Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Other Raw Converters => Topic started by: Redcrown on November 19, 2013, 01:27:03 pm

Title: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Redcrown on November 19, 2013, 01:27:03 pm
A long term ACR user here, trying out DXO Optics Pro 9. Since I do a lot of portraits I'm focusing first on skin tones. So far I'm not having much luck. ACR has won every test I've done (to my personal taste). But DXO OP9 has so many unfamiliar options I expect I'm not finding the best combinations.


So I request a favor from DXO veterans. Please consider downloading the following raw file (Canon 5D3) and giving it your best base conversion. Since I'm focusing only on tone and color, noise reduction and sharpening are not important. However, please leave all lens distortion correction turned off so your version can be overlayed on an ACR version.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62166185/Italy2013-138v0.CR2 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62166185/Italy2013-138v0.CR2)

The main problem I'm having is that DXO OP9 compared to ACR appears to give lower saturation in highlights and higher saturation in shadows and midtones. That means harsher transitions, which are not as pleasing to me as the smoother transitions of ACR. Specifically, the lack of saturation in DXO's skintone highlights renders pale, washed out colors. But again, I probaby don't know what I'm doing.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Vladimirovich on November 19, 2013, 01:31:19 pm
Thanks in advance.

did you try DxO's U2U forums too ?
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Redcrown on November 19, 2013, 03:18:34 pm
Quote
did you try DxO's U2U forums too ?

Never heard of it. Google can't find it. What is it, where is it?
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Vladimirovich on November 19, 2013, 03:58:28 pm
Never heard of it. Google can't find it. What is it, where is it?
come on !

http://forum.dxo.com ( no, this is not DxoMark forum - this is for raw converter, etc )

that will be the place to ask
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Redcrown on November 19, 2013, 07:33:33 pm
OK, you got me Vlad.

In my defense, I had looked for a forum on the DXO home page. Didn't find it where I expected, at the top menu bar, or under "support" where most folks put it. On second look I see it now, buried in the fine print at the bottom of the page.

And believe it or not, "U2U" is a term I've never heard. So I Googled "U2U forum" and was led down a bunch of blind alleys.

Anyway, I registered a couple hours ago. Still waiting for my "activation link."
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Vladimirovich on November 19, 2013, 09:19:32 pm
"U2U"
parroted from Adobe forums @ http://forums.adobe.com ... "user(s) to user(s)"

Still waiting for my "activation link."
I don't recall if they use a human (real human) activation - but don't forget to check your spam folder.
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: kirkt on November 21, 2013, 09:18:38 am
Can you post or PM me the XML of the ACR version, so I know what you are trying to achieve, look-wise?

kirk
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: robgo2 on November 21, 2013, 10:15:07 pm
I would like to send you a Photo Ninja rendition.  To my eyes, and in my hands, the skin tones are far superior to ACR's and DxO's, both of which I have also tried on your image.  PM an email address, so that I can send the file via Dropbox.

Rob
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Redcrown on November 22, 2013, 12:00:04 am
Rob, I responded to your PM yesterday. Went to an address at earthlink.net. Just re-sent the msg.

re-post here if you don't get it. But in it I said why not post the dropbox link here so everyone can see it?
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Vladimirovich on November 22, 2013, 12:03:19 am
Rob, I responded to your PM yesterday. Went to an address at earthlink.net. Just re-sent the msg.

re-post here if you don't get it. But in it I said why not post the dropbox link here so everyone can see it?

because he is always, if you didn't notice, afraid to post the results from his beloved noinse ninja  ::)
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: robgo2 on November 22, 2013, 02:11:28 am
Rob, I responded to your PM yesterday. Went to an address at earthlink.net. Just re-sent the msg.

re-post here if you don't get it. But in it I said why not post the dropbox link here so everyone can see it?

Redcrown,

Sorry, but I have not received your emails or a PM.  But you have a good suggestion re posting the link for others to download as well.  I processed your file using Photo Ninja's Portrait preset.  No other adjustments were made, so what you see is right out of the box.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/qyq3oj6xmk8l6is/Italy2013-138v0_v1.jpg?dl=1&token_hash=AAHNk6M_G7iqqpU5D8WOXP_UwVydYTyY1IiYvl-P5JbQmg

Rob



Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: robgo2 on November 22, 2013, 02:31:20 am
because he is always, if you didn't notice, afraid to post the results from his beloved noinse ninja  ::)

Afraid to post my results from Photo Ninja?  Not at all, and I have just done so (see above post).  Check it out.  It is an example of Photo Ninja's Portrait preset with no additional adjustments whatsoever.  I'm sure that I could have improved the overall image with a few tweaks, but I wanted to show how the software renders with default settings.  BTW, I do not see you or anyone else responding to the Redcrown's request for examples of skin tone rendition for his portrait.  He wants to know if other programs can do better than DxO 9 or if DxO 9 is capable of better results than he was able to get.  And for the record, I have also run his file through ACR and DxO 9, so I know how they compare to PN--not favorably.  

Rob
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 22, 2013, 03:04:23 am
And for the record, I have also run his file through ACR and DxO 9, so I know how they compare to PN--not favorably. 

Rob,

Did you try using the DxO 9 portrait profiles?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: robgo2 on November 22, 2013, 10:34:37 am
Rob,

Did you try using the DxO 9 portrait profiles?

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

Yes, and they were not very pleasing to my eye.  Perhaps others can do better with them, but I would have to see examples in order to judge.

Rob
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Vladimirovich on November 22, 2013, 12:18:08 pm
BTW, I do not see you
I am not using DxO, so I directed him to the place where he has a good chance to get his question about DxO answered  :) ... as for the skin tone I am simply picking lab (A/B) values from the photos that I like (be those mine or not) and drive the color (skin) in my raw converter to those (in RPP or ACR, now that I have Lab readouts in ACR) readouts... I do not care much about clothing (if the color of the clothes suffers somewhat vs the "original" colors when I get my the skin that I want)... very simple.
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: robgo2 on November 22, 2013, 01:33:51 pm
I am not using DxO, so I directed him to the place where he has a good chance to get his question about DxO answered  :) ... as for the skin tone I am simply picking lab (A/B) values from the photos that I like (be those mine or not) and drive the color (skin) in my raw converter to those (in RPP or ACR, now that I have Lab readouts in ACR) readouts... I do not care much about clothing (if the color of the clothes suffers somewhat vs the "original" colors when I get my the skin that I want)... very simple.

RPP was my main raw convertor for about two years.  It is a great program that excels at white balance, but its functionality is very limited, thereby requiring extensive further editing in a secondary program.  That is why I switched to Photo Ninja.  I am very enthusiastic about PN, because it produces superior results with relatively little effort.  Those who are skeptical have, for the most part, never given it a serious trial.

Rob
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Vladimirovich on November 22, 2013, 02:22:50 pm
Those who are skeptical have, for the most part, never given it a serious trial.

what about silkypix, why not throw some exotics in the mix = http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5907/1jmr.jpg

(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5907/1jmr.jpg)
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: robgo2 on November 22, 2013, 04:56:22 pm
what about silkypix, why not throw some exotics in the mix = http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5907/1jmr.jpg

(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5907/1jmr.jpg)

For those who want to see a comparable screenshot from Photo Ninja.  For this example, I boosted shadows very slightly.  No other adjustments.  I'm not sure why it displays as a large thumbnail, but click to see at full size.  Better yet, download the complete file from Dropbox.

Rob
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Vladimirovich on November 22, 2013, 05:08:32 pm
I have too much sharp and you too much NR  :D
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: robgo2 on November 22, 2013, 05:29:32 pm
I have too much sharp and you too much NR  :D

Doh!  I had not even noticed that I had Photo Ninja's luminance NR on by default.  Here is another screenshot with it turned off.

Rob

Edit:  And here is a link to the download from Dropbox of the newer version (no luminance NR and slight boost of shadows):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zkuhkzdqwulw0tp/Italy2013-138v0_v2.jpg
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: MichaelEzra on November 27, 2013, 12:24:59 am
Here is a quick conversion in RawTherapee using adjustments via CIECAM02 module:

Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Stephen G on November 27, 2013, 01:20:47 am
I've been using DXO on and off since version 3.5. To summarize my experience: sometimes I hate it, sometimes it just nails an image in a way that's very hard to achieve in any other converter.

How's this look? all the important conversion settings are visible down the right.
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: smahn on November 29, 2013, 12:12:43 pm
Redcrown,

Sorry, but I have not received your emails or a PM.  But you have a good suggestion re posting the link for others to download as well.  I processed your file using Photo Ninja's Portrait preset.  No other adjustments were made, so what you see is right out of the box.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/qyq3oj6xmk8l6is/Italy2013-138v0_v1.jpg?dl=1&token_hash=AAHNk6M_G7iqqpU5D8WOXP_UwVydYTyY1IiYvl-P5JbQmg

Rob







I think this image simply shows the plain default settings, the portrait settings are warmer. But I'm new to PN so maybe it's a mistake on my end,
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: robgo2 on November 30, 2013, 05:08:34 pm


I think this image simply shows the plain default settings, the portrait settings are warmer. But I'm new to PN so maybe it's a mistake on my end,

No, I'm quite certain that my version from Photo Ninja uses the Portrait preset.  However, you may have the Neutral preset selected as your default, so that the image will open that way.  Try downloading the original raw file from Redcrown, and open it in PN alternating between Neutral and Portrait presets.  You will clearly see the difference and I think will prefer Portrait for this image.

Rob
Title: My DxO 9 example
Post by: robgo2 on November 30, 2013, 05:40:10 pm
I have already posted examples processed in Photo Ninja, but to be fair, I thought that I would also present my best effort with DxO 9.  I used the Portrait Standard preset and made adjustments to exposure, contrast, midtones, highlights, and shadows.  I also set microcontrast to 0, so as to more closely match what I did in Photo Ninja.  Here is the link to the the full image file in Dropbox available for download:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o8yfnu6pvx4j3q9/Italy2013-138v0_DxO.jpg

And below is the screenshot from DxO.  The DxO version is not bad, but for my money, Photo Ninja is the clear winner, not just in terms of skintones, but also in terms of overall rendering.

Rob
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: smahn on November 30, 2013, 06:52:02 pm
No, I'm quite certain that my version from Photo Ninja uses the Portrait preset.  However, you may have the Neutral preset selected as your default, so that the image will open that way.  Try downloading the original raw file from Redcrown, and open it in PN alternating between Neutral and Portrait presets.  You will clearly see the difference and I think will prefer Portrait for this image.

Rob

Yo Rob,

Sorry, you're right. I must have messed with other settings on my way to finding the portrait preset. With starting over I see that yours was accurately the portrait preset. Sorry to trouble you.
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Tiger1 on January 17, 2014, 05:15:25 am
I find these things impossible because I don't know the actual real skin tones so I have nothing to match.  Even the T-shirt worn can be a pale colour in reality but I can make it anything I want in processing.

So what do you want? Reality? Punch? Surreal colors?
It also depends if you have your monitor properly colour calibrated as what you are seeing on the screen, others may be seeing something completely different.

Just my 2 cents worth!
Title: Re: DXO Optics 9 - skintone challenge
Post by: Fine_Art on January 17, 2014, 11:56:15 pm
Another RT conversion. Screenshot to MS Paint.