I should be able to update later.
http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-8700/pd?oc=ddcwgp2103&model_id=xps-8700 Click the Features and Design box on the left.
No problem Alan.
About your quote/ram. I think you'll find many such posts, people saying "you should" be able to do this.. which isn't the same as someone actually doing it.
Good luck with the new system and do let us know how you like it Especially the monitor.
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The NEC PA242W-BK is arriving tomorrow. Can I use it with my old Dell XPS 420 that's running Vista while I'm waiting for the new computer?
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The NEC PA242W-BK is arriving tomorrow. Can I use it with my old Dell XPS 420 that's running Vista while I'm waiting for the new computer?
Sure, as long as long as the interfaces allow and I'm sure they do. You might have to hunt around for an adapter What video output type does your Dell 420 have? DVI, HDMI, DP?
I wouldn't though.. I'd be afraid of spoiling the overall surprise.
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A doubt:
I am also making a similar system coined by Jim here in 'democratic way'..... ;D
I found a 'Samsung 840 Evo Series 250GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (MZ-7TE250BW)' is available at about 2/3rd price of a 'Samsung 840 Pro Series 256GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (MZ-7PD256BW)'.
Given size 250 GB is enough, any other technical problem for this 250 GB ?
Because I found 250GB a very rare number in Drives !
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A doubt:
I found a 'Samsung 840 Evo Series 250GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (MZ-7TE250BW)' is available at about 2/3rd price of a 'Samsung 840 Pro Series 256GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (MZ-7PD256BW)'.
Given size 250 GB is enough, any other technical problem for this 250 GB ?
Because I found 250GB a very rare number in Drives !
You won't have any problem with the drive. 250GB is kind of a standard size with SSDs. Key difference between it and the Pro is speed which won't be much of a factor at all for photo processing needs. I upgraded my work station from the 128 840 Pro to the 250 EVO three months ago and haven't seen any difference at all. IMO, Samsung SSDs are the best around.
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Thank you,
And I have choice of Storage HDD: ‘Seagate Barracuda 3TB 7200RPM SATA Internal Desktop Hard Drive (ST3000DM001)’ is half the price of ‘Western Digital 3TB Enterprise Internal Hard Drive (WD3000F9YZ)’.
Is the cheaper Seagate advisable?
From my past experience, casualty of Seagate is more. But the price !
Can you please advise me ?
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Thank you,
And I have choice of Storage HDD: ‘Seagate Barracuda 3TB 7200RPM SATA Internal Desktop Hard Drive (ST3000DM001)’ is half the price of ‘Western Digital 3TB Enterprise Internal Hard Drive (WD3000F9YZ)’.
Is the cheaper Seagate advisable?
From my past experience, casualty of Seagate is more. But the price !
Can you please advise me ?
1st person (Me): Me and a second person noticed these 3tb externals selling for what was in Oct 2011 a bargain basement price. Knowing they usually stuff externals with their lowest performing drives I didn't expect much. I bought two of them to use as temporary drives. Me being me had to open the things up.. do some research, and discovered Seagate had stuffed these with their very latest and fastest drives. I did some tests and was surprised. I 'shelled' both of these drives and installed them as a RAID1 in my desktop case. They have been running 24/7 (I never turn them off) since and I do a SMART test monthly with not even a single defective sector to date. Until they show signs of their demise I'll keep them operational.
2nd person: I told a friend about these and he bought two. He made the same RAID1. About a year ago his went bad.
I suppose you could hope for either one.
I wrote an article about this back then you can read here.. (http://www.bangkokimages.com/Articles/Equipment/entryid/1087/Seagate-Expansion-3-TB-USB-3-0-Desktop-External-Hard-Drive-Review.aspx)