Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Compact System Cameras => Topic started by: jhemp on December 20, 2013, 04:46:56 PM

Title: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: jhemp on December 20, 2013, 04:46:56 PM
I must say I'm feeling pretty low right now.  I cannot fathom why Sony left out the option of an Electronic first curtain shutter on the a7r to reduce shutter shake.   What is the point of a 36mp camera then??? I have found over a week of shooting with the camera it has been unreliable working from a tripod shooting at lower shutter speeds, 160th and lower.  Sometimes it spits out good shots in that shutter range, but it misses more.  I always work slow with my cameras, and am very tedious about nailing focus, and if I'm not sure I focus bracket.  I just cannot count on the camera to produce, therefore it has to go, it is not a pro system!  It's too bad, because when the camera does deliver it's wonderful.

Example, yesterday I was taking pictures of a church exterior and I took three identical images with identical camera settings.  I had manual focus on and 10 sec delay and it was super still outside.  All three were at iso 100 1/80th @ f8.  Two of them where slightly blurred and the third was ok.  Very frustrating!!

Sorry to come here and vent, I don't want to sound like a troll but I figured people on this forum should know my experience.  So I'm sticking with my Sony a99 for a bit longer.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Dale_Cotton2 on December 21, 2013, 04:48:24 PM
Just to be sure: have you tried things like a beanbag and foot stirrup to damp vibrations?
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: uaiomex on December 21, 2013, 05:04:18 PM
I'm holding my purchase till this thing is solved or better yet, I'll wait for another more advance camera. Good thing, I can wait.                                                                                                                                              

Eduardo
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: jhemp on December 21, 2013, 05:41:39 PM
I did not try a bean bag or foot stirrup.  I followed the same methodology I have always used since shooting 4x5. If I have to go beyond a sturdy tripod with careful thought put into getting solid footing and remote release then the camera is too fussy for my use and not consistent    This is the first camera I've used that shutter vibration continues to be an issue even after I have taken careful care to mitigate the problem.  That said, the shutter vibration only seemed to happen at certain shutter speeds 1/80 - 1/160th is what I noticed, and it doesn't happen every time in those speeds either.  You can also see on some online sites that clearly show the same issue I was having, especially Llyod Chambers.    Shutter blur is small but just knowing its there bugs me to know end!

When Sony puts this sensor in a camera with Inbody Image Stabilization and EFCS like the a99 then I'll jump all over it.  I could care less about form factor, I'll go with another DSLR or A7 type camera.

Jay
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: stever on December 21, 2013, 10:43:01 PM
I won't dump on Sony - over the last 4 years (and probably longer) as every camera manufacturer has had one or more instances of - did anyone review the design and check the numbers? and - did anyone test the product?  However, it does not inspire confidence in Sony engineering or actual photographic testing and use of the product. 

And another reason why I'm not first in line to buy the newest greatest.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Paul2660 on December 22, 2013, 09:46:54 AM
You can find more testing, on the Lloyd Chambers pay site.  He had done the usual detailed tests that he does and posted the empirical results.  Basically it seems due to the shutter design of the A7r, which is different than the A7, you can possibly have shutter vibration which can effect your image. 

Testers on this site and the crew over at www.getdpi.com don't seem to feel it's as big a issue as some are finding it to be a slight problem others not. 

Not too sure I agree with some of the answers that state, "it's basically a 36MP sensor and vibrations are just a part of the deal".  Having a D800e and D800,  and well over 20K exposures between the two, vibration issues have yet to show up for me.  This is true throughout the entire shutter speed range especially in the ranges that seem to be problematic.  I would also state that hand holding/ or on tripod doesn't seem to matter.   

However it's just one of those issues that everyone has to judge for themselves I guess.

Paul Caldwell
 
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: KirbyKrieger on December 22, 2013, 10:25:03 AM
Article on Sony Alpha Rumors (http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-shutter-vibration-issue-explained-by-joseph-holmes) as well.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: michael on December 22, 2013, 11:13:14 AM
I never saw the problem because I never shot with any lens over 90mm.

My bad.

The problem sure seems real though.

Michael
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Manoli on December 22, 2013, 11:52:31 AM
I never saw the problem because I never shot with any lens over 90mm.

The issue is reported with both 55mm sony-zeiss and the 50/2 APO-SUMMICRON. To put this into context, Diglloyd on a 180mm lens, calculates a ~ 1pixel blur (equating to a camera displacement of about 5 microns) in landscape orientation. On the blog he doesn't disclose at what shutter speeds the issue is noticeable.

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20131220_1-Sony55f1_8-aseries-RedBarn.html
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Herbc on December 22, 2013, 11:59:18 AM
Actually, Lloyd has come out with a statement that he has contacted Sony and in the meantime he finds 1/200 or higher to not have the problem.

Considering all the focus issues Nikon had with the D800, this does not seem like a permanent problem.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Manoli on December 22, 2013, 12:11:42 PM
Actually, Lloyd has come out with a statement that he has contacted Sony and in the meantime he finds 1/200 or higher to not have the problem.

Before this turns into an M8-revisited issue, Michael's article was neither a review of the A7r nor a review of of Leica M lenses. " Rather, this is just a report on how a specific set of seven lenses (the ones I own) work together with the new A7r. "

Jim Kasson is testing and reporting extensively on the vibration issue on his blog - 'The Last Word'.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: photodan on December 22, 2013, 05:29:33 PM
I haven't noticed any shutter vibration issues when using the camera on a tripod with the 35mm f/2.8 Sony lens, but I sure did with the 70-400mm zoom (shot via the alpha to e-mount adapter). I returned the zoom. 

I wonder if an image stabilized lens like the forthcoming 70-200mm f/4 Sony-E-mount IS lens would mitigate the vibration issue or not.

It amazes me that Sony would put such technological creativity and skill into a key product and not test some basic factors, like, hey Sony, how about shooting with a long lens at various shutter speeds and then looking at the results carefully?

The shutter of the A7r is different from that of the A7 and that would seem to be a reason to focus some testing attention on the shutter, including the effects of vibration.  I wonder if they did do this and either didnít test carefully or even worse, that they thought the results (of a long lens shot at speeds near 1/125) were acceptable.  Then again, how about the pro photographers doing the beta testing on camera prototypes?

Come to think of it, I wonder if Sony has been asked by any of the news media (camera magazines and other) camera reviewers why the shutter is different on the two cameras and what the relative advantages and disadvantages might be. Well, Iím sure many companies wouldnít speak to disadvantages, but surely someone has tried to ask the question. Perhaps no useful answer were forthcoming.

With slightly long lenses - those that donít require a tripod foot, perhaps using my old Pentax 6x7 shutter vibration mitigation technique might help in some of the time.  It only worked with a tripod and was not totally consistent, but it did make a significant difference.  For shutter speeds from 1/4 to 1/60 of a second (the biggest problem area). I used to use mirror lock up and then put both hands on top of the camera body and push down with steady pressure, and using a finger on my right hand push the shutter button. After the exposure was over I would then release the pressure. Itís not really a good solution however, and I hope that Sony comes up with a firmware change that will reduce or eliminate the issue.

I am suffering a little bit of buyerís remorse because of this issue, and it is compounded (although to a minor extent) by the possibility that the raw files are cooked via compression (or factors that results in various minor artifacts, such as circular bands of color shifts that can be sometimes seen when cranking up the contrast and saturation to a very large non-practical degree).  Iíve personally seen a little bit of these artifacts however I havenít found them to be of any significance at all (yet, at any rate). But, if the files are truly lossy compressed, then what on earth was Sony thinking? The a7r is a 36mp camera, without an anti-aliasing filter, with contrast detection focus only (therefore moderate to slow focus speed only  should be expected; surely this is not meant to be a camera for sports shooting), therefore the main objective of the camera would be to obtain the highest image quality possible, right? And therefore, while a high frame rates would be nice, it shouldn't get in the way of allowing the highest image quality to be obtained. So, then why bother compressing the raw files? 

This stuff just makes no sense.
 
As I write this I am getting myself more and more ticked, and probably losing perspective. But, combined with the fact that, as good and wonderfully functional as the EVF is, I much prefer looking through a good optical viewfinder of a DSLR, and I have the urge to tank the Sony and go back to a full frame DSLR.  But if I switch back then thereís the problem with having to deal with large and heavy lenses that are difficult to manually focus accurately, having to fine tune the micro focus of each AF lens;  the lousy live view of the Nikon D800E,  or the lower resolution and poorer dynamic range of the Canons. Hey, itís no wonder more and more people are using just camera phones.  No spending mega bucks and toting separate cameras around, no worries about exact focus or depth of field, sharpness optional, general image quality an esoteric subject,  speed of shooting not important, no complicated processing of files,  no prints to be made,  no nothing  :-) 
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: algrove on December 22, 2013, 05:40:50 PM
My shutter vibrations on long lenses were so bad that I sent it back. I even had shutter vibration ruin Leica R 15/2.8 shots. Side by side with the M240 there IS a BIG difference to me.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: bill t. on December 22, 2013, 05:51:40 PM
Wait a minute, how long was I telling myself "wow here's a killer camera that FINALLY beats the old mirror-slap bugaboo!"  This just isn't fair, and to think I waited for this!  Oh well, off to order the D800, delivery by xmas at B&H.  One can always build multipoint supports out of plywood boxes etc but that sort of messes with the tiny-is-better paradigm.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Paul2660 on December 22, 2013, 06:10:23 PM
You will love the D800/e.  Free shipping is a great deal too.

Paul
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: vjbelle on December 23, 2013, 08:00:25 AM
The problem is real..... as has been reported by many.  But.... it should be fixable.  I'm encouraged by the lack of any vibration with shutter speeds greater than 1 second and by 1/250 its all gone for me and my Leica 90mm Summicron.  Sony asked me for sample files which were sent last week.  So..... they are aware and hopefully a fix is on the way.

Victor
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: philbond87 on December 23, 2013, 10:26:54 AM
I don't doubt that the issue is real. The shutter is loud and clunky Ė we had this issue with some SLRs (35mm and MF).
However I've not yet been able to recreate it myself with the following gear Ė at any shutter speed:


I realize that the majority of people reporting problems are using longer lenses, however this is what I shoot with on this camera. I will not be using it with longer lenses.
I know that for many this will not be the case but I offer my experience to help others in making their decisions.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Wayne Fox on December 23, 2013, 05:16:28 PM
 I cannot fathom why Sony left out the option of an Electronic first curtain shutter on the a7r to reduce shutter shake.  

I believe itís inherent in the design of this particular sensor, as the d800 does not have a electronic first curtain either.  The d800 shutter seems to have more dampening, but the main difference is the shutter does not have to close before opening like it does on the sony. This is why live view focusing in place of mirror up does not work on a d800 but works better than MLU on a Canon camera.

It seems some firmware changes could help this for some shooters by adding a delay between the close of the shutter and start of the exposure.  Also having the shutter close at the beginning of a self timer cycle might be an option.

But as much as I like this camera so far, Iím getting more and more concerned with this issue, and believe sony maybe should have designed a better shutter.  Or figured out a new sensor that allows electronic first curtain.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: uaiomex on December 23, 2013, 09:38:28 PM
+1


I believe itís inherent in the design of this particular sensor, as the d800 does not have a electronic first curtain either.  The d800 shutter seems to have more dampening, but the main difference is the shutter does not have to close before opening like it does on the sony. This is why live view focusing in place of mirror up does not work on a d800 but works better than MLU on a Canon camera.

It seems some firmware changes could help this for some shooters by adding a delay between the close of the shutter and start of the exposure.  Also having the shutter close at the beginning of a self timer cycle might be an option.

But as much as I like this camera so far, Iím getting more and more concerned with this issue, and believe sony maybe should have designed a better shutter.  Or figured out a new sensor that allows electronic first curtain.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Chris_Brown on December 23, 2013, 10:23:07 PM
Article on Sony Alpha Rumors (http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-shutter-vibration-issue-explained-by-joseph-holmes) as well.

FTA:
Quote
Further, Mike and I have shown that attaching a certain amount of weight to the camera can solve the problem completely. We are building 24-ounce weights (including the weight of a small, Arca-Swiss type screw-knob clamp, the L-plate and a metal block) to connect to the base of the camera when using longer lenses, especially when they are not native lenses with the camera connected directly to the tripod. I tested a 26-ounce weight, screwed to the bottom of the camera for horizontal exposures and found it highly effective.

For its price (among other criteria), this solution is unacceptable. One of the beauties of the camera is its small size and low weight.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 23, 2013, 10:51:11 PM
FTA:
For its price (among other criteria), this solution is unacceptable. One of the beauties of the camera is its small size and low weight.

Indeed, unless I got the conversion wrong, this adds 737 gr to the weight of the a7r, making it a 1202 gr body, which is the weight of a D3x.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re:
Post by: TorbjŲrn Tapani on December 24, 2013, 03:38:09 AM
What if you use long lens support. Or could you connect the camera to the tripod foot on a lens. Would that reduce or eliminate a7r shutter shake? Do you really have to add that much more mass?
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: scooby70 on December 24, 2013, 09:29:48 AM
FTA:
For its price (among other criteria), this solution is unacceptable. One of the beauties of the camera is its small size and low weight.

Price? Isn't this camera cheap for a FF digital camera?
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: barryfitzgerald on December 24, 2013, 11:04:15 AM
Price? Isn't this camera cheap for a FF digital camera?

It's about £1700 where I am so nope I don't consider that cheap.
Being honest I'm puzzled as to why there is no electronic first curtain as they have this on their SLT models and the A7

Looks like the A7 is the better buy right now unless Sony can fix the problem.
These "shutter shock/shake/vibration" issue seems to be spread across other makers, I've read plenty of reports of micro 4/3 users having issue on the OM-D EM-5, not sure about the EM-1 or Panasonic and I've not read any Fuji owners kicking up about it.

Have to wonder if makers are doing adequate "field testing" of these cameras because it's something that shouldn't arise at all.
Title: Re:
Post by: TorbjŲrn Tapani on December 24, 2013, 11:19:04 AM
I was surprised it was closer to D600 than 800 in price. So I'd say you get a lot of sensor for the price. Shutter shake is inherent to FP shutter and no electronic first curtain shutter seems to be tied to the design of the sensor. I think the A7 was the camera Sony designed but the R is what most people think they want so Sony offered it as an option.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on December 24, 2013, 03:18:10 PM
These "shutter shock/shake/vibration" issue seems to be spread across other makers, I've read plenty of reports of micro 4/3 users having issue on the OM-D EM-5, not sure about the EM-1 or Panasonic and I've not read any Fuji owners kicking up about it.

Have to wonder if makers are doing adequate "field testing" of these cameras because it's something that shouldn't arise at all.

I've never seen "shutter shock" with the E-M5 (or E-M1) though I have seen anecdotal reports of it. I'm mostly skeptical, though I don't completely dismiss it. Given a mechanical shutter mechanism some degree of vibration is bound to be possible under some conditions. And given the degree of measurbating scrutiny cameras are now subject to, if anything dares interfere with our worship of the sharpness god it'll be identified (and vilified). Now even with that bit of sarcasm I agree that issues of this sort, where they actually exist in a repeatably quantifiable manner, should be caught before the cameras reach the marketplace.

-Dave-
Title: Re:
Post by: Deep on December 24, 2013, 05:39:05 PM
I was surprised it was closer to D600 than 800 in price. So I'd say you get a lot of sensor for the price. Shutter shake is inherent to FP shutter and no electronic first curtain shutter seems to be tied to the design of the sensor. I think the A7 was the camera Sony designed but the R is what most people think they want so Sony offered it as an option.
You might have nailed it!  I spent a bit of time with both last week and the A7 was so much better, in terms of focus, shutter movement and sensor (in that the one advantage of the 7R sensor is barely discernible while the massive files are most certainly noticeable later).  Yet I was told they had been selling 7R at four times the rate of the 7.

What i found even more interesting was that the A7/28-70 lens combo is cheaper than the EM1/12-40 combo.  Not that that is relevant to this discussion per se but it puts the Sony price in perspective.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: GregShapps on December 24, 2013, 05:53:18 PM
Is this shutter shake only occurring during hand holding or is it so bad that it occurs while on a tripod or camera stand?   The more I try to read about this camera the more confused I become.   
Title: Re:
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 24, 2013, 05:54:12 PM
Yet I was told they had been selling 7R at four times the rate of the 7.

And Canon executives think nobody needs/wants more than 22mp... :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: philbond87 on December 24, 2013, 05:56:47 PM
One thing they (we (I)) want more than and increased number of pixels is increased dynamic range, to use with Canon's TS-E lenses.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: peterottaway on December 24, 2013, 07:14:12 PM
Canon may be attempting to claim a virtue out of their current technological circumstances. As Canon have a large market share they have grown complacent. They were relying on  previous decisions on sensor development in line with what they had and maximizing profit from this.

Plus relying on a large degree of inertia in the buying public to get them through any unpleasant surprises.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: bcooter on December 24, 2013, 08:05:06 PM
I've never seen "shutter shock" with the E-M5 (or E-M1) though I have seen anecdotal reports of it. I'm mostly skeptical, though I don't completely dismiss it. Given a mechanical shutter mechanism some degree of vibration is bound to be possible under some conditions. And given the degree of measurbating scrutiny cameras are now subject to, if anything dares interfere with our worship of the sharpness god it'll be identified (and vilified). Now even with that bit of sarcasm I agree that issues of this sort, where they actually exist in a repeatably quantifiable manner, should be caught before the cameras reach the marketplace.

-Dave-

Dave, Dave, Dave,

You'll never convince anyone that a smaller sensor produces a better look or for that matter file.

I've been going around during our holiday shopping and shooting some scenics of London for my parents.   I'm not a scenic guy and just want to make them some pretty snapshots

Last night on the Thames, shooting with the panasonic Leica 25 across the river I did snap and later looked at it at 100%.  Way out on the bridge was a subject.  Not super detailed but in relation to the image would be about a small sharpie dot on the rear lcd, the subject is that small in the frame.

I looked at it and could tell the subject was portly, wore  and was I think was a security guard from the patches on this jacket.

I hit info and saw that I shot it at f 1.4 and 1/6th of a second.  Not 1/60th, 1/6th hand held and I'm pretty steady but not that steady, so the olympus stabilization clicked in or i got lucky.

Also in regards to price, shoot the em1 and the new olympus zoom and then try the sony because I did and I bought the em-1.

So to each his own, but I'd try it first.

IMO

BC
Title: Re:
Post by: bcooter on December 24, 2013, 08:28:57 PM
And Canon executives think nobody needs/wants more than 22mp... :)

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard,

I can't wait until Canon comes out with a 50mpx camera for $900 and you have to spend $3,000 having that Nikon Logo removed from your arm.

I'll chip in 500 bucks if you send me some snap shots when you do it.

Happy Holidays.

BC
Title: Re:
Post by: allegretto on December 24, 2013, 09:41:53 PM
Bernard,

I can't wait until Canon comes out with a 50mpx camera for $900 and you have to spend $3,000 having that Nikon Logo removed from your arm.

I'll chip in 500 bucks if you send me some snap shots when you do it.

Happy Holidays.

BC

Now that's funny...!

What will they have to talk about?

It seems that folks think Canon lacks the Engineering Dept to do a tight chip, which I doubt. As always, the Accounting dept rules. Would bet that once they see a certain level of interest/acceptance/desire for Big Counts they will do a one-up. Happens all the time.

It is interesting to note that Sony has issues with such a device. Ironic that Sony makes the chip in the Nikon. Shows that you can have a lot of Engineers and still not control the process.

Engineer joke; anyone can make a machine that works, it takes an Engineer to make a machine that just barely works...
Title: Re:
Post by: Deep on December 24, 2013, 10:00:08 PM
And Canon executives think nobody needs/wants more than 22mp... :)

Cheers,
Bernard

They're half right, in that case. Virtually no one needs more than maybe around 8mp.  Lots of people think they want much more but very few need more.  Once you get to about 18mp, you'd be a manic pixel peeper to see the gain from even doubling resolution.  However, the internet is full of people who love to claim otherwise and that must be one source of marketing information which drives manufacturers on.

As for this business of knocking Canon sensors as dated, lacking dynamic range, being noisy or not having enough megapixels, well, they still sell truckloads of Canons with stunningly good sensors, which satisfy a huge range of people from pros to snappers.  Some Sony sensors are mildly better than some Canon sensors in some situations.  Yawn.  No one makes a big sensor that is bad anymore.  The sensor in the A7 is particularly sweet but not that much better than anything else that it would make me buy into an incomplete system (and I am seriously in the market at the moment).
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on December 25, 2013, 02:24:31 PM
Engineer joke; anyone can make a machine that works, it takes an Engineer to make a machine that just barely works...

 :D  My first programming teacher, Mrs. Wilhetta Hoyer in 10th grade (US high school), had a poster on the wall of her classroom that said: "To err is human. But to really &@*! things up requires a computer."

I find that all my current digi cameras, from the 645D down to m43, can resolve more detail than I can fit into a 15x20" print. That's as big as I go aside from the occasional stitched pano on roll paper. Not that I'm arguing against putting more photosites on sensors...not at all. I want to see the companies involved push their tech as hard & far as they can. There are some benefits too from capturing at a high sampling rate & then downsampling. In particular with the Pentax I can underexpose by a stop at ISO 1600, then output the processed RAW data, with minimal NR applied, as a downsampled TIF for printing or display. This gives me a totally usable EI 3200 with that camera.

What I'm still waiting for with electronic tech is the dynamic range of the best neg films combined with the tonal gradation of the best transparencies. Not there yet but getting closer.

-Dave-
Title: Re:
Post by: eronald on December 25, 2013, 03:02:48 PM
James,

 What is it about London air that switches on the sarcasm gene?
 Anyway, Nikon body rubber seems to fall off after a few years so Bernard is in no danger of "permanent protection" ;)
 BTW, shoot me an email - edmundronald at gmail dot com. I seem to have located a Leica guy who might know a Leica guy ...


Allegretto,
  It's pretty clear that Canon are going to revamp their base sensor tech, and that they already have some candidates. It's anyone's guess what they'll choose to sell, and whether they will choose to invest in their own production equipment (steppers) to do make it.

Edmund

Bernard,

I can't wait until Canon comes out with a 50mpx camera for $900 and you have to spend $3,000 having that Nikon Logo removed from your arm.

I'll chip in 500 bucks if you send me some snap shots when you do it.

Happy Holidays.

BC
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 25, 2013, 04:00:20 PM
Hi,

Regarding the DR thing I would suggest it's best to use HDR, but that may be implemented on chip. Fuji had once a sensor with a dual set of sensels that were usen to extend DR. On the other hand, R is also limited by lens flare, to much light is bouncing around in the lens to be able to fully utilise the DR of the sensor.

Small pixels are good to reduce aliasing artifacts, se samples here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/78-aliasing-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

Best regards
Erik

:D  My first programming teacher, Mrs. Wilhetta Hoyer in 10th grade (US high school), had a poster on the wall of her classroom that said: "To err is human. But to really &@*! things up requires a computer."

I find that all my current digi cameras, from the 645D down to m43, can resolve more detail than I can fit into a 15x20" print. That's as big as I go aside from the occasional stitched pano on roll paper. Not that I'm arguing against putting more photosites on sensors...not at all. I want to see the companies involved push their tech as hard & far as they can. There are some benefits too from capturing at a high sampling rate & then downsampling. In particular with the Pentax I can underexpose by a stop at ISO 1600, then output the processed RAW data, with minimal NR applied, as a downsampled TIF for printing or display. This gives me a totally usable EI 3200 with that camera.

What I'm still waiting for with electronic tech is the dynamic range of the best neg films combined with the tonal gradation of the best transparencies. Not there yet but getting closer.

-Dave-
Title: Re:
Post by: Vladimirovich on December 25, 2013, 04:11:01 PM
well, they still sell truckloads of Canons with stunningly good sensors
the word "stunningly" does not belong here... they do their work, but they really don't really "stun" anybody... 1Dx sensor might be competetive in its department, but that's all about it.
Title: Re:
Post by: Deep on December 26, 2013, 02:48:39 PM
the word "stunningly" does not belong here... they do their work, but they really don't really "stun" anybody... 1Dx sensor might be competetive in its department, but that's all about it.
Couldn't disagree with you more.  As I look around various photographer websites, some galleries etc., I see more images I would call "stunning" made with Canon sensors than any other brand.  It's not that the Canon sensors are better than Sony sensors (they're not), nor that the images couldn't have been made with Sony sensors.  It's more that the Canon sensors are massively capable and not the limiting factor for gifted photographers who are very good technically and artistically.  You pretty much can't buy a bad sensor in a big camera any more.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: jensputzier on December 28, 2013, 11:47:25 AM
I have just unpacked the A7r and the Metabones adapter and due to lack of decent weather was only able to make some quick shots indoors. Handheld there is no visible problem at 1/80th with either the Otus or the 135mm/2.0 Zeiss lens. I do not have a Sony lens yet. Probably there is a problem if you mount the combo on a tripod rather than supporting everything by your hands.
Title: Re:
Post by: scooby70 on December 28, 2013, 02:51:04 PM
Couldn't disagree with you more...
You pretty much can't buy a bad sensor in a big camera any more.

I don't think there's really any doubt that Canon are not at this moment at the cutting edge in APS-C or "full frame" sensor design and whilst it's true that you'd have to try very hard to buy a bad serious camera these days that doesn't mean that they're all equal as clearly they're not, not on the test bench anyway.

What the photographer does with the kit is another matter.
Title: Re:
Post by: Telecaster on December 28, 2013, 03:10:55 PM
I don't think there's really any doubt that Canon are not at this moment at the cutting edge in APS-C or "full frame" sensor design and whilst it's true that you'd have to try very hard to buy a bad serious camera these days that doesn't mean that they're all equal as clearly they're not, not on the test bench anyway.

What's cool is that the differences amongst the top cameras are, unless you're pushing the extremes, increasingly irrelevant in real-world use. This means, of course, that pedantic "which one is best?" debates will only intensify.   :D

Quote
What the photographer does with the kit is another matter.

IMO there's a looming crisis in the photography world, perhaps best summed up by the following: "Oh shit, I can no longer blame my gear for my mediocre pics! What am I gonna do?!"   :P

-Dave-
Title: Re:
Post by: allegretto on December 28, 2013, 05:52:47 PM
I don't think there's really any doubt that Canon are not at this moment at the cutting edge in APS-C or "full frame" sensor design and whilst it's true that you'd have to try very hard to buy a bad serious camera these days that doesn't mean that they're all equal as clearly they're not, not on the test bench anyway.

What the photographer does with the kit is another matter.

yeah, sure, fine

it's like guys sitting around arguing whether Porsche or Ferrari makes a better sports car... depends on the loose nut behind the wheel...

just as either car is better than it's driver in all but a very rare case...
Title: Re:
Post by: TMARK on December 28, 2013, 09:18:13 PM
My advice to people asking "what camera is best?" is always this:  just get a 5d2 and get on with it.  Make pictures. 

Not that the 5d2 is the best, just that it works, has pretty colors out of almost any converter.  Its a very capable camera, better than the people asking which camera to buy.

Couldn't disagree with you more.  As I look around various photographer websites, some galleries etc., I see more images I would call "stunning" made with Canon sensors than any other brand.  It's not that the Canon sensors are better than Sony sensors (they're not), nor that the images couldn't have been made with Sony sensors.  It's more that the Canon sensors are massively capable and not the limiting factor for gifted photographers who are very good technically and artistically.  You pretty much can't buy a bad sensor in a big camera any more.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: jhemp on January 01, 2014, 03:26:01 PM
The shutter shake was happening with the camera mounted to a carbon fiber tripod.  The issue of shutter blur was happening around 1/100 sec.  I was using the native sony/zeiss 35 2.8.  Then after researching online I came across Llyod Chambers site and he was experiencing the same issue but with the 55mm native lens.  It came down to this, I don't have the mental energy to wonder if a shot came out a little soft because of me or the camera?  I want only one variable to blame for botched shots and thats me!
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: philbond87 on January 01, 2014, 09:21:23 PM
What size and type of tripod and head are you using... and how are you using it?
I ask because I've not had any shutter shake issues with my rig Ė using up to an 85mm Canon EF lens with the Metabones adapter.

I don't doubt that you (and others) are experiencing vibration issues but I do wonder why some are and some aren't.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Herbc on January 04, 2014, 02:29:30 PM
I recommend the write up that Joe Holmes did on SonyAlpha rumors, in which he got rid of the vibration in telephoto lenses by attaching a weight to the bottom of the camera when the lens was supported by the tripod.  Pretty thorough analysis, and led me to not worry about short focal lengths and handheld.
Title: Re:
Post by: Glenn NK on January 07, 2014, 12:38:40 PM
Engineer joke; anyone can make a machine that works, it takes an Engineer to make a machine that just barely works...

What many people don't realize is that this is what engineering is all about - designing something to the bare minimum that meets the design criteria.

Many years ago in 3rd year electrical engineering school (I later switched to structural), one of our first lab assignments was to build a simple LRC radio receiver.  The prof came by and I asked him why we couldn't do such and such.  His reply was embarrassing and one of the best engineering lessons I ever received; "You have to decide if you want to be an engineer or a physicist.  The engineer's job is to design a radio that everyone can afford and that will satisfy the user's requirements.  The physicist on a research project may have to build a "one-of a kind" radio for a highly specialized purpose that may cost $10,000, but it can't be mass produced because no one can afford to buy it."

When I design a building, I pick the elements that just satisfy the loading requirements - adding additional strength is poor engineering - because engineering is also about economics.   Many fools can over-design something that won't fail.

While we marvel at the engineering done by the Roman Empire, most of their structures were over-designed - they outlasted their civilization by a couple of thousand years.

Most of our cameras outlast their usefulness - who wants an 8 MP camera body?  Mine works as well as the day I bought it and it's been superseded by four or five newer bodies.

Glenn
Title: Re:
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 08, 2014, 05:09:30 PM
What many people don't realize is that this is what engineering is all about - designing something to the bare minimum that meets the design criteria.


so what your saying is someone at sony blew it and didnít get the design criteria right, because anyone buying a 36mp sensor is extremely sensitive about image quality and resolution ... thatís why they bought the camera.
Title: Re:
Post by: Chris_Brown on January 08, 2014, 07:22:09 PM
. . .  someone at sony blew it and didnít get the design criteria right, because anyone buying a 36mp sensor is extremely sensitive about image quality and resolution
+1
Title: Re:
Post by: Telecaster on January 08, 2014, 08:04:35 PM
so what your saying is someone at sony blew it and didnít get the design criteria right, because anyone buying a 36mp sensor is extremely sensitive about image quality and resolution ... thatís why they bought the camera.

Well, most people rather than "anyone." I just bought an A7r, not because I care about 36mp per se but because (among other things) I want to experiment with various downsampling options while still leaving myself with the option of making a crisp 12x21" or so print (16:9 aspect ratio). My aim is to optimize tonal resolution rather than spatial...there will be plenty of the latter anyway.

-Dave-
Title: Re:
Post by: allegretto on January 08, 2014, 10:14:40 PM
Oh, the Engineer who told me that line explained just like you once he got around to explaining. He just stated it matter-of-factly and it's funny when it casually comes out. Guess you could say it's about delivery.


What many people don't realize is that this is what engineering is all about - designing something to the bare minimum that meets the design criteria.

Many years ago in 3rd year electrical engineering school (I later switched to structural), one of our first lab assignments was to build a simple LRC radio receiver.  The prof came by and I asked him why we couldn't do such and such.  His reply was embarrassing and one of the best engineering lessons I ever received; "You have to decide if you want to be an engineer or a physicist.  The engineer's job is to design a radio that everyone can afford and that will satisfy the user's requirements.  The physicist on a research project may have to build a "one-of a kind" radio for a highly specialized purpose that may cost $10,000, but it can't be mass produced because no one can afford to buy it."

When I design a building, I pick the elements that just satisfy the loading requirements - adding additional strength is poor engineering - because engineering is also about economics.   Many fools can over-design something that won't fail.

While we marvel at the engineering done by the Roman Empire, most of their structures were over-designed - they outlasted their civilization by a couple of thousand years.

Most of our cameras outlast their usefulness - who wants an 8 MP camera body?  Mine works as well as the day I bought it and it's been superseded by four or five newer bodies.

Glenn
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: billy on January 10, 2014, 10:14:04 AM
I am kinda interested in the A7 with canon adaptor/lenses, this doesn't have the shutter shake problem, correct? I had read somewhere in this forum that when tested against the Oly OM1 the sony A7 had a lot of motion blur to its files as well, a different problem altogether? Inherent problem with both A7 and A7r? I know the A7r has that crazy loud shutter which seems to be causing the problem, but why would the A7 have the problem as well?
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: peterottaway on January 10, 2014, 10:47:23 AM
Have you actually tested either camera ?

The shutter noise is more noticeable then a number of recently introduced cameras but is to me not of any importance. The photographer will hear the shutter as will anyone standing next to them and who is paying attention to what the photographer is doing. So ?

As to motion blur, just ask yourself how many times when you actually find this,that it is the cameras fault ?
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: telyt on January 10, 2014, 12:59:40 PM
... I know the A7r has that crazy loud shutter ...

I was able to try a friend's A7r a few days ago and my first thought on hearing the shutter was "what's the big deal?".  The shutter didn't seem crazy loud to me.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Chris_Brown on January 10, 2014, 03:16:00 PM
Will someone please explain why this camera has a shutter. Is it actually a mechanical shutter covering the sensor?
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: vjbelle on January 10, 2014, 04:18:52 PM
Will someone please explain why this camera has a shutter. Is it actually a mechanical shutter covering the sensor?

Yes.......

Victor
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 10, 2014, 05:56:43 PM
Will someone please explain why this camera has a shutter. Is it actually a mechanical shutter covering the sensor?
Nothing new, most cameras other than digicams use a mechanical shutter to at least end the exposure, many use it for both the start and end of the exposure.  At some point in time it may be no longer necessary, but thatís how it works now.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 10, 2014, 05:58:24 PM
I was able to try a friend's A7r a few days ago and my first thought on hearing the shutter was "what's the big deal?".  The shutter didn't seem crazy loud to me.
most arenít complaining about the sound, itís the vibration when using longer glass compromising image quality ...

But the shutter to me is loud relative to other compact cameras.  

Edit:  perhaps that's not surprising, since it is quite a bit larger than other compact system cameras.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: peterottaway on January 10, 2014, 08:24:21 PM
I hate to sound like an aged auditor picking through minor lapses as if they are the end of the world problems. The A7r shutter at certain shutter speeds and with certain lens types may induce enough additional vibration to compromise image quality.

When used hand held this will be in addition to the natural shake from the photographer. On a tripod this will be like most things dependent of the quality of the tripod, the tripod head, the amount of central column extension used, whether it is the camera or the lens that is attached to the tripod etc and more etc

And of course those photographers who choose to anchor their tripod with a bag or a modified bean bag weight will wonder what most of the fuss is about
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: synn on January 13, 2014, 03:41:33 AM
This "Shutter issue" is like revisiting the D800 AF issue all over again. Tons of internet amplification, no big deal in real life for most people.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Deep on January 14, 2014, 07:13:00 PM
There's a similar thread to this on another forum about shutter shake on the Olympus  EM1.  I also hear it's quite noticeable on the Panasonic GX1.  Having just bought an EM1 (in preference to the Sony A7, which I loved, which was cheaper and lighter - work that out, oh yes, I can get long but little lenses for the Olympus!) I can confirm the issue is real.  The first body was unusable at 1/60 with any lens.  The second body I tried was better but still had the problem.  Finally I tried one out of a new shipment and it was better.  Actually, if I hadn't had the problem with the first one I might have just thought I did something wrong and got slightly fuzzy images sometimes.  It's just visible at 1/60 of a second, the worst speed.

This is relevant to this discussion because the EM1 allows you to choose between a conventional shutter like the A7r or an electronic first curtain, like the A7.  Using the latter option hugely improves the situation, which makes me think that is why the A7r is so much worse than the A7.  In use, the A7 has a smooth and fairly quiet shutter action, the A7r much less so, which is odd because the slightly higher resolution is likely to be less tolerant to shutter shake.

In the case of the EM1, a super-solid tripod (Manfrotto 058) is able to completely eliminate visible shutter shake, as seen at the pixel level.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on January 14, 2014, 08:31:16 PM
I've taken hundreds of photos with the E-M5 & E-M1 at all the "problem" shutter speeds, at various times over the past nine months, and have seen precisely nothing indicating shutter shock. I don't doubt some folks are experiencing it. But my guess is it's a sample-specific issue and not a ubiquitous one. As usual, though, 'Net discussion defaults to an all-or-nothing scenario and thus the actual facts of the matter get obscured. I wouldn't be surprised if the A7r vibration issue (which I also have yet to see but don't doubt the existence of) turns out to be as much sample variation as anything else.

-Dave-
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: bcooter on January 14, 2014, 09:51:05 PM
I've taken hundreds of photos with the E-M5 & E-M1 at all the "problem" shutter speeds, at various times over the past nine months, and have seen precisely nothing indicating shutter shock. I don't doubt some folks are experiencing it. But my guess is it's a sample-specific issue and not a ubiquitous one. As usual, though, 'Net discussion defaults to an all-or-nothing scenario and thus the actual facts of the matter get obscured. I wouldn't be surprised if the A7r vibration issue (which I also have yet to see but don't doubt the existence of) turns out to be as much sample variation as anything else.

-Dave-

The A7 I tested (actually two out of three) would blur at 100th of a second with a 100mm lens and i;m pretty steady.  The em-5 and em-1 I tested next to it, I could use a 75mm lens (150mm in the real world) at 60th to 100th and it was as sharp as a tack, plus the em5 is dead smooth and quiet.  Produces a pretty sound when you shoot like a film camera, just more quiet.

Now the test I did was trying to get the A7 to have the same dof as the em-5 rather than the other way around, which means it took twice the iso to get close.

Actually to test these things is to shoot what you shoot.   I know when I first tested the em-5 against my 1dx just shooting stuff in my office, I was positive the 1dx was a much better file, but in the real world, shooting what was pretty, the opposite happened.

I'll go on record and say the em-5 shoots the prettiest file I've ever seen out of a cmos camera.   Nothing like my Nikon D3, or any of my Canons especially the 1dx.

Actually the em-5 produces a better file (to me better means prettier) than the em-1, though the em-1 is a slightly better camera with a PC connector and if low light is your deal the em-1 is good for one more stop,  though I find the ergonomics of the little em-5 better and easier to work, (though a little small).

This week I processed out 240 files from a recent shoot (most a motion video project) and shot 200 of the selects with the 1dx and about 40 with the em-5.   

I chickened out with the em-5 because it's hard to believe a small camera with a small sensor can be so good and I know the Canon system sleeping.   

Crazy thing is in lightroom the em-5 file just blows the Canon 1dx away.  (I know, nobody will believe it, but who cares, I know what I see).   The 1dx has that weird global color, plastic cmos look where the em-5 colors and separate and detailed and the noise is pretty, once you get the processing down.  Actually the noise is virtually the same as the 1dx up to 800, (just slightly larger), but it's just crazy that it shoots so pretty. 

People passing my computer as i worked would stop when I was working an em-5 file and go "wow that's pretty" and I'm show them the same session with the 1dx and they'd go hmm, that looks kind of digital normal.

If only (there is always an if only) the em-5 would track focus as well as the gh3's or the em-1 and only if the olympus would TETHER  (yes that was a yell).

It ook me a while to get use to the em series, because they are just so different than most ovf and way different than the gh3 which is bog easy to use, but once I got use to the functions, the buttons, got it set up the way I liked (it takes weeks to figure this out), I just love those little olympus, especially with the added viewfinder on top.  That swivel viewfinder is the best thing that ever happened to digital photography and I can focus with it so much easier.

IMO

BC

Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Deep on January 14, 2014, 11:00:08 PM
I've taken hundreds of photos with the E-M5 & E-M1 at all the "problem" shutter speeds, at various times over the past nine months, and have seen precisely nothing indicating shutter shock. I don't doubt some folks are experiencing it. But my guess is it's a sample-specific issue and not a ubiquitous one. As usual, though, 'Net discussion defaults to an all-or-nothing scenario and thus the actual facts of the matter get obscured. I wouldn't be surprised if the A7r vibration issue (which I also have yet to see but don't doubt the existence of) turns out to be as much sample variation as anything else.

-Dave-
Yup, sample variation is just what I noted!  A tiny little camera like that with a high speed shutter is probably hard to make without some shutter shake somewhere and the weight and balance of the lens must make some difference.  It's virtually no issue at all with my 12-40 but, as I go longer, it gets more visible.  Still, the body I ended up with is good enough and, otherwise, the image quality is truly amazing.  I absolutely can't envisage any sort of work I could do which would require anything better.  I'm as happy as a pig in the proverbial but not blind to the compromises involved in making these little jewels.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on January 14, 2014, 11:48:29 PM
BC, with the A7r I've been mostly using 2x focal length shutter speeds minimum just to be safe, though I have tried the Zeiss 100/2 at 1/125th sec. with no issues. It's a relatively heavy lens for its focal length & speed, which may help (when handholding, that is, as the camera itself is so light). I like this camera a lot, though it is kinda rough around the edges whereas the Oly m43 cams are refined. Still working on getting an out-of-camera look I like too. Dynamic range with all these recent cameras is scary good compared to just a few years ago...in the Sony's case it's easy to end up with something that looks more Log-C than pretty.

Deep, ah okay, I got 'cha.   :)

-Dave-
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Deep on January 14, 2014, 11:57:55 PM
BC, with the A7r I've been mostly using 2x focal length shutter speeds minimum just to be safe, though I have tried the Zeiss 100/2 at 1/125th sec. with no issues. It's a relatively heavy lens for its focal length & speed, which may help (when handholding, that is, as the camera itself is so light). I like this camera a lot, though it is kinda rough around the edges whereas the Oly m43 cams are refined. Still working on getting an out-of-camera look I like too. Dynamic range with all these recent cameras is scary good compared to just a few years ago...in the Sony's case it's easy to end up with something that looks more Log-C than pretty.

Deep, ah okay, I got 'cha.   :)

-Dave-
Interesting what you say about the dynamic range thing.  I took some raw files home from both the A7 and A7r and found the A7r files quite hard to get a good look out of.  I know that, technically, it's good to have all that information to work with and more skilled people will produce some brilliance but, honestly, the A7 files were so much easier to use, for me personally.  I took the same photos using the same settings and lens, so it was a fair comparison.  As I said above, I loved the A7 and may yet find one in my bag, though I am not made of money...
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on January 15, 2014, 05:10:05 PM
Interesting what you say about the dynamic range thing. I took some raw files home from both the A7 and A7r and found the A7r files quite hard to get a good look out of. I know that, technically, it's good to have all that information to work with and more skilled people will produce some brilliance but, honestly, the A7 files were so much easier to use, for me personally. I took the same photos using the same settings and lens, so it was a fair comparison. As I said above, I loved the A7 and may yet find one in my bag, though I am not made of money...

To be fair I've been using neutral settings so far with the A7r (no RAW processing yet), which result in a surprisingly flat look. My previous Sony experience led me to expect exaggerated color unless I dialed everything down, so I guess I'll have to adjust.   :)  There's a ton of latitude there, though, even in the JPEGs.

-Dave-
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: allegretto on January 16, 2014, 01:41:59 PM
The A7 I tested (actually two out of three) would blur at 100th of a second with a 100mm lens and i;m pretty steady.  The em-5 and em-1 I tested next to it, I could use a 75mm lens (150mm in the real world) at 60th to 100th and it was as sharp as a tack, plus the em5 is dead smooth and quiet.  Produces a pretty sound when you shoot like a film camera, just more quiet.

Now the test I did was trying to get the A7 to have the same dof as the em-5 rather than the other way around, which means it took twice the iso to get close.

Actually to test these things is to shoot what you shoot.   I know when I first tested the em-5 against my 1dx just shooting stuff in my office, I was positive the 1dx was a much better file, but in the real world, shooting what was pretty, the opposite happened.

I'll go on record and say the em-5 shoots the prettiest file I've ever seen out of a cmos camera.   Nothing like my Nikon D3, or any of my Canons especially the 1dx.

Actually the em-5 produces a better file (to me better means prettier) than the em-1, though the em-1 is a slightly better camera with a PC connector and if low light is your deal the em-1 is good for one more stop,  though I find the ergonomics of the little em-5 better and easier to work, (though a little small).

This week I processed out 240 files from a recent shoot (most a motion video project) and shot 200 of the selects with the 1dx and about 40 with the em-5.   

I chickened out with the em-5 because it's hard to believe a small camera with a small sensor can be so good and I know the Canon system sleeping.   

Crazy thing is in lightroom the em-5 file just blows the Canon 1dx away.  (I know, nobody will believe it, but who cares, I know what I see).   The 1dx has that weird global color, plastic cmos look where the em-5 colors and separate and detailed and the noise is pretty, once you get the processing down.  Actually the noise is virtually the same as the 1dx up to 800, (just slightly larger), but it's just crazy that it shoots so pretty. 

People passing my computer as i worked would stop when I was working an em-5 file and go "wow that's pretty" and I'm show them the same session with the 1dx and they'd go hmm, that looks kind of digital normal.

If only (there is always an if only) the em-5 would track focus as well as the gh3's or the em-1 and only if the olympus would TETHER  (yes that was a yell).

It ook me a while to get use to the em series, because they are just so different than most ovf and way different than the gh3 which is bog easy to use, but once I got use to the functions, the buttons, got it set up the way I liked (it takes weeks to figure this out), I just love those little olympus, especially with the added viewfinder on top.  That swivel viewfinder is the best thing that ever happened to digital photography and I can focus with it so much easier.

IMO

BC



Nope, can't be. With your lowly DR or ~12 it is not as good as the D800 and we all know this since we went to DxO and looked it up. There is no point in arguing for the Oly or Canon, they are inferior, your pictures aren't as good as you think. In fact, they suck and clients won't even look at them once they have seen D800 files cuz you don't have enough MP or DR. Now if you had a D800 or A7r you would have better pictures. You could crop and down-res and all kinds of cool things that you can't do unless you have a D800 or A7r. And you think you're a proÖ?

j/k of course... ;), but that seems to be the point of many posts around here.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: DanLehman on January 17, 2014, 01:59:27 PM
Quote
I'll go on record and say the em-5 shoots the prettiest file I've ever seen out of a cmos camera.   Nothing like my Nikon D3, or any of my Canons especially the 1dx.

Actually the em-5 produces a better file (to me better means prettier) than the em-1, ...

BC, where does the GH3 fall, then, in you appreciation of files?
(IIRC, it was from the GH3 that you had summarized that you'd
come 'round a full circle to the smaller size, with still quality on the
order of 1Ds-II or so; this would see it arrears of the 1Dx, E-M1/5, then?)

Any experience w/GX7, which has yet a further improved m43 sensor
to the GH3's?

--dl*
====
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: leuallen on January 17, 2014, 09:14:50 PM
Maybe I am a dunce or not very observant or critical but I have EM5, EM1, GH3, and GX7 and I cannot tell very much difference between them. Except that I like the GX7 color a little better. I don't do comparisons just shoot pictures and in that context see little difference.

Larry
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Vladimirovich on January 17, 2014, 10:20:00 PM
Maybe I am a dunce or not very observant or critical but I have EM5, EM1, GH3, and GX7 and I cannot tell very much difference between them.
GH3 has a quite thick AA filter (video needs) and EM1 does not have it at all... easy to notice (with proper lens)... I have both cameras.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Vladimirovich on January 17, 2014, 10:23:01 PM
Any experience w/GX7, which has yet a further improved m43 sensor to the GH3's?
it hasn't... GH3 has a sensor from Sony, GX7 apparently has its from Panasonic itself... it is not there yet, readout noise in Sony sensors it still better... so with the better implementations of Sony sensor (like in Olympus cameras - E-M1, etc) GX7 sensor still worse, with worse implemenations (like in Panasonic's own GH3 - which might be explained by the fact that GH3 targets video crowd) it is on par...
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: leuallen on January 17, 2014, 10:36:27 PM
Point is if you don't shoot a comparison image with another camera and the image you got satisfies you, what is the difference? If the image I got satisfies me what is the point that it might be a little sharper with another camera. In fact I find that in some shots the increased sharpness detracts from the pictorial effect. Don't get me wrong there are shots of a type that require tack sharp sharpness and others where it matters not a a whit. I tend to shoot a lot of the latter. That is why I have all those cameras and expensive lenses, horses for courses. I still feel that in the end there is little significant difference between them.

Larry
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on January 18, 2014, 01:03:08 AM
I own an E-M1 and a GX7...there's very little visible difference between the two image quality-wise. Under careful scrutiny the GX7 is a bit noisier at higher ISOs but this doesn't show up at all in prints or in 1440x1080 screen display. Despite the E-M1's better build quality and greater versatility it's the GX7 I enjoy using more. The rangefinder-style profile and VF location have won me over.   :)

-Dave-
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: bcooter on January 18, 2014, 03:40:46 AM
BC, where does the GH3 fall, then, in you appreciation of files?
(IIRC, it was from the GH3 that you had summarized that you'd
come 'round a full circle to the smaller size, with still quality on the
order of 1Ds-II or so; this would see it arrears of the 1Dx, E-M1/5, then?)

Any experience w/GX7, which has yet a further improved m43 sensor
to the GH3's?

--dl*
====


hi.

I don't have a 7 but have taken a thousand images with the em-5 next to the canon 1dx, a few hundred next to the em-1 and thousands of the gh3 stills next to all of the cameras I just mentioned.

IMo the em-5 is bette rthan the 1dx expcept for very igh iso and track focus.   For regular focus it's amazing in high and low light, very fast and a beautiful file.

The gh3 is softer, due to video, make a pretty file, (think 5d3 without the red faced color tones, more out of the camera brown, though fairly saturated, though it can be customized.

The problem with the gh3 for stills is at 800 iso and  higher say 2000 it doesn't get pretty noise, it gets this kind ofa painterly look, even with noise reduction turned way down or off, especially next to the em-5 olympus.

The em-5 up to 1000 or so is very pretty noise, much like 1,000 iso film and with NR  turned off, the raws are workable and very pretty.  The depth of the file is much nicer than the canon 1dx, (the camera I can compare it with the most).

Now the em-5 vs. the em-1 I don't have huge experience with but the em-5 up to 1,000 I believe is prettier, actually much prettier, regardless of test samples.   The em-1 is a better camera and goes to 2,000 iso easier, but loses some of that film like look at the same settings.   The em-5 really has a superior look (imo).

The difference is usability between the two (the em-1 and em-5) is just the usability.  If you add a vf-4 finder (which I recommend for both cameras, the em-5 loses the ability to fire a flash because there is no pc connection like the em-1 and the em-5 is just slightly small, not too small but bordering on too small.

There are other slight differences between the two and I've read the em-1 actually has 15 usable mpx vs. the em-5 16 due to the pdaf sensor for legacy 43 focus lenses.   I don't know if that's true, but once again I see a difference in the look and given my use I'd rather shoot the em-5 than the em-1 in regards to the look of the file.  

The file really, really, really is pretty on the em-5.

The autofocus lens line up for the m43 system is excellent and getting better.  A nocton 1.4 pana is out (great lens, a 1.2 42 mm leica lenses is due out soon (though expensive).  All oly primes are sharp and the panasonic 2.8 lenses are sharp and pretty, though 2.8 is a little slow for this format.

The gh3 track focuses well, the em-1 next as good, the em-5 not as good.

My suggestion is the em-5 if you don't need a pc slot and you add the right angle grip to add some size.  Both olympus are very well built to a level of leica S quality. and both complicated to set up but very pretty files (though once again the em-5 wins).

Set both olys to nr off, 6fps max for follow focus, tune the turn curve to hold highlghts and open shadows, used portrait setting as a base then turn down saturation, contrast.

Then you'll have a beautiful file.  Also set the evf to more match your computer taking out the green and addings a light amount of warmth.

The gh3 I only use as movie cameras now, though they are very good little movie cameras.

I bought the em-5 only to use the legacy 43 lenses (especially the 150 f2), and for the pc slot, to free up the hot shoe for the vf 4 viewfinder.

If I didn't need those I'd buy two em-5s adn I love that camera.

I'd put the em-5 look next to any camera I've ever used, even to medium format and not for detail but for look.

In lightroom  the file just sings.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: gerafotografija on January 18, 2014, 12:46:44 PM
I have been reading this thread with great interest, since I tried the A7 and the DF with the intention of possibly finding something better than my EM5.

In my much less experienced opinion, I think bc is right on about the beauty of the EM5 files. The one thing I would add to his comments is that there are certain lenses, that at least for me, work better than others with this sensor and processor. Personally, I think the Pana/leica 25/1.4 and Oly 60/2.8 work really, really well with this sensor and processor. I sold off most of the others after switching to the Ricoh GR for wide angle.

Responding to the OP about shutter shock. I only tried the A7 with a Sony rep in a local shop, and came away being unsure about it and the A7r.

What I am more sure about is that even with the EM5, I had issues with blur at certain speeds my first year with it, but after getting used to physically stabilizing the super small and light body, and learning the speeds and types of movement that the IBIS system sometimes doesn't deal so well with, I am getting really sharp images consistently.

For me, the best learning experience was putting the Oly 75-300 lens on, extending it to 600mm equivalent and trying to get really sharp bird shots at a local nature area. At first I couldn't get the feathers to be sharp even with a tripod, but after working on it for a while, I put together camera settings and technique good enough to even capture auto-alignable HDR stacks using 9fps burst mode hand held if needed.

The thing is, I get a definite impression that small and light cameras, just don't have enough mass to make super sharp image captures without some help. Going out and shooting with an old F3 that i can't bring myself to get rid of reminded me about the physics of the situation. Suffice it to say that a >900g body does not have a shutter shock issue even holding it one handed and panning while you shoot (although I am not always as critical about sharpness with film as a sensor, so that may contribute a bit).

On a related note, has anyone compared the Sonys or the latest OMD to the Pentax K-3?

It splits the difference between m43 and FF sensors, boosts sharpness due to adjustable AA filter, and has what seems to be an effective IBIS system. If the noise levels and color rendition are not worse than the GR, then this could be a significant step up from the OMD in image quality for larger prints without giving up too much of the usability advantage of the smaller mirrorless cameras. Plus you get better tracking AF and extremely solid construction. IMO it looks like the best designed OMD competitor in the DSLR camp.
Title: Re:
Post by: Glenn NK on January 18, 2014, 01:27:07 PM
so what your saying is someone at sony blew it and didnít get the design criteria right . . .

I'm getting back to this thread a bit late . . .

I wasn't commenting on any brand specifically, and certainly not Sony as I have no feelings or opinions either way, so I'm not suggesting they blew it (and I don't know what the design criteria were).

I have more faith in designers than I have in marketers that have the power to rush out a product before it's ready in order to gain traction in the market.  I suspect (probably not alone in this) that products are often pushed out before they are ready (which brings into play another whole set of arguments - what does "ready" mean).

regards,

Glenn
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on January 18, 2014, 04:46:41 PM
IMO the comments here re. weight, stability and small cameras are right on. The A7r: love the size, no issues with the shape but it needs to have the heft of a Leica (or thereabouts). When you're handholding at slow-ish shutter speeds there's no inertial ballast to help you keep steady. Every tiny movement you make gets mainlined right to the lens. The clunky shutter doesn't help but IMO the camera's (lack of) mass is a more significant issue, especially given its high-res capability. Still on the fence as to whether I'll hang with this system for awhile and see what happens...or just move it on. I seem to be in binge mode right now, though, so I guess the purge will come later rather than sooner.   :-X  (In my defense I bought no camera gear between late 2007 and early 2013.)

I've also returned to the E-M5 as my main Oly camera. I agree with what BC says re. image quality. But the clincher for me is the handling. With the aux. grip (minus the bottom part) everything just falls comfortably under my fingertips. The E-M1, as solid as it is, doesn't have the same feeling of rightness. I do wish the E-M5 allowed the E-M1's smaller focus points without having to use the manual focus rectangle workaround.

Ain't no perfect camera.

-Dave-
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: tho_mas on January 19, 2014, 05:58:23 AM
no issues with the shape but it needs to have the heft of a Leica (or thereabouts). When you're handholding at slow-ish shutter speeds there's no inertial ballast to help you keep steady. Every tiny movement you make gets mainlined right to the lens. The clunky shutter doesn't help but IMO the camera's (lack of) mass is a more significant issue, especially given its high-res capability.
with an L-Plate mounted things get somewhat better since the L-Plate adds weight (I've got the RRS and the additional weight feels "right").
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: billy on January 19, 2014, 11:19:50 AM
For BCooter and other em 5 users:

I gotta rent the Oly em5, sounds great. I have a couple questions though:

Why do u use the add on viewfinder? Is the built in one useable?

I was hoping to get a good prime lens with it, thinking about the Leica pana 25mm 1.4 ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768816-REG/Panasonic_H_X025_Leica_DG_Summilux_25.html ), great lens but will the AF work during video filming? Are there other options in this FOV range?

I keep hearing how u need to "set up the menu" to get the file to look how u want. If your shooting raw why does it matter? Or are u referring to video?

Does the file look ok in C1 pro?
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: bcooter on January 19, 2014, 01:27:58 PM
The VF 4 gives you slightly more magnification, but almost double the resolution on the em-5.  It also tilts up and makes a good waist level finder without left being right, right being left.

You need to update the firmware for the viewfinder and some of the pana lenses to work properly, but that's a pretty easy task.

The only problem with the em-5 and the vf4 is you lose the ability to add flash either on camera or through a remote like a pocket wizard, unless there is some attachment I don't know about (If anyone does let me know).

The Leica pana is very sharp, the olympus micro 43 primes are mostly excellent.   The 45 is good the 75 is probably the best lens they make.

I haven't tried it with C-1 as lightroom has a very good look on the olympus, which is opposite of other cameras I've used in c-1 and lightroom.  

In regards to the menu and setting up the file, yes you can change the raw to anything you like, but when you start very close to your look, it's a lot easier to fine tune a file than to start 75% off.

I have NR to zero, sharpness knocked down, shading comp off,  I set the high fps at 6 because I don't think it track focuses if you are set higher than 6fps.

I change the color of the evf to more match my computer and there is a button with a curve function where I open up the shadows, close down the highlights.

I also set the viewfinder/lcd where the lcd is off when I shoot and to view an image i just hit the play button.  Sometimes the eye sensor can drive you crazy with it flicking back and forth from evf to lcd so I just turn off the lcd and it also saves on batteries.

With batteries, if you don't chimp a lot two will last a long time, but if you run both the lcd and evf and spend a lot of time with the lcd the batteries will drain fairly quickly as they aren't that large.

Also if you have a good medium sized camera strap that also helps balance the camera.  

A suggestion, when you run through the menu keep a pad next to you as the menu is complicated and doesn't revert back to where you left it, so you have to remember what you changed.

That's crazy, but that's the way it is and a pad and a old school pen will speed you along.

Do yourself a favor.  When you test the camera, don't shoot it, then another camera and back and forth.  I know that sounds logical but it just messes you up and keeps you from building muscle memory of how a camera works.

At first when I was using the gh3's for video I'd shoot some stills, them grab the em-5.    The Panasonic has the most logical setup of any camera I've used and it soured me on the olympus, until I just decided to stop doing that and only use the panasonics for video, the olympus for stills and then the olympus made sense.

Also when you start comparing files, look at the file as a photo, not a scientific experiment.   Overall the file is beautiful, but if you start going it at 100% you'll develope a false impression.

I know I thought the Canon 1dx was a way superior file until I finally built a body of work with the em-5 and now I believe the opposite.

Also the one drawback on the em-5 is it only goes to 1 4,000th of a second, so a .3 or .6 nd outside is not a bad idea.

I would also rent the right angle grip and battery holder.  It makes the camera a nice size and gives it more balance.

The camera isn't perfect, requires a leap of faith due to it's size, but if you just shoot and shoot it like it's a $20,000 camera vs. a $700 camera (new price) I think you'l be surprised, but then again everyone has different expectations.

IMO

BC


For BCooter and other em 5 users:

I gotta rent the Oly em5, sounds great. I have a couple questions though:

Why do u use the add on viewfinder? Is the built in one useable?

I was hoping to get a good prime lens with it, thinking about the Leica pana 25mm 1.4 ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768816-REG/Panasonic_H_X025_Leica_DG_Summilux_25.html ), great lens but will the AF work during video filming? Are there other options in this FOV range?

I keep hearing how u need to "set up the menu" to get the file to look how u want. If your shooting raw why does it matter? Or are u referring to video?

Does the file look ok in C1 pro?
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on January 19, 2014, 02:43:44 PM
with an L-Plate mounted things get somewhat better since the L-Plate adds weight (I've got the RRS and the additional weight feels "right").

I was thinking about that kind of thing after my previous post. On my Rickie 4001 bass guitar I use a clamp-on gizmo called a Fat Finger to minimize a resonance that can reduce the sustain of certain notes. Same principle really. I'll have to look into the L-Plate. Thanks!

-Dave-
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Primus on January 19, 2014, 05:13:29 PM
This "Shutter issue" is like revisiting the D800 AF issue all over again. Tons of internet amplification, no big deal in real life for most people.


While it may be true for some people, I have been fortunate enough not to have a problem.

I tested the camera today on a tripod with tethered shooting on my Mac and with Canon lenses. Tested with the 70-200 f2.8 and the 600 f4 MkII. Speeds ranging from 1/10 s to 1/800 on the 600 and 1/25 s to 1/400 on the 70-200. Tested wide open to f8.

I just did a simple test in the backyard to simulate the real world.

As far as I am concerned there is no shutter shake. Sure, the images get slightly sharper as the speed increases, but you don't really expect a 600mm lens wide open to be as sharp at 1/20 of a second as at 1/800.

What is amazing (for me) is the absolute joy in being able to use the big 600 on this little camera with full AF through the Metabones adapter. It works really well and all the exif data comes through.

I can post samples if anybody is interested.

Pradeep

Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: hubell on January 20, 2014, 08:24:14 AM
In regards to the menu and setting up the file, yes you can change the raw to anything you like, but when you start very close to your look, it's a lot easier to fine tune a file than to start 75% off.

I have NR to zero, sharpness knocked down, shading comp off,  I set the high fps at 6 because I don't think it track focuses if you are set higher than 6fps.

I change the color of the evf to more match my computer and there is a button with a curve function where I open up the shadows, close down the highlights.

I also set the viewfinder/lcd where the lcd is off when I shoot and to view an image i just hit the play button.  Sometimes the eye sensor can drive you crazy with it flicking back and forth from evf to lcd so I just turn off the lcd and it also saves on batteries.

IMO

BC


Doesn't Lightroom ignore the JPEG settings you use in the camera when you open the file in Lightroom as a raw?
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: bcooter on January 20, 2014, 12:58:24 PM
Doesn't Lightroom ignore the JPEG settings you use in the camera when you open the file in Lightroom as a raw?

I have no idea and no intention of finding out.  What I know is what I set in camera and see in the evf looks a lot like what comes up on the lightroom window.

Maybe I've got lucky and calibrated both camera and computer to match, maybe lightroom picks up the wb, saturation, curves I set.  Maybe lightroom combines the two images for review, like I said, I don't know, but I do know they match.

But . . . if the didn't I would also have the jpeg to use for reference.

BC


P.S.  

I've never seen shutter blur from both olympus . . . unless I go too far.  The in camera stabilization is good, so if the subject is static I find myself shooting at a slower shutter than I ever would try with other cameras and once you get by with 1/60th, you try 1/30th, etc. etc.

Addendum.   Just processed an em-5 image, son leaning in the car of father.  Shot in Northern California, s____y day, real overcast.   Shot at 1250 iso F 7, to pull focu on both subjects and shot at 1/20th (I think it said 1/20th).  Main subject tack sharp down to the eyelashes.

Crazy.

Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Jim Kasson on January 23, 2014, 11:28:03 AM
Lloyd Chambers just posted this (http://diglloyd.com/blog/2014/20140123_2-SonyA7R-shutterVibration-CallForAction.html).

Jim
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 23, 2014, 02:31:47 PM
It seems to be a good initiative. Some well known names on that list!

Erik


Lloyd Chambers just posted this (http://diglloyd.com/blog/2014/20140123_2-SonyA7R-shutterVibration-CallForAction.html).

Jim
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Jim Kasson on January 23, 2014, 02:50:29 PM
It seems to be a good initiative. Some well known names on that list!

Erik, I think Lloyd and everybody else's hearts are in the right place, but I don't think this is the most effective possible vehicle. I donít think the argumentative tone of the petition in general, and the demand that Sony publicly call their baby ugly in particular, is useful. Itís quite possible that there is no firmware fix to be had (a few details on why I think that are here (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4598)), and Sonyís announcing to the world that they are shipping a defective camera just isnít in the cards, especially since most users of the camera probably wonít detect that thereís anything wrong, and will love the pictures theyíre getting.

One of the things Ė and perhaps the most important thing Ė a petition could do is to open up a dialog between Sony and photographers that would result in Sonyís making better cameras in the future. To effect that end, the petition ought to make the Sony folks want to work with the photographers.

[I see Lloyd's post now has some things added that make it less threatening. A good thing, IMHO.]

Jim

Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: The Photo Fundamentalist on February 01, 2014, 01:09:19 PM
I'm getting just perceptible shutter shake with a 90mm Elmarit-M between 1/10 and 1/80th, with 1/20 to 1/60 being more evident. Its still subtle and not an image breaker.

I'm a bit surprised Chambers and co have found it with the 55 Sonnar, because with my 50 ZM planar, which is razor sharp at f5.6 on centre, refuses to show it. Maybe it something to do with the physical length of the lens (as the 50 ZM and 55 Sonnar are so close in focal length).

For a short lens user such as myself, I'm not remotely bothered by the shutter shake issue, but I can see why others might be.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 02, 2014, 04:35:13 AM
Hi,

How are you holding and mounting the camera and lens?

Best
Regards



I'm getting just perceptible shutter shake with a 90mm Elmarit-M between 1/10 and 1/80th, with 1/20 to 1/60 being more evident. Its still subtle and not an image breaker.

I'm a bit surprised Chambers and co have found it with the 55 Sonnar, because with my 50 ZM planar, which is razor sharp at f5.6 on centre, refuses to show it. Maybe it something to do with the physical length of the lens (as the 50 ZM and 55 Sonnar are so close in focal length).

For a short lens user such as myself, I'm not remotely bothered by the shutter shake issue, but I can see why others might be.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 02, 2014, 04:45:02 AM
Jim,

I see you point. Also, I agree from the data you show that there is no easy fix.

I am pretty sure that FP shutters cause some vibration. Conservation of momentum simply. I would argue the mounting point may play a role and also mass.

I don't know if an electronic first shutter helps a lot. There will be shake from the second shutter. Making the shutter moving more slowly would help, but that means longer synchronisation times.

Best regards
Erik


Erik, I think Lloyd and everybody else's hearts are in the right place, but I don't think this is the most effective possible vehicle. I donít think the argumentative tone of the petition in general, and the demand that Sony publicly call their baby ugly in particular, is useful. Itís quite possible that there is no firmware fix to be had (a few details on why I think that are here (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4598)), and Sonyís announcing to the world that they are shipping a defective camera just isnít in the cards, especially since most users of the camera probably wonít detect that thereís anything wrong, and will love the pictures theyíre getting.

One of the things Ė and perhaps the most important thing Ė a petition could do is to open up a dialog between Sony and photographers that would result in Sonyís making better cameras in the future. To effect that end, the petition ought to make the Sony folks want to work with the photographers.

[I see Lloyd's post now has some things added that make it less threatening. A good thing, IMHO.]

Jim


Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 02, 2014, 02:05:06 PM
I am pretty sure that FP shutters cause some vibration. Conservation of momentum simply. I would argue the mounting point may play a role and also mass.

Absolutely. Here's the analysis of the physics of the effects on the image of vibration for the Pentax K-7 (http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/). Much of the methodology and approach applies to any focal plane shutter camera. The same author argues here  (http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/CameraPitchTheory.pdf)that rotation is always more important than translation when looking at shutter-shock effects, and thus your comment about the mounting point is right on.

With respect to mass, I've done a little three-part post, here (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4581), here (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4590), and here (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4609), that borrows from the methods employed by manufacturers of optical and other vibration-isolation tables. It turns out that, for a high-enough frequency forcing function, mass is the only material determinant of vibrational response to that forcing function; stiffness and damping, important at other frequencies, are swamped out.

I don't know if an electronic first shutter helps a lot. There will be shake from the second shutter. Making the shutter moving more slowly would help, but that means longer synchronisation times.

It helps in the a&7 (not R) in three ways. First, the shutter is wound when the shutter release is pressed, and doesn't need to be wound, eliminating the vibration associated with the electric motor that does the rewinding and the not-so-little- smack at the end of the rewinding, just before the first curtain is released. Second, there's no acceleration of the first curtain. Third, and probably more important in the a7R, there's no deceleration of the first curtain at the end of its travel. What would help as well as decreasing the minimum synch shutter speed is giving the shutter more distance to accelerate, and at the other end, more distance to decelerate, thus reducing the g-forces on the shutter. There may not be room in the camera to do that.

As to shake from the second shutter curtain, it's a little hard to tell. With the first curtain, and a test chart, you can see the effects of the first-curtain acceleration and the residual effects of the shutter winding by looking a blur with shutter speeds of 1/160 second and slower. You can see the effects of the deceleration of the first curtain only contaminated by the camera's response to the first two parts of the forcing function. With continuous lighting, you can see the effects of the second curtain acceleration only contaminated by everything else that happens before that, and attenuated by the image formed when the camera is relatively still between the two curtain firings.Of course, there are no visible effects of second curtain deceleration because the shutter is closed at that point.

In a reasonably successful attempt to isolate the second curtain effects and measure the first curtain effects by image blur, I made a series of exposures at various shutter speeds using trailing-curtain synch and a strobe with a 1/800 second t.1. By comparing the long-exposure second curtain synch images to ones made by triggering the strobe manually with the shutter open, I was able to see the effects of second-curtain acceleration in the a7R. They were minimal. I'm still not sure why. I plan to repeat the test with the D800E and its more massive shutter, and the Zeiss 135mm f/2 AP Sonnar, with its greater resolving power (or more accurately, its higher contrast at the resolution of th s7R's sensor).

Jim
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on February 02, 2014, 02:25:29 PM
I guess my particular way of using the A7r helps mitigate shutter shock all by itself.

ē Mostly handheld with a minimum 2x focal length Tv.
ē On a tripod I use the camera's QR plate rather than a lens-mounted one.
ē Mostly smaller, lighter lenses...less forward mass for the shutter to set in motion.

-Dave-
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 02, 2014, 03:49:13 PM
I guess my particular way of using the A7r helps mitigate shutter shock all by itself.

I think you're right. See below.

ē Mostly handheld with a minimum 2x focal length Tv.

I haven't done a lot of handheld testing, since it's so hard to make it repeatable, but I think that at 1/(2*Focal length), the a7R's shutter shock will be smaller than camera motion from hand-holding. However, as the shutter speed goes up from there, the shutter shock will become relatively more important, since the forcing function has high-frequency components, and the hand motion is low in frequency. Also, when the camera is hand-held, there is unstiff coupling from the camera to your body, so your body mass is ineffective at adding mass to the camera, which is the best vibration-reduction technique at high frequencies.

[Added later. That said, I'd advise against using shutter speeds in the range 1/80 to 1/200, where you get the maximum effect of the first curtain acceleration and deceleration, whether the camera is on a tripod or not.]

ē On a tripod I use the camera's QR plate rather than a lens-mounted one.

Definitely a good thing. You want the part of the camera closest to the shutter -- as measured in the direction of the shutter motion -- to be the coupling point.

ē Mostly smaller, lighter lenses...less forward mass for the shutter to set in motion.

Yes, and those lenses tend to be shorter in focal length as well, so they magnify the rotational motion of the camera less, at least if you're not shooting near 1:1 reproduction ratio, at which point the focal length is not important in the blur calculation. Actually, at similar reproduction ratios, no matter what they are, the focal length isn't material.

So, subject to those quibbles, I agree with you.

Jim

Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 05, 2014, 03:43:53 PM
Hi,

Just a reflection:

In a way I feel the problem is overblown. With a mechanical shutter there will always be some vibration. I guess the A7r has some vibration problems but I also guess that it is no worse than many other systems.

On the other hand many users probably choose the A7r for resolution and probably want to achieve maximum resolution where shutter vibration is a problem.

Unsharpness from vibration may probably easier to measure than to see.

So I think the problem is there, may be hard to observe, but matters to those in search of the optimum image quality.

Best regards
Erik

I think you're right. See below.

I haven't done a lot of handheld testing, since it's so hard to make it repeatable, but I think that at 1/(2*Focal length), the a7R's shutter shock will be smaller than camera motion from hand-holding. However, as the shutter speed goes up from there, the shutter shock will become relatively more important, since the forcing function has high-frequency components, and the hand motion is low in frequency. Also, when the camera is hand-held, there is unstiff coupling from the camera to your body, so your body mass is ineffective at adding mass to the camera, which is the best vibration-reduction technique at high frequencies.

[Added later. That said, I'd advise against using shutter speeds in the range 1/80 to 1/200, where you get the maximum effect of the first curtain acceleration and deceleration, whether the camera is on a tripod or not.]

Definitely a good thing. You want the part of the camera closest to the shutter -- as measured in the direction of the shutter motion -- to be the coupling point.

Yes, and those lenses tend to be shorter in focal length as well, so they magnify the rotational motion of the camera less, at least if you're not shooting near 1:1 reproduction ratio, at which point the focal length is not important in the blur calculation. Actually, at similar reproduction ratios, no matter what they are, the focal length isn't material.

So, subject to those quibbles, I agree with you.

Jim


Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Stefan.Steib on February 05, 2014, 05:47:23 PM
@Erik and all

I have read this thread for some time and looked at this by myself, first on the A7/A7r bodies I had for my recent article and now on my own A7r.

In short - nothing can beat mass ! The heavier the lens is, the easier it is to achieve a sharper image handheld. The camera alone is very light, the resolution is high.
The frequency of the system seems to be in a status of easy induction of movement when the damping and counterbalance is missing.

I have also got the battery grip, this alone does plenty on the subject, shifting the system frequency. Funnily I suspect it is because the connection to the body is more or less
flexible, even when you tighten the screw to the body, you can stil bend the two parts against each other. Light build and misunderstood engineering I would say, in this case
, by incident it helps ! So does holding the lens supporting it from the bottom compared shooting holding the camera with both hands and letting the lens "swing" to the induced
shutter movement.

I have made a decision (and already taken action) now: I am building a support part for the Sony A7/7r that will allow secure shooting without shutter induced vibration.
The first prototype is already in the works, I will post, when I have a definite result.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Wayne Fox on February 05, 2014, 06:02:05 PM
Hi,

Just a reflection:

In a way I feel the problem is overblown. With a mechanical shutter there will always be some vibration. I guess the A7r has some vibration problems but I also guess that it is no worse than many other systems.

On the other hand many users probably choose the A7r for resolution and probably want to achieve maximum resolution where shutter vibration is a problem.

While the problem is perhaps a little overblown, it is very real and the second statement above to me is key.  Sony has designed this camera for very discriminating photographers who are looking for maximum quality.

Iím not sure there is another camera which employs a shutter like the a7r where the shutter has to close then immediately open.  Iím sure there are some, but being full frame adds to the problem because the shutter itself is larger and has more mass.

Iím currently testing my d800e body along side the a7r.  The expectation is they should achieve near equal image quality.  Using a longer lens they donít unless you take measures to manage the vibration.  On shorter lens Iím still not sure, but certainly less of a problem.

In my particular case, I am sticking with the a7r because I can pretty much eliminate the shutter vibration issues in a couple of ways, and the main appeal to me is freedom to use any glass I want. Since much of that glass is smaller/lighter, carrying things like a long lens support from RRS or even adding some dead weight ala Joseph Holmes, Iím still lighter, smaller and more flexible.

In fact, thatís the problem Iím facing now ... just what lenses do I want to use/buy, now that I can use Leica/Zeiss/Canon/Nikon as well as a bunch of others all of the same sensor.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: peterottaway on February 05, 2014, 08:43:27 PM
One of the things that's rarely brought up with the concern over the A7r shutter shake is how this compares to the combination of shutter shake and mirror slap on conventional SLR cameras. In comparison to having to use MLU as in the past this is a bonus of the SLT and mirror less cameras. Although it may not always matter, having a reasonable proximation of WYSIWYG is both comforting and an advantage.

I do happen to own a tabletop tripod, a monopod and two tripods ( one aluminium and one carbon fibre ) with a geared head and 3 different size / weight classes ball heads. So even when basically shooting hand held I have some extra support. Like others I also have the grip / second battery compartment.

Other than this it is largely just a matter of noting the reported speed range and avoiding where possible.

PS To avoid an allergic reaction amongst the EVF phobes I have not mentioned the other advantages of the SLT design.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: DanLehman on February 13, 2014, 01:43:55 PM
it hasn't... GH3 has a sensor from Sony,
GX7 apparently has its from Panasonic itself... it is not there yet,
readout noise in Sony sensors it still better...
so with the better implementations of Sony sensor (like in Olympus cameras - E-M1, etc)
GX7 sensor still worse, with worse implementations  . . .
Apparently the E-M1 has PANY sensor, not Sony
(might be that 10% inferiority to E-M5 BCooter claims):
[from http://chipworks.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=OLY-E-M1_Pri-Camera (http://chipworks.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=OLY-E-M1_Pri-Camera)

>> The Olympus OM-D EM-1 contains a Panasonic 34231
>> (MN34230 die markings) CMOS Image Sensor
>> with on-chip phase detection pixel array

Interesting!
 ;)
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: DanLehman on February 13, 2014, 01:51:24 PM
it hasn't... GH3 has a sensor from Sony,
GX7 apparently has its from Panasonic itself... it is not there yet,
readout noise in Sony sensors it still better...
so with the better implementations of Sony sensor (like in Olympus cameras - E-M1, etc)
GX7 sensor still worse, with worse implementations  . . .

{{edit : As you have separately & previously noted !
here : http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=87043.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=87043.0)
}}

Apparently the E-M1 has PANY sensor, not Sony
(might be that 10% inferiority to E-M5 BCooter claims):
[from http://chipworks.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=OLY-E-M1_Pri-Camera (http://chipworks.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=OLY-E-M1_Pri-Camera)

>> The Olympus OM-D EM-1 contains a Panasonic 34231
>> (MN34230 die markings) CMOS Image Sensor
>> with on-chip phase detection pixel array

Interesting!
 ;)
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Vladimirovich on February 13, 2014, 02:09:50 PM
As you have separately & previously noted
yes, GX7 sensor is not the same as GH4 one... so it is a race where alternative companies take a lead with each new release...

with E-M1 being the most $$$ camera in Olympus stable and Sony sensor still accessible - why Panasonic was selected for it ? not for meetoo EM10, but for a flagman... I do not think it is just for variety, but probably because of the cost or most probably because for performance in typical applications where while Sony sensor has some advantages Panasonic sensor was still able to give more in some more important areas and probably this time Olympus has good financial arrangement in addition (price from Panasonic semi division vs what Olympus can pay).
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 13, 2014, 06:39:13 PM
Hi,

Another small reflectionÖ

Most cameras using live view have a similar issue, for instance Leica has the same problem when Live View is used.

The problem with the A7r may be a powerful shutter mechanism. Someone measured vibration using speaker coil and an oscilloskope and found that the rewinding of the shutter causes small vibrations but the release of the first curtain causes significant vibration, so rewinding may not be the problem.

I guess that A7 has a more "gentle shutter" and it uses electronic first curtain, so vibrations are probably less. I am pretty sure that the A7 sensor is a more modern design than the A7r sensor, as it also has Phase detection.

I am pretty sure Sony will release a new camera (if camera divison survives), with a new sensor, but the 50 MP sensor make take some time.

Meanwhile, it seems that some of the new Sony EF lenses may be quite decent.

Best regards
Erik

While the problem is perhaps a little overblown, it is very real and the second statement above to me is key.  Sony has designed this camera for very discriminating photographers who are looking for maximum quality.

Iím not sure there is another camera which employs a shutter like the a7r where the shutter has to close then immediately open.  Iím sure there are some, but being full frame adds to the problem because the shutter itself is larger and has more mass.

Iím currently testing my d800e body along side the a7r.  The expectation is they should achieve near equal image quality.  Using a longer lens they donít unless you take measures to manage the vibration.  On shorter lens Iím still not sure, but certainly less of a problem.

In my particular case, I am sticking with the a7r because I can pretty much eliminate the shutter vibration issues in a couple of ways, and the main appeal to me is freedom to use any glass I want. Since much of that glass is smaller/lighter, carrying things like a long lens support from RRS or even adding some dead weight ala Joseph Holmes, Iím still lighter, smaller and more flexible.

In fact, thatís the problem Iím facing now ... just what lenses do I want to use/buy, now that I can use Leica/Zeiss/Canon/Nikon as well as a bunch of others all of the same sensor.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Manoli on February 14, 2014, 05:40:09 AM
A few seminal points

While the problem is perhaps a little overblown, it is very real ...  Sony has designed this camera for very discriminating photographers who are looking for maximum quality.
[..]
I can pretty much eliminate the shutter vibration issues in a couple of ways, and the main appeal to me is freedom to use any glass I want.
[..]
the problem Iím facing now ... just what lenses do I want to use/buy, now that I can use Leica/Zeiss/Canon/Nikon as well as a bunch of others all of the same sensor.

In short - nothing can beat mass ! The heavier the lens is, the easier it is to achieve a sharper image handheld. The camera alone is very light, the resolution is high. The frequency of the system seems to be in a status of easy induction of movement when the damping and counterbalance is missing.
[..]
I am building a support part for the Sony A7/7r that will allow secure shooting without shutter induced vibration. The first prototype is already in the works, I will post, when I have a definite result.

Don't keep us in suspense, Stefan ..
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Manoli on February 14, 2014, 06:05:30 AM
The shutter shake tests I have seen (Jim Kasson, Lloyd Chambers etc) all seem to be using the same RRS L-bracket, BA7-L. I don't have the bracket so I can't compare directly but I have used an older RRS 'universal' design, the MC-L.

The MC-L does attach to the A7, albeit preventing tilt of the rear LCD, and it does seem debatable whether or not this one-piece monocoque construction is a more appropriate and solid bracket than the 2-piece product, connected by one screw.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: jjj on February 14, 2014, 07:09:55 AM
My suggestion is the em-5 if you don't need a pc slot and you add the right angle grip to add some size.  Both olympus are very well built to a level of leica S quality. and both complicated to set up but very pretty files (though once again the em-5 wins).

Set both olys to nr off, 6fps max for follow focus, tune the turn curve to hold highlghts and open shadows, used portrait setting as a base then turn down saturation, contrast.

Then you'll have a beautiful file.  Also set the evf to more match your computer taking out the green and addings a light amount of warmth.

I'd put the em-5 look next to any camera I've ever used, even to medium format and not for detail but for look.

In lightroom  the file just sings.
That sounds like you are shooting JPEGs. Is that the case?
I used a pocket camera, the Ricoh GX200 and the JPEGs it produced had a really nice look to them. One that was hard to match with the raw files. But the raw files had more data to recover which suited other shots.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Craig Arnold on February 14, 2014, 08:38:29 AM
Sony has designed this camera for very discriminating photographers who are looking for maximum quality.


I'm not sure that's true at all actually.

It's certainly attracting those people, but was it really made with them in mind? I suspect not. It is clearly a product coming out of their "consumer" division (and I don't think they have a "professional" camera division at all, not like their video cameras for example).

I just ditched all my Canon gear for an A7R and couldn't be happier, but it very much seems to me like the kind of camera that will be used by keen amateurs, who aren't necessarily all that skilled but are looking for decent bragging rights combined with the kind of equipment that will allow them to take excellent pictures if they can improve their skills sufficiently.

36Mp & FF and it doesn't weight a ton - wow I need one of those.

For myself - I hate shooting with tripods, I don't think I've used one in years, everything is handheld and the FE35 and FE55 are tremendous used at 1/200s.

I am almost certainly not getting the best from the camera, but I can say with certainty that I'm getting resolution and pixel level sharpness that makes my recently departed 5D2 look like a P&S.

I also imagine that shutter shock is probably quite amenable to software mitigation - like the new PS anti-blur and Topaz Infocus. Has anyone who has actually managed to induce the shutter shock tried running it through these correction routines?

Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: peterottaway on February 14, 2014, 09:51:29 AM
The A7 family came out of the RX design group as can be seen. So it didn't come from the same unit that developed such cameras as the A77 and A99 or apparently those working on the Nex cameras. But whether Sony actually has conceptually amateur, enthusiast,P & S designers is open to question.

This seems to be why sometimes like with the early Nex cameras the menu system (?) looked like it was taken from their mobile phone system rather than their A camera group. Many,many nasty words have been spoken about such silly mistakes, although to someone at the time it seemed like a good idea. After all similar requirements to keep things as simple as possible.

After the rather hostile reception and frankly it did make Sony look pretty silly, with the release of the A7 they made it clear that a similar menu system could be expected on future cameras. Well love it or loath it, here's hoping that it is in fact consistent.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Manoli on February 14, 2014, 10:33:17 AM
Ö it very much seems to me like the kind of camera that will be used by keen amateurs, who aren't necessarily all that skilled but are looking for decent bragging rights ...

You've just got look at the number of professionals on LuLa who've adopted this camera. Not replacing their systems but adding another dimension. The big plus, as Wayne Fox pointed out above, is the interoperability of the A7/E-mount with lenses from almost any manufacturer. Canon t/s, Leica M&R series, Nikon, Leitz etc - all on 36mp sensor.

The uses are many and varied, but definitely not limited to keen amateurs.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Vladimirovich on February 14, 2014, 10:52:08 AM
The shutter shake tests I have seen (Jim Kasson, Lloyd Chambers etc) all seem to be using the same RRS L-bracket, BA7-L. I don't have the bracket so I can't compare directly but I have used an older RRS 'universal' design, the MC-L.

The MC-L does attach to the A7, albeit preventing tilt of the rear LCD, and it does seem debatable whether or not this one-piece monocoque construction is a more appropriate and solid bracket than the 2-piece product, connected by one screw.

China has a better answer @ $70 all inclusive :

(http://upload.alibaba.com/common/upload/139/227/934/355/hz-fileserver-upload2_hrlr5pl3.jpg?size=48337&height=640&width=711&hash=35ae81556aa9db4471468ffc94b6b34d)

(http://upload.alibaba.com/common/upload/139/227/940/397/hz-fileserver-upload2_hrlr5pl5.jpg?size=68844&height=601&width=723&hash=97318341e2f3d93105c3612e1212d36e)

(http://upload.alibaba.com/common/upload/139/227/977/496/hz-fileserver-upload2_hrlr5plh.jpg?size=72284&height=585&width=721&hash=a756b0fee06e9f9a7aec033a815461af)

RRS this time looks worse.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Craig Arnold on February 14, 2014, 11:10:36 AM
You've just got look at the number of professionals on LuLa who've adopted this camera. Not replacing their systems but adding another dimension. The big plus, as Wayne Fox pointed out above, is the interoperability of the A7/E-mount with lenses from almost any manufacturer. Canon t/s, Leica M&R series, Nikon, Leitz etc - all on 36mp sensor.

The uses are many and varied, but definitely not limited to keen amateurs.


No I wasn't saying that. What I was saying was that I would love to know the numbers.

Remember when Apple stopped making "proper" monitors, and moved from Final Cut Pro 7 to Final Cut Pro X?

Effectively they were saying that they don't need 75% of a tiny market of professionals, they would rather make a product that had millions or even billions of potential customers who wanted something that looked like a professional product that wasn't really. Financially I have no doubt that Apple made the right decision, but it sure annoyed the heck out of people who were looking for upgrades from their 30" Apple AdobeRGB monitors and movie editors who could no longer use Final Cut Pro.

I'm sure that actually a lot of the engineers and programmers were upset too; just not the ones with stock options.

Even if 100% of the pro photographers go out and grab themselves an A7R and are annoyed by an issue that none of the amateurs will even notice, it may still be the case that 99% of A7R sales are to enthusiasts in overall terms - people who cannot distinguish shutter shock blur from ordinary camera shake. (Like me for example.)

And who frankly aren't that bothered because the images coming out of the system are ****ing amazing.

I think the A7R is an "okay" camera that produces amazing files and is giving me a chance to produce the kind of prints I've never even been able to approach before. I haven't even printed anything larger than A3 yet, but with the FE35&FE55 and A7R I'm getting a "wow factor" from the prints that I was never able to achieve with my 5D2.

I'm a happy enthusiast. For the price and weight - really amazing. Well done Sony!



Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: jjj on February 14, 2014, 11:31:18 AM
No I wasn't saying that. What I was saying was that I would love to know the numbers.

Remember when Apple stopped making "proper" monitors, and moved from Final Cut Pro 7 to Final Cut Pro X?

Effectively they were saying that they don't need 75% of a tiny market of professionals, they would rather make a product that had millions or even billions of potential customers who wanted something that looked like a professional product that wasn't really. Financially I have no doubt that Apple made the right decision, but it sure annoyed the heck out of people who were looking for upgrades from their 30" Apple AdobeRGB monitors and movie editors who could no longer use Final Cut Pro.
Ditching the pros can be really bad for marketing even if the numbers are nothing like the amateurs. The reason being there is a halo effect from using the same make as the one the pros do. Some firms even make a few high end products specifically to give their lower end mass market product some added kudos.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Manoli on February 14, 2014, 11:33:23 AM
China has a better answer @ $70 all inclusive :
RRS this time looks worse.

Vladimirovich/
(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=86474.msg709865#msg709865)

Your bracket has the 'L' connected by a single screw. The RRS monocoque design from circa 2008, is exactly that - a one-piece construction that must surely make a difference in terms of rigidity. What effect it has, if any, in helping to eliminate shutter induced vibration on the A7r ( I know you've got the A7) I don't know - yet.

My gut feeling is that adding mass to the body, as has previously been suggested, coupled with a stiffer coupling should make a difference.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Manoli on February 14, 2014, 11:36:25 AM
Ditching the pros can be really bad for marketing ... The reason being there is a halo effect from using the same make as the one the pros do...

Welcome back, Jeremy!
Loved the pun ..

M
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on February 14, 2014, 03:40:50 PM
Since I'm using my A7r in 16:9 mode for everything except stitched panosóno verticals with this camera at allóI've put a standard Arca-Swiss type QR plate on it. In my experience mitigating "shutter shock" with the camera on a tripod isn't difficult...use the camera's QR plate rather than a lens-mounted one whenever possible, and when not bump up your Tv into the 1/focal length range. Or at least above 1/125th sec. If this means raising the ISO above base value (the horror!) just do it and be happy.

Note: I use this camera mostly handheld with the shutter speed at 2x focal length minimum. I've seen no vibration issues since I started doing this.

-Dave-
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Deep on February 14, 2014, 04:03:36 PM
Since I'm using my A7r in 16:9 mode for everything except stitched panosóno verticals with this camera at allóI've put a standard Arca-Swiss type QR plate on it. In my experience mitigating "shutter shock" with the camera on a tripod isn't difficult...use the camera's QR plate rather than a lens-mounted one whenever possible, and when not bump up your Tv into the 1/focal length range. Or at least above 1/125th sec. If this means raising the ISO above base value (the horror!) just do it and be happy.

Note: I use this camera mostly handheld with the shutter speed at 2x focal length minimum. I've seen no vibration issues since I started doing this.

-Dave-
If it's shutter shake it's not really from speed related to focal length, more a vulnerable speed range in general, though the effect can be more visible at longer focal lengths.  With a vulnerable lens/body combination, you may find less blur at 1/30 than at 1/60, which seems counter-intuitive!  1/125 may be a shutter speed to avoid for that reason.
Title: Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
Post by: Telecaster on February 14, 2014, 04:30:12 PM
If it's shutter shake it's not really from speed related to focal length, more a vulnerable speed range in general, though the effect can be more visible at longer focal lengths. With a vulnerable lens/body combination, you may find less blur at 1/30 than at 1/60, which seems counter-intuitive! 1/125 may be a shutter speed to avoid for that reason.

Yes, I should've noted that speeds at or below 1/30th sec. seem safe with the longer lenses I've tried. Personally I'm comfortable using up to ISO 800 and a shutter speed above 1/125 on a tripod with this camera. If the options are either to use an ND filter to drop below the danger zone or increase the ISO to rise above it I'll opt for the latter in most cases.

-Dave-
Title: EM5 quirks
Post by: OldRoy on February 15, 2014, 05:31:08 AM
For BCooter and other em 5 users:

I gotta rent the Oly em5, sounds great. I have a couple questions though:

Why do u use the add on viewfinder? Is the built in one useable?

I was hoping to get a good prime lens with it, thinking about the Leica pana 25mm 1.4 ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768816-REG/Panasonic_H_X025_Leica_DG_Summilux_25.html ), great lens but will the AF work during video filming? Are there other options in this FOV range?

I keep hearing how u need to "set up the menu" to get the file to look how u want. If your shooting raw why does it matter? Or are u referring to video?

Does the file look ok in C1 pro?
This is a off-topic but having been using the EM5 camera since shortly after it was introduced it has one big problem for me (everyone complains about the labrynthine firmware.) The small size and close proximity of the controls, combined with their modal nature, is simply nightmarish. Even now I find myself constantly in unwanted modes in consequence of accidental button-pressing.

Trying to use the multi-directional control to navigate the focus box to the required position is close to impossible without accidentally hitting the "Ok" or "info" buttons. This is just a single example. I have pretty small hands and I'd describe myself as fairly deft too; this after more than a year of use. Sometimes I feel like hurling the camera in the nearest deep water, of which, at present, there's no shortage hereabouts.
Roy