Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: douglas frost on January 06, 2014, 04:12:04 am

Title: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on January 06, 2014, 04:12:04 am
I’m currently shooting with a Canon system (1dx, 1dsmk3 and various lenses) but am interested in adding a smaller travel/street system. The idea is a small, lightweight camera that can just sit in a small bag if I’m out and about or if I’m overseas, can be used if I don’t feel like lugging around the 1dx.
I have had a Fujifilm X100 to use for a few days and have quite enjoyed it, plus the quality of the files seems good (I would probably get the X100s or XE-2 if I went down the Fuji path). But yesterday, after spending a few hours ‘street shooting’ with the X100, I stopped in at one of my local camera stores and they were very keen on talking me into a Sony Nex 7. I played with the Sony in the store for a little while and found it fairly simple to use but I wasn’t able to take any images home to look at. I did like the control system and the tilting lcd screen, and the evf seemed better (to me) than the evf of the X100.

The Sony Nex 7 has been rated very highly (including Michael’s very favourable review, but he has since updated to the Fujifilm X-Pro 1), and Nick Devlin has rated the X100s as having  "the best APS-C sensor in the business".I can find lots of great reviews for both systems, but not really any that compare them, so I guess my question is, what do you all think of the Nex 7 or perhaps the Nex 6 (bearing in mind the Nex 7 is 3 years old now) as an alternative to the Fuji’s? (FWIW, I’m not really interested in the A7 – it just doesn’t appeal to me). Does it just come down to handling differences or do  the Fuji’s have an advantage in the sensor?

If I went with the Sony, I suspect I would get the Zeiss 16-70 f4. I’m not so sure about the Fujifilm lenses and would need to investigate further – I could quite happily live with the fixed 23mm f2 on the X100s.

I’ve tried not to write too much of an essay, so if you need more information from me in order to answer, please just ask.

Thanks in advance.
Douglas
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: PhotoEcosse on January 06, 2014, 04:23:13 am
I can't offer a comparative evaluation, as I have not tried all the options.

But I find that the Panasonic Lumix GX7 is a superb wee camera for street photography (my normal arsenal is the Nikon D800 and D800E). In particular, I like the tiltable eye-level viewfinder of the GX7 and versatility is especially good. Image quality is excellent - at least for up to A3 prints.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on January 06, 2014, 06:40:25 am
I can highly recommend the Fuji X system. As for the Fujinon lenses, they are very good, even the zooms.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Ken Bennett on January 06, 2014, 07:09:20 am
If you like the 35mm-equivalent focal length, then the Fuji X100s would be the most compact choice, with excellent image quality. The optical viewfinder is very usable, too, giving it a much different feel than the Sony.

I have not owned the Sony, but I have used a NEX 7 for a while. It does a lot of things very well. Not sure about lens selection, though the existing lenses seem good. But all in all I prefer shooting my Fuji system.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Manoli on January 06, 2014, 08:31:52 am
Douglas,

Disclosure – I use FujiFilm X-E1 & 2 bodies, and love them (in preference to the x-pro). Can't offer advice or recommendations other than to recount my own experiences.

Firstly, due to the arrival of the Sony Alpha 7 series the NEX is an end-of-life product.  Normally that wouldn't phase me but given Sony's track record of poor customer support and firmware updates v FujiFilm's excellent one, it's something I would consider.

You don't say you what the 'usage' will be, but judging by your Canon system I guess that your IQ demands will be on the high side.  2 comments that may be relevant to your shooting:

The Sony NEX series have an AA filter. The Fuji x-trans is AA-less.
The Fuji X100s has a leaf shutter and can, theoretically,  sync up to the max shutter speed (1/4000), other factors obviously considered. 2 good hands-on reviews are here ..
http://strobist.blogspot.gr/2013/05/leaf-shutter-nd-flash-fuji-x100s.html
http://strobist.blogspot.gr/2013/03/in-depth-new-fujifilm-x100s.html

The only other 'guideline' I would refer to is output.  The other cameras I use are the D800E and the Sony RX100 MkII (and so often amazed by it's IQ). Majority of my output is B&W, and I print either 10x8 (A4) or 16x20 / 30x40 (not the RX100). My IQ cutoff is 1600 ISO on the D800. I've attached a comparison chart from DxO which shows the tonal range (of both sensors against the fave rave of the moment, the OM-D). DxO don't measure the fuji x-trans, due to it not being a bayer sensor, but it's certainly no worse (deliberate understatement) than the OM - which is an m43 sensor v aps-c. Without going into the realms of minutiae, it's an accurate representation of my hands-on experience.

In short I'm a big fan of the Fuji's.
Good luck.

M
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: philbond87 on January 06, 2014, 09:15:41 am
I will add to the voices recommending the Fuji system.
I have had an X-Pro1 and an X-E1 but now have an X-E2 and X-M1. I prefer the X-E series to the X-Pro1, personally. I also think the X-E2 offers significant improvements over the XE-1.

All of the Fuji lenses I have used are surprisingly good – even the kit 18-55 zoom.
I currently have the 14, 23, 35 and 55-200 and they are all very, very good. As well, I find the X-trans image quality to be excellent. Even their out of camera JPGS are very good. With the Fuji system I tend to shoot RAW+JPG, and only use the RAW files as a fall back in case the camera doesn't do good enough job on the JPGs, which the exception rather than the norm.

Like you my primary system is Canon. I recently got an A7R and adapter to use with my Canon lenses. Although I love the results I am getting with it I have not used any of the A7R's native lenses and – for a number of reasons – wouldn't use it as a primary travel camera.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Alan Smallbone on January 06, 2014, 09:45:31 am
I tried both, I had rented a Fuji X-Pro1 and borrowed a Nex 7, shot them side by side.  For me, I like the IQ from the Fuji and the handling. I did not like the NEX 7 control scheme, and the high ISO was not as good. Also Fuji has been so supportive with their cameras and firmware updates. The Fuji lenses are fantastic, so I much prefer the Fuji to the Sony. But like anything it is up each of us to decide. The handling and quality from the Fuji make it my go to camera and I rarely use my Canons.

Alan
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: JV on January 06, 2014, 12:04:50 pm
No experience with the NEX but also recommending the Fuji cameras and subscribing to everything that is said above.

I have the X-Pro1 and the 14, 23 and 35mm lenses.  The glass is excellent! I also just pre-ordered the 56mm lens.  I also own the X100s.

If I were to invest right now I would probably go for the X-E2.

Other options not yet mentioned (and more expensive) could be the Sony RX1(R) or a used Leica M8 or M9.

Thanks, Joris.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: stever on January 06, 2014, 12:27:04 pm
I bought the GX7 (see recent post).  the NEX 7 is due for replacement and the selection of quality NEX lenses is pretty thin, and from everything I've studied the selection of quality NEX zooms is zero - combined with Sony's service reputation I eliminated Sony.

I did not consider Fuji because of Lightroom development questions and a previous bad Fuji experience (which may not be relevant).  If you can be comfortable with development of Fuji RAW, then there is a lot to recommend both cameras and lenses.

so far I'm pretty satisfied with the GX7 handling and the silent electronic shutter is really nice.  i haven't bought any of the expensive zooms yet, but they are clearly a necessity for general purpose use to get near the IQ the sensor is capable of (like all other APSC and 43 cameras).
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: allegretto on January 06, 2014, 01:10:02 pm
Sony RX-1 is a stunningly good camera. Does th elow light trick better than any Fuji I am familiar with. Made like a tank.

Try one. The only problem is the fixed lens, but as you note a 35mm equiv is quite nice for most things. The RX-1 image is quite croppable.

it's the camera I always carry, though I've been lugging my M240 lately just because...

Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: OnyimBob on January 06, 2014, 02:58:13 pm
NEX 7
NEX 7
NEX 7
NEX 7
NEX 7 .......
That's just my prejudice showing Douglas :) :) :)
Might be 3 years old, does have a menu system that may perplex - but that tri-nav control set up is brilliant.
Add to that the blindingly fast shutter plus 24.5 mp and you have a great camera for the street.
Even the 18-55 kit lens will produce exhibition quality street photography.
In the end though Douglas, it all comes down to "horses for courses" and ..... personal prejudice (AKA what you're comfortable with)!
Bob.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: ACH DIGITAL on January 06, 2014, 03:23:56 pm
I bought the GX7 (see recent post).  the NEX 7 is due for replacement and the selection of quality NEX lenses is pretty thin, and from everything I've studied the selection of quality NEX zooms is zero - combined with Sony's service reputation I eliminated Sony.

I did not consider Fuji because of Lightroom development questions and a previous bad Fuji experience (which may not be relevant).  If you can be comfortable with development of Fuji RAW, then there is a lot to recommend both cameras and lenses.

so far I'm pretty satisfied with the GX7 handling and the silent electronic shutter is really nice.  i haven't bought any of the expensive zooms yet, but they are clearly a necessity for general purpose use to get near the IQ the sensor is capable of (like all other APSC and 43 cameras).

I would like to know which of these cameras, Fuji, Panasonic and Sony are 14 bits. I actually have a Lumix G5 and having problems with blue sky gradation.
ACH
Title: New travel/street camera: looking at lenses, AF, EVF
Post by: BJL on January 06, 2014, 03:45:38 pm
I’m currently shooting with a Canon system (1dx, 1dsmk3 and various lenses) but am interested in adding a smaller travel/street system. The idea is a small, lightweight camera that can just sit in a small bag if I’m out and about or if I’m overseas, can be used if I don’t feel like lugging around the 1dx.
I will try not to plug my own favorite (but I will admit it: Olympus EM5 or EM1), but just suggest that I would put pixel-peeping comparisons of sensor quality way down on the list, below looking for:
- a lens selection suited to your goals without getting too bulky: the Fujifilm X and Olympus systems seem best, but with different emphases suiting different needs.
- AF performance: if moving subjects are of interest to you then PDAF is probably required, so Nikon One V2, Sony NEX 6, Olympus EM1 or Fujifilm XE-2. [UPDATE: added the Fujifilm XE-2; sorry for the oversight!.]
- EVF quality: Olympus and Sony seem to be leading for now. (From your comments, I assume you want an EVF, not just a rear-screen.)
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Telecaster on January 06, 2014, 04:25:49 pm
Another thing to consider is native aspect ratio, assuming you care about making full use of the sensor. Sony & Fuji are 3:2, Olympus & Panasonic 4:3.

I have no experience with NEX but am equally happy with Fuji X and m43 image-quality-wise. The m43 cameras are quicker in operation—focusing, VF refresh, button response—than my X-E1 but the X-E2 should be better.

-Dave-
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on January 06, 2014, 05:05:03 pm
Thanks to all who have replied so far. I have to admit being surprised at the 'lack of love' for the Sony (Bob's post being the exception).

To clarify a few points;
- My preference is for a 'rangefinder - style' camera with an evf (the ovf on the X100s is a nice bonus) and aps-c sensor.

- I'm sure the Olympus EM5 and EM1 and the Sony A7 and A7r are great cameras, but I'm looking for something different.

- The Sony RX1 is more than I want to spend (plus I don't want a viewfinder attached to the top of the camera).

- The AF performance is not crucial for what I want - anything fast will have a 1dx thrown at it.

- In terms of lenses, I really don't want to build a collection. As I mentioned previously, I could happily live with a 23mm, but if I went with a zoom, I'm sure I can find one in either system.

- With respect to the Nex 7 being EOL, I don't always see that as a big negative - a new model doesn't instantly make the old one a dog. Plus, the price has already dropped substantially.

All that said, my next move is to see if I can try a few different cameras, see how they feel to actually shoot out on the street and take then take the files home and see how they look on a print.

More advice welcomed and considered. If it sounds like I'm ignoring your advice, I'm not - sometimes it just takes me longer to step out of my initial pre-conceived ideas...  :)

Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Manoli on January 06, 2014, 07:46:54 pm
I would like to know which of these cameras, Fuji, Panasonic and Sony are 14 bits. I actually have a Lumix G5 and having problems with blue sky gradation.

Can't say about the other cameras but the Fuji apparently is, in the X-E2 version. Haven't tested it yet.

"14bit RAW capture enables RAW conversion with richer tonality."
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x_e2/features/page_04.html
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Telecaster on January 06, 2014, 08:10:52 pm
Sony has just announced a new E mount APS-C camera, the a5000. An NEX cam in all but name. Same basic look. No built-in EVF.

http://pdnpulse.pdnonline.com/2014/01/sony-unveils-lightweight-a5000-mirrorless-compact-system-camera-with-wi-fi.html

-Dave-
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Telecaster on January 06, 2014, 08:27:10 pm
I would like to know which of these cameras, Fuji, Panasonic and Sony are 14 bits. I actually have a Lumix G5 and having problems with blue sky gradation.

I can't say I've noticed any correlation between sky gradation quality and 12- vs. 14-bit ADCs. I suspect it has more to do with individual sensor response pre-digitization. The (CCD) sensor in my old Epson R-D1 gave me the nicest sky tonality I've seen from an APS-C electronic camera. It's a c. 2004 6mp jobbie with a 12-bit (claimed anyway) converter.

-Dave-
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: BJL on January 06, 2014, 09:03:16 pm
... due to the arrival of the Sony Alpha 7 series the NEX is an end-of-life product.
As Telecaster just noted, rumors of NEX's demise have been greatly exaggerated: Sony Unveils Lightweight A5000 Mirrorless Compact System Camera with Wi-Fi (http://pdnpulse.pdnonline.com/2014/01/sony-unveils-lightweight-a5000-mirrorless-compact-system-camera-with-wi-fi.html)

But even though the "APS-C" format E mount system (as opposed to 35mm format FE mount) is likely to live on, I do slightly fear that there will be less effort to produce high end lenses and bodies for it. I am comparing to the fact that APS-C format DSLRs continue to dominate DLSR sales more than a decade after 35mm format DSLR options arrived, but Canon and Nikon have stopped designing new high quality lens for EF-S or DX mounts.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: JV on January 06, 2014, 09:06:15 pm
- In terms of lenses, I really don't want to build a collection. As I mentioned previously, I could happily live with a 23mm, but if I went with a zoom, I'm sure I can find one in either system.

In case you haven't seen it yet Fuji updated its lens roadmap today.  There are a few more zooms in the pipeline as well:
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/xf_lens/roadmap/index.html

- The Sony RX1 is more than I want to spend (plus I don't want a viewfinder attached to the top of the camera).

Those are precisely the two reasons why I haven't bought one either...
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on January 06, 2014, 09:10:56 pm
Just after I posted earlier, the announcements of new cameras and lenses started and I'm sure there are more to come, so I think I'll let the dust settle a bit and see if any of the new offerings appeal.

Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Michael N. Meyer on January 06, 2014, 11:48:13 pm
I've got a Nex7, an x100 and an X-Pro1.

The two Fujis are a joy to use and fall to hand nicely. Both travel well. Prints from either hang easily with prints from my FF DSLR. I'll also echo Alan's appreciation of continued support via firmware updates.

The Nex7 is one of the worst camera interfaces I've ever used. As convenient as the Tri-Navi controls should be, I find them confusing in use. The menus are a disaster. To top it all off, I dislike the output from the NEX7's sensor. It may work for some, but for me purchasing it was a definite mistake. I agree that the shop is probably pushing it on you because they want to clear older stock.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on January 07, 2014, 12:05:31 am
Thanks Michael - great to get input from someone with both systems (but everyone's input is greatly appreciated!).
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: David Sutton on January 07, 2014, 12:58:44 am
Hello Douglas. Just to throw a possible spanner in the works, how anonymous do you want to be?
Because if you want to look like just another tourist you may want something silent and without a viewfinder. I've noticed that as soon as I hold a camera up to my eye, people look.
In which case, any of the high end point and shoots would probably do.
While I like my Fuji X-E2 I'm also buying an X-M1. I dislike having just a flip out screen, but when holding it at waist level and looking down to photograph I've found I'm almost invisible. Or I just wave it at arms' length in the general direction of my subject. No one is usually bothered by some tourist taking a few holiday snaps.
David
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on January 07, 2014, 01:10:04 am
Good point David. There are certainly times when it is good not to hold a camera up and that was one of the things that appealed about the Nex7 and Nex6, in that they had both the EVF and the tiltable screen.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Manoli on January 07, 2014, 05:05:17 am
… rumors of NEX's demise have been greatly exaggerated: Sony Unveils Lightweight A5000 Mirrorless Compact System Camera with Wi-Fi (http://pdnpulse.pdnonline.com/2014/01/sony-unveils-lightweight-a5000-mirrorless-compact-system-camera-with-wi-fi.html)

If you paid attention to the announcement you linked to, you will notice that the new cameras carry the model designation 'ILCE-' , in keeping with the new A7- series, all E/FE mount compatible.   All NEX models carry, unsurprisingly, the prefix 'NEX-'.

The 'end-of-life' designation was not a rumour but rather a SONY Global HQ announcement.  Anyway, the message is clear – don't hold your breath for any future NEX firmware/feature upgrades.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Jim Pascoe on January 07, 2014, 05:28:30 am
Hi Douglas

If you want a small, compact, APS sensor camera, have you considered the Ricoh GR?  It is tiny, silent and produces very high quality images.  Of course like all cameras it is a compromise - namely fixed 28mm equivalent lens and no built in viewfinder.  However the last limitation for me is partly overcome by using an excellent clip on optical viewfinder which is great for framing quick shots in the street.  For anything more exacting I would generally use the live view screen.  I know you said you do not like add-on viewfinders, but even with it attached (which it always is for me) the camera is still very easy to slip into a jacket pocket and is very discrete.
For reference my other main camera is a 1DS3.  I also have Panasonic GH2 and range of lenses, which sort of straddles the usage between the Ricoh and Canons.

Jim
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on January 07, 2014, 05:33:52 am
Thanks Jim, but a fixed 28mm equivalent is too wide for me for what I want to do with it.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Jim Pascoe on January 07, 2014, 06:56:05 am
Thanks Jim, but a fixed 28mm equivalent is too wide for me for what I want to do with it.

Yes, compromises, compromises - it's always the same with cameras - and bicycles, and cars too - they all have their specialised niches.  Lots of good all-rounders but that means you need a cupboard full (or garage).  Not sure if I have more cameras or bicycles!

Jim
Title: The NEX _name_ is gone, but not the Sony E mount APS-C format system
Post by: BJL on January 07, 2014, 11:54:23 am
If you paid attention to the announcement you linked to, you will notice that the new cameras carry the model designation 'ILCE-' , in keeping with the new A7- series, all E/FE mount compatible.   All NEX models carry, unsurprisingly, the prefix 'NEX-'.
As fas as I can tell, this is simply a renaming: having abandoned all bodies with mirrors, Sony is now using the naming "alpha"  or "A" and "ILCE" for all its interchangeable lens cameras. (Aside: given that "alpha" originally referred to the SLR lens mount inherited from Minolta, this is a bit confusing!)

I see nothing in this name change that suggests any end of support, so I think you are overly pessimistic with this:
... the message is clear – don't hold your breath for any future NEX firmware/feature upgrades.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Deep on January 07, 2014, 02:04:37 pm
As I read what your needs are and what you use as your main camera, an obvious choice for a light travel travel camera comes to mind.  It's one that frequently gets bashed on the internet by people who don't understand it but it must be near perfect for your needs.  Of course, I am talking about the Canon G1X.  I have used one for around two years  It is so good that I have realised that I use it in preference to my DSLR, even when I have both cameras with me.  Part of that is laziness but it shows how good the output of the G1X is.

I think you really should try one.  The camera compares in size to the Fuji X100 and is considerably more compact than a Sony NEX7.  The lens covers a super-useful range and is truly outstanding, being as good as any "L" zoom (and better than some) and way better than any NEX zoom.  The sensor is also really nice but you can't leave it to the camera's jpeg engine.  A simple preset in Lightroom on import and I find the files are clean, very detailed (I often gasp when I zoom in, true story) and have nice tonal transitions and good dynamic range.  And the autofocus seems bullet-proof and dead accurate, even in poor light.

Ok, no electronic viewfinder and the optical one is a bit pessimistic (you find yourself cropping a bit until you learn it), and the close-focus can be annoying (unless you programme a position on the mode dial to keep in the close focus mode) but those drawbacks have not proven to be an issue at all for me.  On the other hand, it will use your Canon flashes and the interface will feel familiar.

I use my G1X as a "bush" camera (I'm an ecologist by trade).  I am lucky in that my work takes me to some beautiful places but they are often quite dark and the terrain is rugged.  On top of my work gear, the last thing I want is a heavy camera but I also want one which can take exhibition quality photos.  The G1X fills the role very well!
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: BJL on January 07, 2014, 02:51:45 pm
There are certainly times when it is good not to hold a camera up and that was one of the things that appealed about the Nex7 and Nex6, in that they had both the EVF and the tiltable screen.
Yes, I too am very happy to have both the "eye-level" and "waist-level" composing options (in my case, with an EM5.)

Sorry, but I cannot resist asking why you have ruled out the EM5, given that it with suitable selections from the MFT lens system seem to cover your criteria.  If it is just the idea that APS-C is the smallest sensor size that will give acceptable image quality, then I suggest you test that in practice when you try a few cameras out.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Telecaster on January 07, 2014, 04:28:31 pm
My approach when looking at various rangefinder-style digicams has been to see how close I can get to the classic Zeiss (Contax) & Leica focal length sets. 21, 35, 50, 85/90 & 135mm. Now this is just me...I'm very familiar with these FLs. Fuji has most of this covered with its 14, 23, 35 & (upcoming) 56mm lenses. m43, specifically the Panasonic GX7, has it all covered with 12, 17, 25, 45 & 75mm. (If you want you can substitute a 20mm for both the 17 & 25mms, à la the Leica CL.) In this case we're not quite as wide at the short end and also a little narrower at the long end. Note that with the GX7 you can articulate the rear LCD screen and the EVF.

Pick your poison!

-Dave-
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on January 07, 2014, 04:51:46 pm
I haven't really ruled out the EM5, I just hadn't really considered it (if that makes sense...). I think part of what I'm looking for in this camera is a slightly different 'picture-taking' experience, and in my head (swirling around with all the other crap) is the thought that I don't want a camera that looks like a dslr - eg. Sony A7, Olympus EM1, EM5 etc. All of this may change as I keep looking at different cameras and thinking about what I really want to do with it (as opposed to using the 1dx system). I'm not in a rush, so I will definitely try as many options as I can.

Realistically, there are so many cameras/lenses available that can give fantastic results in the right hands, that for me it comes down to how I feel about using a particular camera. As we all know, on web forums you can find enough people who love or hate any particular camera, either the files that it produces or the way it handles or operates, so it often distills to how the photographer relates to the camera.

Jim made the analogy to bicycles (of which I share the passion) and more often than not, it's how a particular bike makes you feel - it may be how it handles, the colour, the stickers - the important thing is when you look at it, it makes you want to jump on and go for a ride.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Manoli on January 07, 2014, 05:19:28 pm
Realistically, there are so many cameras/lenses available ... that for me it comes down to how I feel about using a particular camera … so it often distills to how the photographer relates to the camera.

Nail on the head ..
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: BJL on January 07, 2014, 07:25:48 pm
I think part of what I'm looking for in this camera is a slightly different 'picture-taking' experience, and in my head (swirling around with all the other crap) is the thought that I don't want a camera that looks like a dslr - eg. Sony A7, Olympus EM1, EM5 etc.  ... there are so many cameras/lenses available that can give fantastic results in the right hands, that for me it comes down to how I feel about using a particular camera.
I have to agree with all that! For me too, the "SLR-ish" EM1 body design is a bit too bulky for what I often want to do (carry a small, light kit with small, light lenses), even if it is a good fit to adaptor mounted 4/3 SLR lenses and the new f/2.8 MFT zoom lenses. In comparison, the Panasonic GX7 seems a very rational, clean, compact body design (rather "NEX-ish") while offering a full array of composing tools, and sensor-based stabilization (Panasonic got there at last!). It is strange that so few people in this forum seems to use the GX7, and unfortunately, the poor selection of photographic shops around here do not give me the opportunity to try it out.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: JayWPage on January 07, 2014, 08:47:06 pm
Last year I bought a Sony RX1 which I took to Europe in the fall. I found this to be a very versatile and customizable camera which was a real joy to shoot. The sensor is excellent both in dynamic range and in low light performance, and the 24MP gives one plenty of opportunities to crop. It's small enough to carry in a fanny pack and when the shutter noise is turned off it's an amazing stealth camera. I use the accessory EVF and I'm able to quickly compose and focus shots. Often I've got the picture before anyone even notices that I've taken it.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Telecaster on January 07, 2014, 10:12:28 pm
...the Panasonic GX7 seems a very rational, clean, compact body design (rather "NEX-ish") while offering a full array of composing tools, and sensor-based stabilization (Panasonic got there at last!). It is strange that so few people in this forum seem to use the GX7, and unfortunately, the poor selection of photographic shops around here do not give me the opportunity to try it out.

Despite the fact that it's not as robust as the Olympus E-M1—more like a slightly smaller Fuji X-E1/2—the GX7 is my favorite m43 camera. The EVF is in the "right" place, the upper left corner, and there are no SLR pretensions. If anything it's a little too small...my right thumb sometimes hits the Disp. and Fn1 buttons by accident. Other than that it doesn't get in my way at all. With the 20mm lens mounted I can carry it in a jacket pocket. Focusing is fast, the buttons respond fast, image quality is more than good enough for a crisp 15x20" print & way more than good enough for future display on a 55" 4k TV.

Hope you get the chance to give this camera a spin.

-Dave-
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: RichDesmond on January 08, 2014, 01:45:26 pm
Another m4/3 option, if you want a really small setup, is the new GM-1. It's tiny and the 12-32 lens that comes with it is getting good reviews.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: JV on January 09, 2014, 08:32:56 pm
B&H has a pretty good deal on the NEX-7 right now:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1006332-REG/sony_nex7k_b2bdl_alpha_nex_7_digital_camera.html
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Eric Brody on January 09, 2014, 09:57:51 pm
I'm another voice for the Fuji X system. There will ALWAYS be announcements of new cameras. If you wait, you'll be waiting forever. Every electronic device you buy and now that means camera bodies, is obsolete as soon as it's made. Lenses are the closest thing in photography to a "forever" product. As an example, I recently put a 1975 Nikon Micro-Nikkor 55mm f/3.5 on my Fuji with an adapter and made some nice images with it. The current Fuji lenses are superb. Even the "kit" 18-55 zoom is impressive and their high ISO performance is extraordinary. I've shown 13x19 images made with the Fuji X E-1 with the 14mm right next to the same size images made with a D800E and a PC-E lens.
Which camera you choose is up to you, the Fuji X100S is arguably the best fixed lens camera out there, at half the price of the finder-less RX1. The X E-1 and 2 are impressive and not that much more money than the X100S. The one thing the Olympus machines have going for them, and I sold my OM-D, is the body based stabilization, but with the high ISO on the Fuji's open the lens, up the ISO and you're just fine. There are a lot of good cameras out there. Just remember, while you wait, you're not making ANY images at all. I have one word for you... Fuji. Just have fun.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on January 09, 2014, 10:28:42 pm
@JV - Thanks for the link - interestingly, there are even better offers around in Australia (I'm in Sydney) at the moment. If I were to get a Nex camera, it would be the Nex 6 (better autofocus and high iso performance) and probably pair it with the zeiss 16-70 f4. Definitely still considering the X100s or maybe and XE-2.

I'm planning to buy towards the end of march, so I still have plenty of time to look at other options. As others have said, there are plenty of good cameras out there, but most of them just don't make want to pick them up and use them (it's not always a logical, rational reason...).

As this is going to be an additional camera for me, I want it to be as simple as possible, so if it's a fixed lens like the X100s, that's fine and if it's a Nex 6 or XE-2 or something else, I will likely only get one lens for it.

And Eric, fear not. There is no shortage of cameras to shoot with now...  ;D
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: stever on January 09, 2014, 11:04:39 pm
from my experience so far, and reviews - if you're considering the NEX-6 and 16-70, I think the Panny GX7 and 12-35 is worth a look even if you don't like the 4/3 format (I don't either, but it's tolerable as a second camera).
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: JV on January 10, 2014, 10:02:11 am
As others have said, there are plenty of good cameras out there, but most of them just don't make want to pick them up and use them (it's not always a logical, rational reason...).

I know this is probably more than you want to spend but somehow the Leica M9 has been achieving this for me lately.

It obviously does not have AF, focusing is manual and slow, framing inaccurate, ISO performance not impressive, etc but somehow it seems to bring back the fun in photography...

And I do feel like picking it up and using it... more than other more capable, more usable and more modern cameras...

A used Leica M9 can be had for $3,500-4,000.

You don’t have to buy expensive Leica lenses either, some of the Zeiss lenses available in Leica mount are excellent and do not cost more than the corresponding Fuji lens
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: capital on January 12, 2014, 01:06:44 am
Hi Douglas,

Have you considered the Canon EOS-M or Canon Powershot G1X?

The EOS M can be used with existing Canon lenses via their adapter.

The Canon Powershot G1X is a highly capable APS-C sized travel camera with a 28-112 lens and the tilt-swivel design LCD, plus it fulfills your needs of not needing to budget for an additional lens, since it has been around a while it can be routinely had for around $550.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on January 12, 2014, 02:59:46 am
hi capital, nothing i have read or heard (including the opinion of a canon employee) would convince me to buy an eos m. in terms of the g1x, whilst i'm sure it's a very capable camera, it just doesn't make me want to pick it up and take photos with it.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: stever on January 12, 2014, 11:45:20 am
I so desperately wanted the EOS M to be at least somewhat useable as a backup that I bought one - and sent it right back.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: JohnAONeill on February 10, 2014, 07:47:07 pm
perhaps I can weigh in on this since I have shot with and owned both the nex 7 and more recently the Fuji XPro 1. Whilst the nex 7 is a very usable camera with nice files, for me it just didn't feel like a camera that I could connect with as a photographer. The sony nex menu system seems to me more like a camera trying to be all things to all people. Design by committee, so to speak. When I first bought the camera i really liked shooting with it but i found that anytime it was left unused for a while and I started using it again the menu kept confusing me. i have often missed the shot because I spent too much time browsing menus to find the setting I wanted. To me i just want a camera to work like a camera. The fuji is far more tactile and logical to use and allows me more time to forget about the camera and just concentrate on the subject. The final nail in the coffin for my sony nex was the very poor availability of lenses. the fuji lenses are well made, nice to use and are great performers. The price for lenses is also better than sony options (at least in ireland) which for me makes this an all round better option. Throw in the high Iso performance and the really nice fuji colours and you have a winning combination! Having read the initial negative reports online for the xpro auto focus performance I'm happy to say that with the latest V3x firmware updates the xpro1 auto focus works just fine for me. I'm glad I made the change ;-)

regards
John
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: scooby70 on February 11, 2014, 06:40:41 am
I'm phased by all this talk and criticism of menus.

Once the camera is set up how often do people actually use the menus?

Personally I only seem to use the menus for two things, for formatting the card and activating the sensor clean function. The former I do quite often but it's not a problem finding the format option as it's in the same place in the menu every time I look... and the latter I only do now and again.

Personally I find the menu organisation about as much of an issue as the colour of my socks.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: chez on February 11, 2014, 06:47:24 am
I'm phased by all this talk and criticism of menus.

Once the camera is set up how often do people actually use the menus?

Personally I only seem to use the menus for two things, for formatting the card and activating the sensor clean function. The former I do quite often but it's not a problem finding the format option as it's in the same place in the menu every time I look... and the latter I only do now and again.

Personally I find the menu organisation about as much of an issue as the colour of my socks.

I'm in the same boat as you. If that is the biggest issue with a camera...then it's a winner.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: JohnAONeill on February 11, 2014, 08:50:54 am
I'm phased by all this talk and criticism of menus.

Once the camera is set up how often do people actually use the menus?

Personally I only seem to use the menus for two things, for formatting the card and activating the sensor clean function. The former I do quite often but it's not a problem finding the format option as it's in the same place in the menu every time I look... and the latter I only do now and again.

Personally I find the menu organisation about as much of an issue as the colour of my socks.


At the end of the day any intelligent person will eventually figure out how to use any menu system and after enough use then it will become second nature. I am not disputing that, so I respect your comment as a valid argument. My position having owned and extensively used both systems if that the fuji implementation of control is far more intuitive than the nex system. Of course I am a middle aged photographer that has shot extensively with many film cameras in the past and old habits may die hard, however not everything that is new or the latest craze is necessarily better. In fact I feel that the current trend for "retro styled" cameras with manual controls is largely due to the fact that so many photographers prefer this type of camera control. I hope it continues!
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: scooby70 on February 11, 2014, 03:02:16 pm
I'm not disputing that some menu systems are better organised than others although which is best will always be a personal thing... I'm just a bit puzzled why it matters that much.

I've hardly used the menu systems of any of my digital cameras and I can honestly at the moment only think of the two previously mentioned reasons for diving into them.

When I first get a camera of course I go through the menu and set everything how I want it set but once that's done I usually only change the aperture (that's on the lens,) the shutter speed (via a dial,) the ISO (another dial,) exposure compensation (a dial,) and other than that I'll call up the magnified view (a button,) shift the focus point (a button,) review shots (a button,) maybe delete a shot (a button) format the card (the menu!) and maybe activate the cleaning function (the menu!)

The menu is a little used thing.

But that's just me :D
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on February 11, 2014, 04:01:36 pm
when i first decided to get an extra camera, the fuji was top of my list, but having used a friend's x100 for a few months, the 'old style' has lost a little bit of it's appeal for me. i have spent a little time with both the nex 6 and 7 and don't really have an issue with the menu system, so now just waiting to see what the alpha 6000 is really like. i don't really need to buy before mid-april, so plenty of time.

as many have said, the various cameras are all capable of great images and terrible images, so then it becomes a very personal choice - not every great carpenter uses the same chisel...
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: dds on February 11, 2014, 08:57:39 pm
I've used a NEX-7 for a couple of years, alongside my Nikon SLR equipment. Unlike many on this thread, I think it's a killer camera, for most uses.

I also think that after a slow start, there are now some excellent autofocus lenses available, including some fine Zeiss optics and the Sigma 60mm, which is stunning. The NEX-7 adapts well to other brands of lenses for manual focus. It has great build quality, is quiet and has no shutter lag. The built-in viewfinder is good. The tilting LCD is top notch. I find that the camera fits my hand perfectly, which is important to me. I like the ability to move autofocus to a button on the back instead of the shutter release. The files at ISO 100 are stunning with good lenses. They can make very large prints.

There are some downsides to the NEX-7. So-so focus speed. Grainy files above ISO400 (although the grain is actually pretty nice and doesn't wreck detail until higher ISOs). Crappy menus, partly redeemed by lots of button customization. Corner problems using super wide lenses of certain types. I expect the new A6000 will help with most of these.

If "street photography" means quick autofocus grab shots, I'd go with something else--probably one of the fast-focussing Oly or Panasonics. But for less hectic street work, travel, portrait, architecture and landscape, the NEX-7 is a worthy choice.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: SangRaal on February 12, 2014, 01:56:26 pm
I have used the NEX 7 almost since it's introduction as a small take along mtn biking/ ski camera( the rest of my kit is as yours canon 5d3 and 1d4). The output has been excellent as well as it's ability to use legacy M mount lenses (I have used cheap sigma lenses for skiing andf biking light and unafraid of damage). However it is an end of life product, A replacement the alpha 600 has already been previewed. That camera appears to be an combination of the best features of the Nex 6 and 7 with the latest engine from the A7 7r. I assume that sony has cleaned up some of the Nex7 issues. I also tried the sigma DP merril series as a high quality output compact but sigmapp drove me crazy and I gave up on that.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: BJL on February 12, 2014, 02:33:30 pm
I have used the NEX 7 ... However it is an end of life product, A replacement the alpha 600 has already been previewed. That camera appears to be an combination of the best features of the Nex 6 and 7 with the latest engine from the A7 7r.
The A6000 is mostly a good step forward (like the improved PDAF and frame rate with CAF), but it backtracks on some features, like EVF resolution less than that of the NEX-7. I wonder if this means that:
One crude measure of intent is how many prime lenses and faster zooms (f/2.8, or at least faster then f/5.6) are being introduced; lately Fujifilm, Olympus, and Panasonic are offering more than Canon, Nikon or Sony are for  their "APS-C" format.

P. S. To be fair to Sony, its lens system for E-mount APS-C format includes three f/4 zoom lenses, so better than Canon's or Nikon's recent efforts for that sensor size.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: werner from aurora on February 12, 2014, 06:03:40 pm
    I use a Panasonic GF3 with a powerzoom for my pocket camera and really like it. But you may want to look at Sony's newly announced A6000. This is the first nex that really got my attention.        http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/is-the-sony-a6000-superfast-hybrid-af-going-to-kill-the-slt-tech/ (http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/is-the-sony-a6000-superfast-hybrid-af-going-to-kill-the-slt-tech/)
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on February 12, 2014, 06:09:16 pm
i have been following the rumours and now announcement of the alpha 6000 and it definitely looks like the one for me.

now to see if i can get my hands on one before an overseas trip in early may...
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: werner from aurora on February 12, 2014, 07:13:50 pm
Amazon has a release date of April 20th. Good Luck!
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: archman on February 19, 2014, 03:21:17 am
I'm looking forward to the new Nikon p340.  Sharp lens, RAW and manual controls and so they say faster writing times than the 330.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: stephen.steinberg on March 16, 2014, 09:24:41 am
Michael Reichmann raises an interesting point in a blog:  he recommends a camera where various "buttons" can be set for preprogrammed settings, like a street setting on fn1 and a kids setting on fn2, etc.  But which cameras that we have been talking about--Fuji, Olympus, Sony NEX 7 have these capabilities?   
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: Deep on March 16, 2014, 04:03:01 pm
Michael Reichmann raises an interesting point in a blog:  he recommends a camera where various "buttons" can be set for preprogrammed settings, like a street setting on fn1 and a kids setting on fn2, etc.  But which cameras that we have been talking about--Fuji, Olympus, Sony NEX 7 have these capabilities?   

The Canon G1X can do that.  (I think only two of us have actually mentioned it but it remains the camera which best meets the original requirements!)
Actually, you can do that with an Olympus EM1 too, by dedicating positions on the mode dial to "Mysets".
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: OnyimBob on March 16, 2014, 05:01:46 pm
NEX 7 does.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: JGU1956 on April 18, 2014, 08:13:03 am
Douglas,

Good luck with this! It's extremely liberating to be able to use a smaller camera/system instead of a dSLR.

As others have said, the bottom line is often the "feel", the ergonomics, whether the camera is part of you (or vice versa).  There is probably no one correct answer.  To paraphrase some of Thom Hogan's recent pieces, the sensor and other technicalities are fast becoming less important in differentiating camera bodies, so just go with what feels right.

I recently did a 10 week human-powered ski tour in Norway and was VERY impressed with the Panasonic GX7.   Originally I was looking for a new high end point and shoot, and almost in spite of myself got an interchangeable system instead. It worked far better for me than my previous small camera, the Canon G1X (which has good image quality, but I never enjoyed its ergonomics or the tiny viewfinder), and the GX7's EVF was a joy to use.  If you ever plan on using a camera in snow or other bright light avoid anything lacking a decent viewfinder.  My feeling is that EVFs are now good enough, and will soon eclipse OVFs.  LCD screens are next to useless if you are in the snow or other bright light, and I am surprised more people don't grumble about them.  Not to mention the shakiness of holding the camera away from your body, and the fact that if you wear glasses for reading an LCD screen is hard to read.

One of the big things in favour of any m43 system is that if you buy good lenses now, you can upgrade your m43 body in the future but still use the lenses.  Some of the non-m43 systems appear not to have a good range of lenses so you might be forced into using legacy glass with adaptors, which it seems can be less than optimal (though I have no personal experience here).  The only obvious gap I can see in m43 lenses now is the need for a quality wide angle prime.

Having said that, when skiing (or bushwalking, an Australian word for hiking) I want versatility with low weight, so I usually limit myself to a wide zoom and a standard zoom- the quality is quite good, but not as good as if I'd used primes. Always compromises!

One more thing- if you're looking to customise buttons, the GX7 has lots of scope for that.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: stamper on April 18, 2014, 10:37:50 am
+1 to the comments about the GX7. I bought one a few weeks ago primarily for street shooting. Impressed by the camera and the 14-40 and 45-150 lenses I bought. The handling is is spot on. My only slightly niggling gripe is that I like to use AF-ON and AE lock but it is not possible to map them to buttons that that fingers can easily reach. All other functions can be mapped or banks can be set and a turn of the knob on top can mean they are easily used. I am a happy shooter. BTW I bought an adaptor and can use my SLR lens that have an aperture ring in manual mode.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: douglas frost on April 18, 2014, 06:34:38 pm
well, i ended up buying a sony alpha 6000 four weeks ago and so far i'm really enjoying using it.

i got it with the sony zeiss 24 f1.8 and the sony 50 f1.8 oss (which was on a special deal for $150 off). the zeiss 24 is a great walkaround lens, but the 50 is a real surprise in terms of performance per dollar.

the camera itself is easy to use; the menu system is reasonably straight forward although i'm still fine-tuning the settings. sony's manuals however are hopeless. some parts are clear, but other parts only give you vague clues as to what settings do, so be prepared to spend time on trial-and-error.

there is no doubt the sony is capable of capturing great images (operator dependent...). i am having to adapt the way i shoot with it compared to my 1dx, although nothing major. on the plus side, i don't need as many muscles.

in terms of use, it won't be replacing my dslr - i'm taking both on a trip to paris in two weeks time, but a multi-city trip in december/january with my kids will see only the sony taken along. for work, the dslr system will remain the go-to option, but for general use ('always in my bag' and family stuff) the sony is a welcome new tool.
Title: Re: New travel/street camera
Post by: werner from aurora on April 20, 2014, 12:05:31 am
    Glad to hear you got it before your trip. Please share some pics when you get back, or at least your thoughts. My daughter will be going off to University next year and this is the camera I was thinking of sending her off with. (a tradition my father started with me).